Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1314 Old 01-05-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff19342 View Post

One of the cheapest (& highly rated) soundbars with HDMI is the Sony HTCT260H.

Thanks for the recommendation. I did not see where this unit has the ability to adjust the vocal delay like some receivers?
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post #1262 of 1314 Old 01-05-2014, 07:35 AM
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Doing little more research I saw a suggestion that applies to my Comcast RNG110 cable box. Going into the cable box's menu (box off, press menu with TV on) I changed to HDMI audio setting to L-PCM from Auto. Seems to have worked or at least close enough for me, I've tried cable and Netflix app so far. Not perfect perfect, but damn close. Now I have to see if it starts to get worse over time as many have reported. Not ready to celebrate quite yet.
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post #1263 of 1314 Old 01-05-2014, 08:42 AM
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No I don't think any of the affordable soundbars have audio delay adjustment. However the Panny can communicate with the source & soundbar over HDMI when connected to Input 2 which supports ARC (audio return channel). This feedback enables the Panny to perform lip sync.

Again this only works with HDMI ARC supporting components. That Sony soundbar is about as cheap you'll find with HDMI ARC.

Due to piracy, electronics manufacturers are pressured to not supply unadulterated digital signals over optical or coax, steering us toward HDMI for audio too with its inherent anti-piracy signal filtering.

So I would recommend finding a soundbar with HDMI (resisting temptation to grab in unequipped soundbars that will be on clearance racks). Hopefully that will solve your lip sync issue.
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post #1264 of 1314 Old 01-05-2014, 09:33 AM
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I noticed when I watch movies from my USB(don't have regular television , so can't comment on this) , sometimes when there are more sudden movements, like people running or moving hands fast, picture around those limbs starts to blurr nad lag, is this normal, will this stop after 200 hours or is it problem with my ST60? It doesn't happen always, but around 5% of the time it does. And on my other tv,LG, I hadn't noticed those problems, maybe they happen 0.5% of the time. Also, when I watch 3d movie, I don't have those problems.
All settings are on factory,I haven't messed or calibrated anything yet.

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post #1265 of 1314 Old 01-06-2014, 06:29 AM
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Quick point of clarification to prevent possible confusion...don't forget the H at the end of Sony HTCT260H when you search.

 

Sony originally sold the HTCT260 (sans H) which was widely reviewed and highly rated. Sony recently added HDMI to the unit & tacked on an H to the part number.

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post #1266 of 1314 Old 01-08-2014, 06:04 PM
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Thanks for the info Jeff. Haven't watched much since the weekend except House of Cards on Netflix and while the sync is better than before it's not perfect. Enough to be distracting, but I could be hyper-focusing at this point! Think I'll hang tight and see how it behaves, and then buy the Sony 260H if needed. Really don't want to return this.
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post #1267 of 1314 Old 01-08-2014, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jeff19342 View Post

No I don't think any of the affordable soundbars have audio delay adjustment. However the Panny can communicate with the source & soundbar over HDMI when connected to Input 2 which supports ARC (audio return channel). This feedback enables the Panny to perform lip sync.

Again this only works with HDMI ARC supporting components. That Sony soundbar is about as cheap you'll find with HDMI ARC.

Due to piracy, electronics manufacturers are pressured to not supply unadulterated digital signals over optical or coax, steering us toward HDMI for audio too with its inherent anti-piracy signal filtering.

So I would recommend finding a soundbar with HDMI (resisting temptation to grab in unequipped soundbars that will be on clearance racks). Hopefully that will solve your lip sync issue.
Just to make sure I have this right. I would have my Comcast box plugged into HDMI 1; my BluRay plugged into HDMI 3 and my Sony 260H plugged into HDMI 2(ARC)?
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post #1268 of 1314 Old 01-09-2014, 08:10 AM
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Sorry 5881, but I don't think so. I believe the HDMI ARC connection is aimed for a daisy-chain setup (anticipating a future with all electronics sporting HDMI ARC ins & outs) or people connecting to a home theater receiver that does the switching. There are also higher end soundbars with switching capability, such as the Yamaha YSP-2200 ($700 online).

 

Info on HDMI ARC is sparse and confusing. I'm not so sure the manufacturers even get it. It seems crazy to me that just Vizio offers an affordable true 5.1 soundbar with a wireless sub and only just announced at CES 2014 a version with HDMI ARC (and sized appropriately for a 60"+ TV).

 

You can check out:

http://hdguru.com/what-is-hdmi-arc-and-what-does-it-do-for-your-hdtv/

http://hdguru.com/hdmi-audio-return-channel-arc-for-your-hdtv-explained/

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/hdmi-audio-return-channel

 

Another option if the Yamaha is over budget, is running everything to the cheap Sony soundbar via an HDMI Switch (that also supports ARC). Googling "HDMI Switch Audio Return Channel)" takes you right there. It's $74. Theoretically ARC would enable the switch to work automatically, but I don't have any experience with this switch.

 

The cheapest switching soundbar I've found is Panasonic's own SC-HTB770S, which is now on their Website for $300 (was $400). It has 3 HDMI inputs, supports ARC, Dolby, DTS, VIERA Link, Bluetooth, wireless sub...sounds like the whole package. If only it had rear speakers and good reviews... I do take reviews with a grain of salt, but the specs in the owner's manual corroborate a "thin sound" with 25W driving 2.25 inch "woofers" (and their 300W advertised spec coming at TEN % THD...ouch my ears hurt just reading that.)

 

But if lip sync is your primary concern, not Hi-Fi nirvana, the 770S might be the best choice for you. It's obviously going to sound vastly better than the ST60's god-awful internal speakers.

 

 

P.S. My setup is same as yours, except my Blu-Ray player is an Xbox One (with HDMI ARC pass-thru); thus I get to daisy-chain (Cable Box > XBONE > Soundbar > ST60). So I'm holding out for the Vizio S5451w...but I may be sorry when I eventually want to add a PS4 which lacks HDMI ARC pass-thru..GUH!  HDMI has been out for 10 years now...how are AV connections still difficult in 2014!?

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post #1269 of 1314 Old 01-09-2014, 01:53 PM
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Even cheaper still is the Sharp HT-SB40 on sale at Best Buy & Amazon for $220. It has 2 HDMI in & an HDMI ARC out.

 

Adorama & Amazon have the Sony HT-CT550W for $250. It supports HDMI ARC out with 3 HDMI inputs.Tepid reviews based partially on its $400 MSRP but also its separate head unit for connections (meaning wires needing to go to the soundbar...umm...what?). Considering wireless connection is via attached dongles rather than built-in, this product honestly seems half-baked.

 

The step-up Sony soundbar from the 260 is the HT-CT660. It has 3 HDMI inputs + the all-important ARC out. It sells for $350. This seems like a good value, but be warned that wall-mounting is compromised by jacks on the surface of a hexagon-shaped bar. Seems to be intended for sitting on a TV stand.

 

Amazing that no one can get this right. In my mind the upcoming Vizio 5451 would be perfect IF it included 3 or 4 HDMI inputs rather than just 1. Or the SONOS Playbar IF included DTS processing and HDMI ins/out. Or the Sony 260 or 660 if they could mount flush to wall and had actual rear speakers.

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post #1270 of 1314 Old 01-10-2014, 02:34 PM
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I realize there are a ton of opinions already expressed here, but I thought I'd throw mine in as well: I would not recommend the Panasonic ST60 if you're planning to use it frequently as a computer display.

 

I stopped by Sears last night to hook up my MacBook Pro to a bunch of different TVs they had on display (big thank you to the nice Sears associates who let me mess with all the TVs I wanted!). Going in, my intent was to verify that the picture quality of the ST60 was as good as everyone raves about, and that the input lag would not be a big enough deal to deter my purchase. I tentatively planned to walk out with a new ST60. Instead, after a couple hours testing several different displays, I left without making a purchase at all. Here's why:

 

Yes, the picture quality of the ST60 was amazing, but not so much better than the comparably-priced LED displays that it was a no-brainer. I'm actually pretty impressed with the black levels of the LED TVs that have micro dimming, and the whites are much brighter than any plasma. Perhaps for most people's setups, whites on the ST60 will be great, but I realized that my living room is actually much brighter than I thought, and I think that will matter quite a bit (as many people have already pointed out). Since I'll be frequently using the TV as a computer monitor, the screen will be mostly white a lot of the time. These two factors combined (the brightness of the room and the fact that the screen will be white much of the time) made me decide against any plasma display in the end. (I also did notice the faint buzzing of the ST60 at times where the screen was mostly white, and those are also times when my environment will probably be very quiet, so it might drive me nuts.) One more thing I've noticed about plasma displays: if the screen has large white area visible and I look slightly away from the TV, I notice it flickering in my peripheral vision. I haven't heard many other people complain about this, and I don't understand it since I thought the high refresh rate would prevent noticeable flickering, but looking at the screen with a bright picture for too long really started to bother my eyes. I can't detect this at all on LED (LCD) displays with refresh rates higher than about 75Hz.

 

Finally, even if you don't have any of the problems I list above, the input lag is excruciatingly painful if you're using a mouse. You probably won't be using your mouse on this display every second you're using it, but every time you do, you'll notice the delay. (In fact, I even noticed it some on the Samsung F6400, which has half the lag of the ST60, but it was good enough that it didn't bother me all that much.) I didn't try any mouse-driven games (FPS with a mouse would be the best test), but I can't imagine that I'd be able to stand it. I even noticed the lag when I was typing. It's possible I'd get used to it, but it's also possible that it'd be one of those annoyances every time I used the TV that I'd want to punch myself for buying it when I knew about the problem beforehand.

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post #1271 of 1314 Old 01-13-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 5881 View Post

Doing little more research I saw a suggestion that applies to my Comcast RNG110 cable box. Going into the cable box's menu (box off, press menu with TV on) I changed to HDMI audio setting to L-PCM from Auto. Seems to have worked or at least close enough for me, I've tried cable and Netflix app so far. Not perfect perfect, but damn close. Now I have to see if it starts to get worse over time as many have reported. Not ready to celebrate quite yet.

Update: So far so good with this "fix". Is the sync issue perfect; no. But looking at my other setup with a Panny plasma and a Denon 5.1 receiver it looks about the same. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Love the picture though; it's so good it's distracting at times.
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post #1272 of 1314 Old 01-14-2014, 01:29 PM
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If I already have every picture option turned off, will leaving game mode on all the time effect picture quality?

thanks in advance

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post #1273 of 1314 Old 01-15-2014, 05:07 AM
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Still not happy with the lip sync issue. Looks like the Sony CT660 soundbar may be the one for my needs. Assuming the setup would be for me to plug my cable box and BluRay into the soundbar, and then go to the TV with the ARC HDMI so I can get NetFlix from the TV app with sound. And the chances of that eliminating my sync problems are? Love to start watching TV as opposed to watching lips! It's like watching a 60's Japanese Godzilla movie.
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post #1274 of 1314 Old 01-15-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jesse Coane View Post

If I already have every picture option turned off, will leaving game mode on all the time effect picture quality?

thanks in advance

Jesse

 

I'm using a tweaked version of Katzmaier's (CNET) settings so all the processing crap is off. I toggled Game Mode on & off...I don't see a difference in the picture (or sound). My super scientific test played sound from both the ST60's internal speakers & optical out from Xbox One to my Spherex 5.1 system. To get a clear view of lip sync, I watched the news via my FIOS DVR...

 

So [DVR > XbOne > ST60 (via HDMI)...plus Xbone to 5.1 via optical]

 

While there was a slight hall-like effect with TV & 5.1 speakers all going, the sound was in sync and didn't change perceptibly whether Game Mode was on or off. Then I turned on all the processing (CATS, NR, Motion Smoother, Vivid Color). Now there was an echo. Audio was lagging noticeably. And now when I turned on Game Mode, the picture changed (honestly for the better since the processing, especially CATS wreaked havoc with my lovely picture.)

 

In the name of science, I went back to original settings and played hours of Forza 5 with Game Mode Off (after having played untold hours with Game Mode ON). I didn't notice any difference or any input lag, even with the hyper responsive Lotus E21 Formula One. I'd love to hear from a Panasonic engineer or qualified calibrator, but it seems to me that Game Mode is essentially the same as turning all the processing off (and thus pointless if you already have CATS, NR, etc. turned off).

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post #1275 of 1314 Old 01-15-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5881 View Post


Just to make sure I have this right. I would have my Comcast box plugged into HDMI 1; my BluRay plugged into HDMI 3 and my Sony 260H plugged into HDMI 2(ARC)?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5881 View Post

Still not happy with the lip sync issue. Looks like the Sony CT660 soundbar may be the one for my needs. Assuming the setup would be for me to plug my cable box and BluRay into the soundbar, and then go to the TV with the ARC HDMI so I can get NetFlix from the TV app with sound. And the chances of that eliminating my sync problems are? Love to start watching TV as opposed to watching lips! It's like watching a 60's Japanese Godzilla movie.

You are no...match...for my...kung fu!

 

The Sony 660 gives you a generous 70 msec of a/v sync adjustment. Between that and the ST60's alleged auto sync via HDMI ARC, you should be able sync those lips!

 

5881, I told you earlier that I didn't think you could connect your Cable & Blu-Ray to Inputs 1 & 3, and use Input 2 ARC for a soundbar; but according to HD Guru http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p65st60-plasma-hdtv-review/ you can do just that. HD Guru probably has the most info to be found on ARC, so I expect he's correct.

 

That said, I'd still lean heavily toward the 660 because it's switching capability gives you options in the future, plus its specs are significantly better than the 260 (which in spite of many great reviews, merely sports full-range drivers).

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post #1276 of 1314 Old 01-15-2014, 04:34 PM
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Hi all! Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents as a new ST60 owner.

 

I've had the 50" ST60 in my living room for 3 weeks now (managed to snag one up from Sears's distribution center in Raleigh-Durham). It's an October build date.

 

I didn't mess with slides but I'm making sure I have full-screen content and no black bars. Let me take a moment & say I love this TV! Coming from a 2009 low-end LCD 32" LG that I used throughout college makes the ST60 seem like PQ heaven! Anyway, I watched the Panthers vs 49ers game last Sunday and didn't worry about IR, right after the game I put up a light-gray screen and saw some very faint IR from 2 feet away, but after a couple minutes it was gone, so no issue there.

 

I've been playing some CoD Black Ops 2 on it and haven't noticed any lag (game mode ON). I don't take my gaming too serious anymore since college but I still like to be competitive :-) So yea no gaming input lag problems on my end!! The only time I noticed lag on this TV was when I hooked up my macbook via HDMI with game mode OFF, but once I turned game mode ON I couldn't notice any lag.

 

Also, I have a Vizio soundbar (model S4251W-B4) with wireless subwoofer & rear speakers. I run HDMI to the TV then optical to the soundbar. I haven't noticed any lip sync problems or lag there either. All apps work as expected, too.

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post #1277 of 1314 Old 01-15-2014, 11:04 PM
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I don't notice any lag at all when playing any games on my 60" ST60 that I've had since April of 2013 and have played games extensively on. However, I do notice a slight lip sync issue when watching TV if I don't adjust things. Setting my receiver to a 50ms audio delay seems to fix it and sync it up perfectly. Setting it higher than that seems to desync it the other way.

This lines up with the findings in this article that I posted previously: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

They think that the Leo Bodnar test is inaccurate for Panasonic Plasma TVs and that the input lag number is closer to their camera tests (which they rated at 47+ms for the ST60). This would line up with my persona experiences with it and extensive use of the TV over the past year. I currently have 4935 hours on mine, for reference (I have a lot of free time due to various circumstances).

I do not think that my receiver adds any significant amount of input lag in the chain of things and if it doesn't then that matches up pretty well.
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post #1278 of 1314 Old 01-16-2014, 09:08 AM
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I've really looking to buy a st60 but a lot of the comments about the lag make me a bit nervous about spending the money. I am a gamer who plays the xbox 360, ps3 and xbox one, but I've seen enough posts from other gamers who say the lag really isn't an issue. My concern now are the posts about voice sync. I have a nice sony stdrn1040 receiver, and would worry about the audio. Is the voice sync really an issue? I can't stand when the audio is off when watching tv.

Thanks!
Jim
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post #1279 of 1314 Old 01-16-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbach13 View Post

I've really looking to buy a st60 but a lot of the comments about the lag make me a bit nervous about spending the money. I am a gamer who plays the xbox 360, ps3 and xbox one, but I've seen enough posts from other gamers who say the lag really isn't an issue. My concern now are the posts about voice sync. I have a nice sony stdrn1040 receiver, and would worry about the audio. Is the voice sync really an issue? I can't stand when the audio is off when watching tv.

Thanks!
Jim

Wow, I don't see you having anything at all to worry about. Your stdrn1040 has 10 HDMI 1.4a in & 2 out (1.4 spec supports ARC). Besides it adds a very generous 0-300msec of A/V sync.

 

If you can still find an ST60, by all means grab it! Connect your receiver to ST60 via a HDMI 1.4a cable & you'll be plenty synced and have no issues with downmixed audio signals.

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post #1280 of 1314 Old 01-16-2014, 10:58 AM
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I believe lip sync on this television is even less of a problem than input lag, and frankly, in real usage, the input lag is not a problem for typical console gamers.
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post #1281 of 1314 Old 01-16-2014, 01:52 PM
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First post here...

 

After much reading and researching on this forum I went ahead and picked up a 60" ST60 for a little Christmas gift for myself.  I'm not a gamer so input lag is not a problem for me in that regard but I most definitely experienced lip sync issues with this TV.  I think my experience is very similar to that of seanfoh's as I had to move my receiver to about 50 ms delay to compensate for delay in the picture.  The same adjustment works for both my blu-ray player and cable box.  My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V473 btw, and once synced up, it's really a non-issue.  Had I not been able to do this, however, I think it would've drove me crazy.  I have motion-smoother, CATS, and most other processing that should cause problems OFF, so I feel it is an issue to at least be aware of.

 

Zach

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post #1282 of 1314 Old 01-17-2014, 12:15 PM
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Yeah, I also keep all the processing stuff off. I leave Game Mode on always, since it doesn't hurt image quality.

My only real disappointment with the TV is that turning on 1080p Direct for the 4:4:4 Chroma stuff brings all of the extra processing input lag back. I wish they could fix that with a firmware update or something.
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post #1283 of 1314 Old 01-27-2014, 06:10 PM
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Games are unplayable on this TV. If you want to win, that is. Panasonic ruined an otherwise brilliant TV with slow, redundant, 'smart' rubbish.

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post #1284 of 1314 Old 01-27-2014, 09:06 PM
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Maybe for PC games (mouse lags?) but I've been enjoying the hell out of my Xbox One on 65ST60 every day since Christmas. Controller is perfectly responsive. Forza's hyper-fast Lotus E21 would be undriveable with significant input lag, but there's no such problem. Control is amazingly tight.

Not sure why a mouse amplifies the lag issue. Perhaps it's the extremely high dpi resolution of a PC mouse relative to a Xbox controller thumb stick? Regardless, I could not be happier gaming on my ST60.
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post #1285 of 1314 Old 01-27-2014, 09:57 PM
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It's a little on the high side for online FPS. Not unplayable, but noticeable if your coming from something more responsive.
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post #1286 of 1314 Old 02-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
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You are no...match...for my...kung fu!

The Sony 660 gives you a generous 70 msec of a/v sync adjustment. Between that and the ST60's alleged auto sync via HDMI ARC, you should be able sync those lips!

5881, I told you earlier that I didn't think you could connect your Cable & Blu-Ray to Inputs 1 & 3, and use Input 2 ARC for a soundbar; but according to HD Guru http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p65st60-plasma-hdtv-review/ you can do just that. HD Guru probably has the most info to be found on ARC, so I expect he's correct.

That said, I'd still lean heavily toward the 660 because it's switching capability gives you options in the future, plus its specs are significantly better than the 260 (which in spite of many great reviews, merely sports full-range drivers).
Ready to take the Sony 660 plunge. To those who own them; is the 70 msec a/v sync a user adjustable setting or "auto sync" with an on/off switch? I like my current sound bar just fine, and the only reason I'm going with the Sony is for that feature.
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post #1287 of 1314 Old 02-15-2014, 01:14 PM
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Hi. I purchased an 50" from Sears two weeks ago. I would like to share my lag experiences and see if some folks can chime in.

The audio is ahead of the video, so my unit seems to have video lag. There is a definite echo when running a sound bar and the TV speakers, proof that the delay is in the video?

Using the following components, putting the TV in hotel mode, and having tried the following:
Boston Acoustics TVee 30 sound bar (does not have HDMI inputs)
DirecTV HR44 sat receiver

1. Optical out from ST60 into sound bar
2. Optical out from sat receiver into sound bar
3. Different HDMI cables
4. Different HDMI inputs

The sync is still not right.

The built-in ST60 Netflix app is unwatchable. I did not have a sync issue with my previous LG LED TV and the sound bar.

Talking to Panasonic support was of no assistance.

Appreciate your advice. Thanks!
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post #1288 of 1314 Old 02-16-2014, 09:14 PM
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I've been trying to make sense of this thread but, with 43 pages it's a little hard to do. Bottom line, is there anyone who isn't able to solve lip synch issues by simply applying delay at the source?
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post #1289 of 1314 Old 02-16-2014, 10:02 PM
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I had problems getting mine to sync when using the optical out port on the ST60. The video would lag behind the audio and get worse as time went on. As soon as I changed to HDMI (source --> receiver --> st60) I was able to set a delay in the receiver and all was good.

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post #1290 of 1314 Old 02-23-2014, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

Samsung fixed the input lag on the F8500 AND F8000 with a firmware update in fact the F8000 has incredibly super low input lag now. Speaks volumes for them. Panasonic just left ST60 owners in the dark....

has anyone contacted Panasonic about a firmware update that would solve the input lag issue?
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