Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1315 Old 08-16-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

My rudimentary tests have confirmed my naked eye observation that the ST60 suffers from lip sync issues caused by the unbelievably high input lag.

Someone please answer me this question: How the hell can CNET make this TV their highest recommendation ever while it has visible lip sync issues?

RETURNING the TV Today. I don't care how great of a value or how astonishing the picture quality is...i will not accept owning my primary TV with lip sync issues.

This issue does NOT just impact gamers. I don't game. I watching movies and regular TV. This is my first experience with input lag, and from now on it will be high on my priority list when shopping for a new TV.

if theres sync issues how are you connecting? hdmi? are you routing the signal through anything else whatsoever? the TV processes audio and video at the same time so unless you are doing something different as far as how it is hooked up your problem is unique. you are the first person who has experienced this without using a reciever.
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post #992 of 1315 Old 08-16-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

if theres sync issues how are you connecting? hdmi? are you routing the signal through anything else whatsoever? the TV processes audio and video at the same time so unless you are doing something different as far as how it is hooked up your problem is unique. you are the first person who has experienced this without using a reciever.

yes. Fios straight into the TV using HDMI

I understand i'm the first that posted about this, but it doesn't mean i am out of bounds. I edit videos and music videos in my leisure so i have a very precise eye, and i'm used to picking up discrepencies 1/10 of a second and lower...so i am incredibly sensitive to what we're talking about.

What's interesting is that i used comparisons with my Sony XBR-2 and an older Samsung LED...playing the same content from the same source using the same wires...one at a time...no splitting. i even switched blu ray players and changed wires thinking equip could be causing the problem...same results. I recorded each segment onto my video camera and uploaded it into my computer, to more closely examine the results. The Sony and Samsung were right on the money, the ST-60 wasn't, i don';t have exact numbers and measurements but the ST-60 is off by a .10 second or so. This will NOT be a big deal for most viewers, but unfortunately it drives me crazy mad.gif I'm just happy that i found it was the ST-60 and not my eyes or brain playing tricks on me.
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post #993 of 1315 Old 08-16-2013, 11:46 AM
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I also notice a tiny bit of lag or mismatch of the voices and lip movements on the TV, using the TV's speakers. It's very slight, but sometimes I do notice if I watch the mouths very closely.
I've seen it mentioned on this thread or one of the other threads before as well.
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post #994 of 1315 Old 08-16-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

My rudimentary tests have confirmed my naked eye observation that the ST60 suffers from lip sync issues caused by the unbelievably high input lag.

Someone please answer me this question: How the hell can CNET make this TV their highest recommendation ever while it has visible lip sync issues?

RETURNING the TV Today. I don't care how great of a value or how astonishing the picture quality is...i will not accept owning my primary TV with lip sync issues.

This issue does NOT just impact gamers. I don't game. I watching movies and regular TV. This is my first experience with input lag, and from now on it will be high on my priority list when shopping for a new TV.

because most people use receivers and most receivers have lip sync timing adjustments.

you can adjust lip sync but you cannot make a tv have a better picture, assuming both tvs are calibrated
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post #995 of 1315 Old 08-16-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

yes. Fios straight into the TV using HDMI

I understand i'm the first that posted about this, but it doesn't mean i am out of bounds. I edit videos and music videos in my leisure so i have a very precise eye, and i'm used to picking up discrepencies 1/10 of a second and lower...so i am incredibly sensitive to what we're talking about.

What's interesting is that i used comparisons with my Sony XBR-2 and an older Samsung LED...playing the same content from the same source using the same wires...one at a time...no splitting. i even switched blu ray players and changed wires thinking equip could be causing the problem...same results. I recorded each segment onto my video camera and uploaded it into my computer, to more closely examine the results. The Sony and Samsung were right on the money, the ST-60 wasn't, i don';t have exact numbers and measurements but the ST-60 is off by a .10 second or so. This will NOT be a big deal for most viewers, but unfortunately it drives me crazy mad.gif I'm just happy that i found it was the ST-60 and not my eyes or brain playing tricks on me.

please provide links so that we can review the video you took. thank you
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post #996 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 05:56 AM
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I'm starting to think Eddie is not as truthful as he would like us to think.
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post #997 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

I'm starting to think Eddie is not as truthful as he would like us to think.

Not truthful? Get lost.

If you own an ST60, look all it takes is your two eyes to see there is a discrepancy with lip movement and associated speech.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's image of their prized TV. aside from this issue TV kicks ass, actually it pains me to return it...but i'm glad i noticed this issue while i was in the return window.
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post #998 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

Not truthful? Get lost.

If you own an ST60, look all it takes is your two eyes to see there is a discrepancy with lip movement and associated speech.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's image of their prized TV. aside from this issue TV kicks ass, actually it pains me to return it...but i'm glad i noticed this issue while i was in the return window.

I picked up my 55" st60 last week and Im loving this TV so far.

Dont know if its in my head now but since I read this thread I think I can see a slight delay in the speech if I look very closely would have honestly not noticed if I hadnt read about it here first.

Really dont want to return this tv over this issue if there is a way around it. Currently running my fios cable directly into the TV through hdmi and using the television speakers. If I hook it up through a AV receiver I can sync the delay through that if it becomes bothersome to me from what I understand? Is this accurate?

thanks
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post #999 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 09:10 AM
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I picked up my 55" st60 last week and Im loving this TV so far.

Dont know if its in my head now but since I read this thread I think I can see a slight delay in the speech if I look very closely would have honestly not noticed if I hadnt read about it here first.

Really dont want to return this tv over this issue if there is a way around it. Currently running my fios cable directly into the TV through hdmi and using the television speakers. If I hook it up through a AV receiver I can sync the delay through that if it becomes bothersome to me from what I understand? Is this accurate?

thanks

all i know is, i tried all the settings on this TV and nothing in the tv can perfectly sync the lips and audio...including game mode. The recevier is certaintly an option. I can't offer any good advice as my receiver doesn't have an audio sync feature. I hope it works out for you...i hope you can keep the TV as the ST60 really is a gorgeous display.
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post #1000 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 09:31 AM
 
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Maybe they will get something right with the 2014 models. Ill prolly just pick up a 60"s60 and if I wanna dig deeper I'm skipping the st60 and going right for VT. But the S60 is really all I need since I'm not home
To often and have school but it would be nice
To pop a Blu Ray in on the VT60
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post #1001 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

all i know is, i tried all the settings on this TV and nothing in the tv can perfectly sync the lips and audio...including game mode. The recevier is certaintly an option. I can't offer any good advice as my receiver doesn't have an audio sync feature. I hope it works out for you...i hope you can keep the TV as the ST60 really is a gorgeous display.

Do you still have your S60?
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post #1002 of 1315 Old 08-19-2013, 11:31 AM
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I took a close look at my ST60 this weekend, standing one foot in front of the TV watching CNN and looking at the news announcer's lips to gauge sync issues.

I do think the sync is slightly off in terms of voice and picture. I then went upstairs to my older plasma television, and the sync is slightly off of that one too.

Is the ST60 worse than my other TV? I don't think so, and I don't know. I know that I'm one of those people that when I see a problem, I can't focus away from it and I watched the ST60 the rest of the weekend and didn't think about it again ... it's so minutely off-sync and again, my other TV shares the same condition.

For what it's worth, I'm in the TV and film production business and have spent a lot of time in editing rooms and in sound mixes, often being the most vigilant person present in pointing out to everybody else when the dialogue is rubbery (voice not synced to lips) so before Eddie Arkadian's posts, I would have said that I'm as sensitive to this as anybody can be.

It may be that I'm not as sensitive to this as I thought, but from my examination of it, the only way you could really tell is that the mouth is still moving ever-so-slightly after somebody is talking. But literally, I needed to be a foot in front of my TV watching CNN to notice this.
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post #1003 of 1315 Old 08-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Arkadian View Post

Not truthful? Get lost.

If you own an ST60, look all it takes is your two eyes to see there is a discrepancy with lip movement and associated speech.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's image of their prized TV. aside from this issue TV kicks ass, actually it pains me to return it...but i'm glad i noticed this issue while i was in the return window.

Post the videos... I've looked at 3 videos so far and nothing interms of what you are talking about so... the proof that you claim to have is all i'm asking
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post #1004 of 1315 Old 08-23-2013, 12:12 AM
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Just got my 60ST60 delivered today. Wanted to see what all this fuss was about regarding lag before I ran slides to do my break-in. I have 1.5k hours played on BF3 and after playing a 40 min match I can honestly say that I felt no difference in my gameplay what-so-ever. It felt just as smooth and fluid as if I was playing on my DLP. It wasn't even on Game Mode! I knew it wasn't going to be an problem. That's why I didn't even let this (so-called) issue be .001% of a deciding factor. I really feel sorry for the people who turn away from this model because of what all the other people are saying. They just need to get better and aim for the head.
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post #1005 of 1315 Old 08-23-2013, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hoosierdaddie View Post

Just got my 60ST60 delivered today. Wanted to see what all this fuss was about regarding lag before I ran slides to do my break-in. I have 1.5k hours played on BF3 and after playing a 40 min match I can honestly say that I felt no difference in my gameplay what-so-ever. It felt just as smooth and fluid as if I was playing on my DLP. It wasn't even on Game Mode! I knew it wasn't going to be an problem. That's why I didn't even let this (so-called) issue be .001% of a deciding factor. I really feel sorry for the people who turn away from this model because of what all the other people are saying. They just need to get better and aim for the head.

Yep, some people have way overblown the issue. I recently just played through the brand new DuckTales Remastered, which is an absolutely amazing 2D Platformer, and had no issues what so ever with input lag on it either. DuckTales Remastered is just totally gorgeous on the ST60, by the way. The art and animation is beautiful.
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post #1006 of 1315 Old 08-23-2013, 12:44 AM
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Yep, some people have way overblown the issue. I recently just played through the brand new DuckTales Remastered, which is an absolutely amazing 2D Platformer, and had no issues what so ever with input lag on it either. DuckTales Remastered is just totally gorgeous on the ST60, by the way. The art and animation is beautiful.
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Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

Yep, some people have way overblown the issue. I recently just played through the brand new DuckTales Remastered, which is an absolutely amazing 2D Platformer, and had no issues what so ever with input lag on it either. DuckTales Remastered is just totally gorgeous on the ST60, by the way. The art and animation is beautiful.


Way way way, overblown. I sat in the spawn the first 5 minutes and just tapped the trigger button over and over looking for any sort of input lag. I couldn't tell a difference from this panel to my DLP. I really couldn't. That also went for jumping, turning, shooting pod rockets from the chopper, melee, etc. Just no difference at all. This panel is a gem and I think these so-called "professional gamers" on here are misinforming a lot of people.
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post #1007 of 1315 Old 08-23-2013, 06:54 AM
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The input lag isn't a made-up issue.

I notice it on my ST50 with game mode on -- and the ST60 has double the lag. I think this thread serves as more of a heads up than a warning to not buy it, and I'm glad the thread was here.

Ultimately, try it before you buy it.
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post #1008 of 1315 Old 08-23-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

Agreed with both of you. these people are way over doing it on the lag. it's quite ridiculous. if you claim this bothers you then you're not a real gamer to begin with. if you have to squeez 30ms out of a game to win (which by the way is way below human response time) then you suck at gaming, and most likely life. seriously these people need to stop. others are missing out on a great TV because of these nuts. again stop whining because you can't game on the same level or adapt with the rest of us. 30ms difference... seriously you suck .

Lol, the other day my nephew who is 11 years old was telling me he has to have input lag to play Minecraft or something like that, I don't think he even knows what input lag is ,lol
I find it funny as well, 30ms is good enough, but serious gamers apparently can't win a game, they need 20ms or less.

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post #1009 of 1315 Old 08-24-2013, 08:20 AM
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For what it's worth, I picked up this TV Wednesday night. Last night, I noticed the lip syncing issue, and it was pretty bad (bad enough that even my wife commented on it). None of the recommended settings seemed to do the trick.

So I turned off the TV, and turned it back on again. That seemed to clear up a great deal of the problem. Perhaps one of the settings isn't getting properly flagged (or the lag builds up over time), and a "reboot" resets it? In such a case, it seems like a firmware update might help quite a bit, so I'm holding out hope that will be the case. Until then, it seems a periodic power cycle solves most of the problem for me.

That said, I wish all of you wouldn't be quite so dismissive. The input lag is an issue. Period. Whether or not it's an issue someone should care about is personal preference, but acting like no one should care about it is just rude. Personally, I think it's an important enough issue that people should know about it, regardless. It's a lot of money to spend on anything, and you should know as much about it as possible, good and bad. I'm still early into having the TV, so I haven't played any games yet, but I'm sure the lag will be noticeable. Whether or not I can adapt is going to be the question.
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post #1010 of 1315 Old 08-24-2013, 04:45 PM
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I also notice lip synch issues sometimes, with the audio coming from the TV.
But I don't notice input lag when playing games. Input lag (video processing) and the lip synch of audio/video coming out of the TV itself, are separate issues.
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post #1011 of 1315 Old 08-25-2013, 06:42 PM
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And let me chime in on this also. I posted about it in the other (owners) thread.

My two month old TC-P60ST60 has the lip-sync issue, but it takes some time for it to manifest itself, and this is without a receiver in the mix. Just output from a cable box to the TV and audio right out of the TVs own speakers.

Hitting the off button and back on fixes it. So anyone saying it ain't happening is delusional, not us.
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post #1012 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat Scratch View Post

And let me chime in on this also. I posted about it in the other (owners) thread.

My two month old TC-P60ST60 has the lip-sync issue, but it takes some time for it to manifest itself, and this is without a receiver in the mix. Just output from a cable box to the TV and audio right out of the TVs own speakers.

Hitting the off button and back on fixes it. So anyone saying it ain't happening is delusional, not us.

no one said it wasn't happening. eddie said he had video and i wanted to see it. Mine should be delivered this week i will test everything and post links to what i find. we need more video of these things because spouting numbers is decieving. these people had me worried until i saw some side by side comparison videos.
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post #1013 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

no one said it wasn't happening. eddie said he had video and i wanted to see it. Mine should be delivered this week i will test everything and post links to what i find. we need more video of these things because spouting numbers is decieving. these people had me worried until i saw some side by side comparison videos.

So, you're claiming definitively it's not an issue and don't even own the TV? I saw all your posts that were apparently deleted from the thread in my email.

I can feel the lag on my ST50 when game mode is off, which has similar lag to the ST60 with the game mode on. Not so much when playing a console game or using an analog joystick. It's extremely noticeable on PC mouse/keyboard games as well as retro games.
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post #1014 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

I also notice lip synch issues sometimes, with the audio coming from the TV.
But I don't notice input lag when playing games. Input lag (video processing) and the lip synch of audio/video coming out of the TV itself, are separate issues.

They should not be separate issues. In either case, the TV is behind in processing the video output. What is weird is that the effect when watching video, the lip sync problem seems to be cumulative, and that power cycling resolves it. The input lag is what it is, but it wouldn't surprise me if that got worse over time as well. But both are just different symptoms of the same core problem ... for whatever reason, the TV just can't process the screen output fast enough.

FYI: Played some Disney Infinity with my wife this weekend, co-op on the same screen. There was definitely a bit of lag, but it wasn't intolerable. My wife never commented on it, which is a good thing, since she bought the TV for me and she's every bit the gamer I am. wink.gif Haven't played any online games or shooters, yet.
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post #1015 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 01:46 PM
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Input lag would be very hard to tell on a game like Infinity, with button press turning into a character animation or menu response. We're only talking about 1 frame or 1/30th or so of a second more than on other TVs. Seeing side by side it's even hard to tell in many cases between this TV and one with less lag.


To clarify my comment about lip synch being off, I've noticed two different kinds of sync issues. One is the picture being very noticeably out of sync with the audio. This happened yesterday, when I turned on the TV before the DVR. Turning the TV off then on again fixed it.

The other kind is a very slight out of sync I notice sometimes, with certain programming. It's very subtle.


It's interesting that on my receiver, I use about 50ms to match audio to picture for TV (audio from DVR), but 80ms for my PS3 (HMDI splitter going to both receiver and TV, but was still 80ms when HDMI went to receiver then out to TV). Plus, when I have both TV speakers and receiver speakers on, I hear a slight echo from it being slightly out of sync.
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post #1016 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 01:52 PM
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Finally will get my 65ST60 on Wednesday afternoon....man I hope I don't find any issues with it. I had a bad 42G15, a failed 60GT50 and a roaring load 65ZT60 (returned).
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post #1017 of 1315 Old 08-26-2013, 03:00 PM
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Finally will get my 65ST60 on Wednesday afternoon....man I hope I don't find any issues with it. I had a bad 42G15, a failed 60GT50 and a roaring load 65ZT60 (returned).

Wow you've had some luck with TV's. eek.gif hope this one works out for you.

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post #1018 of 1315 Old 08-27-2013, 01:56 PM
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With all this talk about input lag, I understand that it has to do with software rather than hardware. Can anyone with software expertise touch on this? I was thinking theoretically, would there be less input lag on a 50" as opposed to a larger set (ie 55, 60, or 65)? Or am I just completely off base with this? tongue.gif

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post #1019 of 1315 Old 08-27-2013, 02:02 PM
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I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The resolution is the same.
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

So, you're claiming definitively it's not an issue and don't even own the TV? I saw all your posts that were apparently deleted from the thread in my email.

I can feel the lag on my ST50 when game mode is off, which has similar lag to the ST60 with the game mode on. Not so much when playing a console game or using an analog joystick. It's extremely noticeable on PC mouse/keyboard games as well as retro games.

I never claimed anything except that It's not as bad as it sounds when people start spouting the numbers as compared to when you see the side by side comparisons... I'm looking for videos. i couldn't care less about 1 frame or 74ms now, and I almost canceled my order because of the way people were talking about it until i found a guy who did some great side by side comparisons with an st30. seriously claiming that this is harming your gaming is nonsense. use your st50 and add me on psn i'll own you on whatever you want with an st60 or worse. deal with it and stop complaining. adapt or go home.
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