Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not the ONLY reason, I also have a pink blob. Can't stand it. But why would I exchange it for more of the same if I'm not happy with the performance as well?
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post #92 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 09:44 PM
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Yeah, I really only meant to quote the beginning... Referring to the size of the VT and ZT
My mistake.biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

It's not the ONLY reason, I also have a pink blob. Can't stand it. But why would I exchange it for more of the same if I'm not happy with the performance as well?
So you can buy more time to hack the firmware yourself if Panny doesn't help. wink.gif
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post #93 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't hack. You'd think it would be pretty easy though, I'm going to assume it's a Linux kernel with a bunch of apps, wonder if they can simply be deleted out of the firmware, maybe even post install if there was a way inside it. I'd love to see a before and after. I also wonder about how large the firmware is for the voice recognition, whether it's 100% synthesized or if there is a recording for numerous words the TV will respond with.
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post #94 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 10:03 PM
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I'd exchange it for the weird blob alone. That doesn't sound right.
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post #95 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 10:51 PM
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so have we had anyone with a NA ST60 test the input lag like this yet?... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread

... and verify the set was in Game Mode (or other modes) with all the extra processing features (noise reduction, motion smoothing, etc. etc.) turned off?

i'd just hate to dismiss this st60 without seeing a concrete input lag test. especially after seeing cnet's glowing review.

edit: okay so i see a few folks have tested it and taken pictures. looks like that one guy got his EU model down to 50ms? that's tolerable... moonchilde, figure out how to better that on the NA model. cool.gif
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post #96 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I have no idea what to do in the slightest. I don't understand why mine would test so damn high. Something has to be wrong with my controlled environment. Every processing element is OFF, even the color matrix is set to native so there isn't any color correction processing going on. If you think about it, camera testing is always "faster" than the LB device by about half, so that means instead of getting 40 ms via camera I'm getting 80, which means that the LB device would clock it by about 110 since it usually adds about 20 to 30 ms of "correct" display lag? That's ridiculously high!

I hate to do it, but maybe I should test with my older Geforce 7900 which has component out instead of HDMI. Then I could test the component ports on the set, and if they're not laggy, then it's a HDMI thing. Bah, so much effort for so little gain.
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post #97 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I can't hack. You'd think it would be pretty easy though, I'm going to assume it's a Linux kernel with a bunch of apps, wonder if they can simply be deleted out of the firmware, maybe even post install if there was a way inside it. I'd love to see a before and after. I also wonder about how large the firmware is for the voice recognition, whether it's 100% synthesized or if there is a recording for numerous words the TV will respond with.
Agreed. Perhaps someone will figure out a way if Panny won't.

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so have we had anyone with a NA ST60 test the input lag like this yet?... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread

... and verify the set was in Game Mode (or other modes) with all the extra processing features (noise reduction, motion smoothing, etc. etc.) turned off?

i'd just hate to dismiss this st60 without seeing a concrete input lag test. especially after seeing cnet's glowing review.

edit: okay so i see a few folks have tested it and taken pictures. looks like that one guy got his EU model down to 50ms? that's tolerable... moonchilde, figure out how to better that on the NA model. cool.gif
The consensus based off of this forum and the respective S60/ST60 forums is that the S60 is lag-free, while the ST60 always has at least a bit of noticeable lag. Just how much it affects games depends on how sensitive the gamer is to it. However, more numbers like in your linked thread, would be welcome.

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Bah, so much effort for so little gain.
By this point, you're pretty much beating a dead horse until someone else with another setup can verify/challenge your NA results.
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post #98 of 1314 Old 04-13-2013, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Which is something I wish they would do. DisplayLag.com would be the best, because they actually have a Leo Bodnar device, although I'd like to see camera tests, too.
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post #99 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Which is something I wish they would do. DisplayLag.com would be the best, because they actually have a Leo Bodnar device, although I'd like to see camera tests, too.

I've emailed displaylag.com, asking them if they are going to test the ST60. As I've said before, I really don't notice input lag on the ST60. I am just curious to see an accurate measurement. I still haven't received a response (but I really didn't expect to)

Maybe if more people email them they will test it sooner. (Just a thought)

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post #100 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 10:25 AM
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Cant believe you guys are going to lose out on the near perfect picture quality for 30ms of extra lag..that you probably cant tell when playing online on a network thats mostly P2P like most games on XBL/PSN and use algorithms that are predictive. Unless youre playing Street Fighter competitively online (and the network code sucks to begin with) then i dont see why this is even an issue. At the very least try it for a month or whatever the return policy is and just play..an extra 30ms of input lag is such a small factor in games like COD..maybe more so in Halo, but you can overcome this easily with other things like strategy/positioning/tactics/mapcontrol/mindgames...

Jesus i remember playing Q1 over my 28.8kbps modem on 450ms+ ping with packet loss and still owning.
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post #101 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jerrolds View Post

Cant believe you guys are going to lose out on the near perfect picture quality for 30ms of extra lag..that you probably cant tell when playing online on a network thats mostly P2P like most games on XBL/PSN and use algorithms that are predictive. Unless youre playing Street Fighter competitively online (and the network code sucks to begin with) then i dont see why this is even an issue. At the very least try it for a month or whatever the return policy is and just play..an extra 30ms of input lag is such a small factor in games like COD..maybe more so in Halo, but you can overcome this easily with other things like strategy/positioning/tactics/mapcontrol/mindgames...

Jesus i remember playing Q1 over my 28.8kbps modem on 450ms+ ping with packet loss and still owning.

You act like we aren't willing to give it a chance. Have you seen the numbers I've posted? 80 to 100 ms average if my tests are accurate. If not, then it may be even laggier. I'm going to try a few things here in the coming weeks to see if I can eliminate as much room for error, but seriously... If the numbers are really that bad, then that affects offline way more than online. If you'd read the thread instead of coming in for a knee jerk reaction then you'd see that I've already posted the TV is "ok" for 60 fps games that don't require intensive timing. Most PC games will feel all right, especially games designed around 30 fps but are running at 60 fps on a PC. Games that will have an issue is 30 fps games and console games, it will feel noticeably sluggish at that point since the games will start hitting 200+ ms of input latency. That's not good for offline.

Still, for a TV of this calibur and expense, it shouldn't be 2x as laggy as the previous year or every other model in the 2013 line, those above and below it. C'mon man. There is only so much room for error, and if it was only 30 to 40 ms of input lag I'd agree with you completely, but it isn't as far as we know.
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post #102 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I've emailed displaylag.com, asking them if they are going to test the ST60. As I've said before, I really don't notice input lag on the ST60. I am just curious to see an accurate measurement. I still haven't received a response (but I really didn't expect to)

Maybe if more people email them they will test it sooner. (Just a thought)
I emailed them about a week back, no reply yet. But yes, the more the merrier.

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Cant believe you guys are going to lose out on the near perfect picture quality for 30ms of extra lag..that you probably cant tell when playing online on a network thats mostly P2P like most games on XBL/PSN and use algorithms that are predictive. Unless youre playing Street Fighter competitively online (and the network code sucks to begin with) then i dont see why this is even an issue. At the very least try it for a month or whatever the return policy is and just play..an extra 30ms of input lag is such a small factor in games like COD..maybe more so in Halo, but you can overcome this easily with other things like strategy/positioning/tactics/mapcontrol/mindgames...

Jesus i remember playing Q1 over my 28.8kbps modem on 450ms+ ping with packet loss and still owning.
Those tactics can only get you so far if your controls are sluggish in the "heat of battle". wink.gif
Keep in mind 450ms of ping is completely different than ~100ms of display lag. With the former, your problem is on a network level and you can still have responsive controls. With the latter, even with a super-low ping, you can't accurately aim or keep up with the game world around you. One can always (in theory) adjust, of course, but the delay will always be there.
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post #103 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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Judging by my eyes only the lag is similar to my previous UT50. Its not an issue with me. However some might be more sensitive.

Shouldn't high input lag also cause lip sync issues? I use htpc with analogue out to an integrated amp. I have no lip sync issue. So the lag can't be too bad right? BTW I have all unnecessary settings turned off.
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post #104 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

You act like we aren't willing to give it a chance. Have you seen the numbers I've posted? 80 to 100 ms average if my tests are accurate. If not, then it may be even laggier. I'm going to try a few things here in the coming weeks to see if I can eliminate as much room for error, but seriously... If the numbers are really that bad, then that affects offline way more than online. If you'd read the thread instead of coming in for a knee jerk reaction then you'd see that I've already posted the TV is "ok" for 60 fps games that don't require intensive timing. Most PC games will feel all right, especially games designed around 30 fps but are running at 60 fps on a PC. Games that will have an issue is 30 fps games and console games, it will feel noticeably sluggish at that point since the games will start hitting 200+ ms of input latency. That's not good for offline.

Still, for a TV of this calibur and expense, it shouldn't be 2x as laggy as the previous year or every other model in the 2013 line, those above and below it. C'mon man. There is only so much room for error, and if it was only 30 to 40 ms of input lag I'd agree with you completely, but it isn't as far as we know.

I agree with everything you say for sure - as im a pretty hardcore gamer, altho nowadays i play on a 120hz 1 input 0 panel processing (other than brightness) monitor - but the ST60 is such a great TV PQ wise...i dont think 50ms (at most 100ms) input lag is worth dumping it. That and todays games are MUCH more forgiving when it comes to lag. Yes i wouldnt expect to beat Mike Tyson in Punch Out on this TV, but for CoD/Halo/Madden/2k13 etc...the input lag is not enough to lose out on the ST60.

I agree that Game mode should definately cut input lag to at least the ST50 game mode levels (i own the 60ST50 as well)
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post #105 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 12:59 PM
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Cant believe you guys are going to lose out on the near perfect picture quality for 30ms of extra lag..

I can't believe it either, but here I am considering just that. Sucks they missed this aspect of the TV, and probably in favor of more smart tv apps few even care about.

I think my PS1 has approx 30ms. so with folks getting 80ms even with gaming mode, I'm looking at almost 3x the lag. And I game a lot. Have seen the 2 videos of the lag difference on this forum it makes it look pretty bad.

I'm not sure if this comparison works, but I was just watching something via USB, and I had to adjust the delay in my reciever to lipsync the sound. Adjusted it about 70ish+ ms. I can't imagine trying to game if that's the amount of difference.

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post #106 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 02:33 PM
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I can't believe it either, but here I am considering just that. Sucks they missed this aspect of the TV, and probably in favor of more smart tv apps few even care about.

I think my PS1 has approx 30ms. so with folks getting 80ms even with gaming mode, I'm looking at almost 3x the lag. And I game a lot. Have seen the 2 videos of the lag difference on this forum it makes it look pretty bad.

I'm not sure if this comparison works, but I was just watching something via USB, and I had to adjust the delay in my reciever to lipsync the sound. Adjusted it about 70ish+ ms. I can't imagine trying to game if that's the amount of difference.

Not to downplay the issue, but 3x an incredibly small amount of lag still won't add up to much. Games that are notoriously laggy won't be the best candidates, but most games, including 30fps console titles, should feel relatively responsive. I don't think you can honestly gauge much from those videos, other than the fact it's indeed not as responsive as a CRT. I'm not sure about the audio delay, but I suspect that's not a reliable testing method.
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post #107 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jerrolds View Post

I agree with everything you say for sure - as im a pretty hardcore gamer, altho nowadays i play on a 120hz 1 input 0 panel processing (other than brightness) monitor - but the ST60 is such a great TV PQ wise...i dont think 50ms (at most 100ms) input lag is worth dumping it. That and todays games are MUCH more forgiving when it comes to lag. Yes i wouldnt expect to beat Mike Tyson in Punch Out on this TV, but for CoD/Halo/Madden/2k13 etc...the input lag is not enough to lose out on the ST60.

I agree that Game mode should definately cut input lag to at least the ST50 game mode levels (i own the 60ST50 as well)

That's just it though, I don't just play modern games. I play all sorts of games, especially 2D titles where input lag is most noticeable. Not truly game breaking, but you definitely feel "off" when you play. I've already stated I think the TV is mostly ok for 60 fps 3D arcade style shooters, adventure, and sports games. PC gaming on it is ok because you can achieve those higher frame rates, however, when I played Assassin's Creed 3 on console it felt really sluggish. So did Shadow of the Colossus HD.

----

Instead of debating about whether or not the input lag is noticeable, how about we focus on facts? We have an amazing TV PQ wise here that is 2x as laggy as every other 2012 and 2013 Panny display. This alone should be a problem. This caliber of HDTV really deserves better and IF the input lag was fixed, it would be every gamer's dream HDTV. So why is such a great TV suffering such bad input lag? 70+ ms is just too much compared to other offerings, especially once you start factoring in other additional lags on top of it.
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post #108 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 03:22 PM
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Instead of debating about whether or not the input lag is noticeable, how about we focus on facts? We have an amazing TV PQ wise here that is 2x as laggy as every other 2012 and 2013 Panny display. This alone should be a problem. This caliber of HDTV really deserves better and IF the input lag was fixed, it would be every gamer's dream HDTV. So why is such a great TV suffering such bad input lag? 70+ ms is just too much compared to other offerings, especially once you start factoring in other additional lags on top of it.

Hopefully they fix the issue if they are able, but what other offerings are even remotely comparable to the ST60?
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post #109 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure yet. Not enough reviews. If only the GT60 was state side. Or, that 50 inch VT60, which is yet another Euro only model. Dammit! Maybe Sammy has something above the F5500 that could compare and not be too much more expensive.
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post #110 of 1314 Old 04-14-2013, 03:27 PM
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Not sure yet. Not enough reviews. If only the GT60 was state side. Or, that 50 inch VT60, which is yet another Euro only model. Dammit! Maybe Sammy has something above the F5500 that could compare and not be too much more expensive.

Yeah, it's unfortunate there doesn't seem to be a single alternative for a similar price and quality.
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post #111 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 11:50 AM
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I will definitely be following this issue. I am looking for a 50/55 and a 60" plasmas. Possibly two 60" plasma's. What for my finished basement and one for my living room in my new house that I'm moving into at the end of May this year.

After reading the review on plasma tv buying guide for the ST60 I was really set on getting the ST60 until I read the section about the input lag.

I play games ranging from NES to xbox 360/ps3. I play all kinds of games from action adventure to fps. I am very sensitive to input lag when I game on my PC. I'm sure I would notice it less at 14" away on my couch, but still for a tv that costs as much as these sets do ... it shouldn't have this large of input lag.

The thing is I don't want to spend over $2k on a tv. I would prefer to spend closer to $1,600 or less on each set. Which is why this set was the sweet spot.

The bummer part is that Samsung doesn't seem to offer anything to compete with this set at all. Their lineup goes straight from their 5300/5500 series to their 8500 series. Unless I'm missing something ... where is their 6 and 7 series tvs this year for plasma?

Also, looks like LG isn't really offering anything to compete with Panasonic for plasma in this price range either.

I was really hoping my next tvs would be plasma. Do I have to look at LED/LCD. I don't really want too because it seems like they are alot more expensive and you don't get as much value. Like finding a good LED/LCD in this price range in a decent size would be challenging.

Confused on what to do ...
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post #112 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 12:29 PM
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I will definitely be following this issue. I am looking for a 50/55 and a 60" plasmas. Possibly two 60" plasma's. What for my finished basement and one for my living room in my new house that I'm moving into at the end of May this year.

After reading the review on plasma tv buying guide for the ST60 I was really set on getting the ST60 until I read the section about the input lag.

I play games ranging from NES to xbox 360/ps3. I play all kinds of games from action adventure to fps. I am very sensitive to input lag when I game on my PC. I'm sure I would notice it less at 14" away on my couch, but still for a tv that costs as much as these sets do ... it shouldn't have this large of input lag.

The thing is I don't want to spend over $2k on a tv. I would prefer to spend closer to $1,600 or less on each set. Which is why this set was the sweet spot.

The bummer part is that Samsung doesn't seem to offer anything to compete with this set at all. Their lineup goes straight from their 5300/5500 series to their 8500 series. Unless I'm missing something ... where is their 6 and 7 series tvs this year for plasma?

Also, looks like LG isn't really offering anything to compete with Panasonic for plasma in this price range either.

I was really hoping my next tvs would be plasma. Do I have to look at LED/LCD. I don't really want too because it seems like they are alot more expensive and you don't get as much value. Like finding a good LED/LCD in this price range in a decent size would be challenging.

Confused on what to do ...

Honestly, by the looks of it, the value of this TV won't be beat. My hype was squashed a bit by the input lag information, but based on the input of multiple gamers, I'm not too worried. Input lag has a strong factor in older games, but newer console games will be affected less than you would believe. Even if the total input lag were to reach 250ms from start to finish (with all factors accounted for), that's still faster than the blink of an eye. It might lack PC game responsiveness, but its far far from unresponsive. Also, now that is seems the problem is software related, there is a small chance it could be fixed (Don't buy expecting a fix however). The videos here demonstrating the input lag of the S60 vs St60 are nonsense and should not be taken seriously. Lag that noticeable would be 500ms+, not 50.
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post #113 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 12:44 PM
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Honestly, by the looks of it, the value of this TV won't be beat. My hype was squashed a bit by the input lag information, but based on the input of multiple gamers, I'm not too worried. Input lag has a strong factor in older games, but newer console games will be affected less than you would believe. Even if the total input lag were to reach 250ms from start to finish (with all factors accounted for), that's still faster than the blink of an eye. It might lack PC game responsiveness, but its far far from unresponsive. Also, now that is seems the problem is software related, there is a small chance it could be fixed (Don't buy expecting a fix however). The videos here demonstrating the input lag of the S60 vs St60 are nonsense and should not be taken seriously. Lag that noticeable would be 500ms+, not 50.

You opinion does quelch my fears a bit. Since there are basically no competitors to the ST60 as far as PQ and value go.

I wonder how much I will notice. Currently I have a LG 32LH30 regular LCD tv that I bought in Feb 2010.

I just don't want to spend over $1,000 on a tv and regret it.
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post #114 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:02 PM
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The videos here demonstrating the input lag of the S60 vs St60 are nonsense and should not be taken seriously.
Nonsense...how so?
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post #115 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:14 PM
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Nonsense...how so?

First off we have no details of the environment or the equipment used to record. We do know game mode was disabled and pixel direct enabled. Pixel Direct, at the moment, does not work correctly on the ST60. It creates horrible edge halos either because it wasn't supposed to be a feature or it needs fixing. Second, if the setup was the exact same for both televisions, there should be no discernible difference (especially on a youtube video). Let's say the S60 is 35ms and the ST60 80ms. If the input source was handled the same, a difference of 45ms would not be visible on camera. You might be able to feel a difference if you went back and forth between the TVs (especially with older NES side-scrollers), but visually it can't be registered. Again, the human eye blinks at 300ms and that can be considered instantaneous.
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post #116 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:30 PM
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I think you're going a bit too far with the whole human eye thing. Just because the phrase blink of an eye is used to describe instantaneous doesn't mean that the blink of an eye is actually instantaneous. 300 ms is a full 0.3 of a second, and that sure as heck would be noticeable to anyone. The difference between 30 ms and 80-100 average of these is pretty big. That's anywhere from 5-7 frames if I'm doing this correctly. And old input lag thread on this forum said that anything over 4 frames is pretty bad and should be noticeable to most anyone. These TV's have at least 5 frames, and that's at best so far!
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post #117 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:33 PM
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First off we have no details of the environment or the equipment used to record. We do know game mode was disabled and pixel direct enabled. Pixel Direct, at the moment, does not work correctly on the ST60. It creates horrible edge halos either because it wasn't supposed to be a feature or it needs fixing. Second, if the setup was the exact same for both televisions, there should be no discernible difference (especially on a youtube video). Let's say the S60 is 35ms and the ST60 80ms. If the input source was handled the same, a difference of 45ms would not be visible on camera. You might be able to feel a difference if you went back and forth between the TVs (especially with older NES side-scrollers), but visually it can't be registered. Again, the human eye blinks at 300ms and that can be considered instantaneous.
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I think you're going a bit too far with the whole human eye thing. Just because the phrase blink of an eye is used to describe instantaneous doesn't mean that the blink of an eye is actually instantaneous. 300 ms is a full 0.3 of a second, and that sure as heck would be noticeable to anyone. The difference between 30 ms and 80-100 average of these is pretty big. That's anywhere from 5-7 frames if I'm doing this correctly. And old input lag thread on this forum said that anything over 4 frames is pretty bad and should be noticeable to most anyone. These TV's have at least 5 frames, and that's at best so far!
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post #118 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I think you're going a bit too far with the whole human eye thing. Just because the phrase blink of an eye is used to describe instantaneous doesn't mean that the blink of an eye is actually instantaneous. 300 ms is a full 0.3 of a second, and that sure as heck would be noticeable to anyone. The difference between 30 ms and 80-100 average of these is pretty big. That's anywhere from 5-7 frames if I'm doing this correctly. And old input lag thread on this forum said that anything over 4 frames is pretty bad and should be noticeable to most anyone. These TV's have at least 5 frames, and that's at best so far!

Consciously take note of how fast you blink. It's tremendously fast, and slightly noticeable. I'm only providing a frame of reference for the video. If the videos were a fair comparison, and the results actually looked that sluggish side by side, we would be dealing with a difference of 300ms+. We know objectively, that's not the case.
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post #119 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:37 PM
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See below.

Thanks, but I think I can manage to find responses myself.
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post #120 of 1314 Old 04-15-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Consciously take note of how fast you blink. It's tremendously fast, and slightly noticeable. I'm only providing a frame of reference for the video. If the videos were a fair comparison, and the results actually looked that sluggish side by side, we would be dealing with a difference of 300ms+. We know objectively, that's not the case.

I think that's a pretty slow time for a blink...maybe full start of the movement to full finish. Can you blink more than 4 times in one second? If so than you're not blinking at 300 ms. You're doing it faster. I think the frame of reference is somewhat off. I was also a bit skeptical that the videos were entirely accurate, but I think we sometimes underestimate these small time frames as they really start to add up.

I really hope you are right about it not being an issue, as the black level is just what I want (and can actually afford!), PQ seems outstanding, 3D, and I can afford a larger size. But as I sit there last night for example and play "Injustice: Gods Among Us" and enter in combos in training mode, I think about that lag time of 0.1 of a second and how fast these inputs are, and I cringe a bit...

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