Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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If your PC can play games at 60 fps, then the panel feels relatively responsive. I played all the way through Darksiders 2 with mostly no issues although I have a hunch that at times it crept up here and there because there were a few WTF moments. The game isn't very strict on timing though. If you play FPS on PC with a mouse then it should feel ok, but mouse movement has a noticeable minor lag "feel" to it. Mouse movement is especially noticeable when working with clone CRT/ST60 display, but, if you are using just the panel by itself, then it isn't too noticeable.

Basically what it will boil down to for you is that a 60 fps shooter will feel closer to 30 fps on the panel, and if that's ok with you, then you should go for it. It will be an improvement over console 30 fps that will feel more like 15 fps.
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post #182 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:11 PM
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If you never set up the wifi or shut off the wifi, do you still get the lag? If there is nothing to connect to, are those smart tv options still running in the background?
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post #183 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

If you never set up the wifi or shut off the wifi, do you still get the lag? If there is nothing to connect to, are those smart tv options still running in the background?
Never thought about that.
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post #184 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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It doesn't make a difference, I've done the test with Wifi on and off and got the same variation in numbers.

You know, I don't think it matters how many processes you turn off even if you did a custom firmware. Chances are, the imagine is programmed to use x% of the processor and the rest goes to apps and such, so even if you removed all the apps, it would still be using x% of the processor. A custom firmware would not only have to remove the apps, or at least stop them from being loaded, but you'd have to program a higher affinity to the picture.

Or, it could possibly not even matter and the panel is how the panel is.

Panny had this to say when I told them I'm probably going to end up returning the set:
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We have been provided with some new information.

There is a GAME mode in the ADVANCED PICTURE SETTINGS of the TV.

1. Ensure the TV is powered on.
2. Ensure the TV is set to an HDMI input.
3. Press [MENU].
4. With PICTURE highlighted, press [OK] on the TV remote control.
5. Scroll up to ADVANCED PICTURE and press [OK].
6. The very first setting should be GAME MODE. Set this to ON.

Please let us know if you notice any improvement in the picture response time.

We hope you find this information to be beneficial.

Thank you for choosing Panasonic.
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post #185 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

It doesn't make a difference, I've done the test with Wifi on and off and got the same variation in numbers.

You know, I don't think it matters how many processes you turn off even if you did a custom firmware. Chances are, the imagine is programmed to use x% of the processor and the rest goes to apps and such, so even if you removed all the apps, it would still be using x% of the processor. A custom firmware would not only have to remove the apps, or at least stop them from being loaded, but you'd have to program a higher affinity to the picture.

Or, it could possibly not even matter and the panel is how the panel is.

Panny had this to say when I told them I'm probably going to end up returning the set:

Its really too bad they cant do a firmware to disable the smart options. At least we know shutting off wifi wont fix the issue. Seems kind of silly they wont fix this
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post #186 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Panny had this to say when I told them I'm probably going to end up returning the set:
Didn't you explicitly state in your emails to them that you tried not only game mode, but disabling all other image parameters as well? These canned responses are getting ridiculous.
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post #187 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I did actually, and spent quite a long time detailing for them what the problem was. Also, they ignored the 3D overscan problem as well.

- well on a second look, apparently I didn't mention game mode was already on. So, I updated them that it wasn't any help.
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post #188 of 1317 Old 04-16-2013, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so I knew I saw somewhere in the menu licensing info for the software. It turns out, the software Panny uses is based on BSD, which is an open source Unix alternative. Plus, you can email Panny (cdrequest at unipf dot jp) to get the source code on a disc, with the only cost being the shipment of the disc, OR you can get the source code from http://www.unipf.jp/dl/DTV13U/ though I can't seem to get that site to load anything...

Maybe it's a start. However, compiling and stuff is beyond my current knowledge. Maybe if some fine programmer peruses the board and would like to lend a helping hand smile.gif


I've emailed the address and asked what the charge is for the disc and why I can't access the website. Lets see what happens.


LOL, it gets better. I got a Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender notice after trying that email. Man, it's like every avenue we try, we get completely shut down. This is really disappointing, I'm feeling big time buyer's remorse lol.
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post #189 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Never thought about that.

I've brought up this point multiple times....rolleyes.gif
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post #190 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Ok, so I knew I saw somewhere in the menu licensing info for the software. It turns out, the software Panny uses is based on BSD, which is an open source Unix alternative. Plus, you can email Panny (cdrequest at unipf dot jp) to get the source code on a disc, with the only cost being the shipment of the disc, OR you can get the source code from http://www.unipf.jp/dl/DTV13U/ though I can't seem to get that site to load anything...

Maybe it's a start. However, compiling and stuff is beyond my current knowledge. Maybe if some fine programmer peruses the board and would like to lend a helping hand smile.gif


I've emailed the address and asked what the charge is for the disc and why I can't access the website. Lets see what happens.


LOL, it gets better. I got a Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender notice after trying that email. Man, it's like every avenue we try, we get completely shut down. This is really disappointing, I'm feeling big time buyer's remorse lol.

Well that's bitter sweet news to say the least. Maybe someone can get through to them in the future....at this point in time all we can do is wait for the next firmware (hoping it includes cleaner code/bug fixes) and see displaylag's results. Sucks this issue is a deal breaker for you. I noticed one user stating that he saw interpolation even with motion smoother off? Is this something you've possible noticed?
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post #191 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 06:57 AM
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I believe the insider at the other forum said he doesn't expect a firmware update for the lag. That does suck for people, but I think Panasonic wanted to avoid making the ST60 too good in every area ( same with 3D) as to help incentivize people to go to the VT60. On the other hand, it seems like they gave standard 2D calibration ability and performance more of an edge this year with grayscale, color, and improved blacks.

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post #192 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 07:46 AM
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I believe the insider at the other forum said he doesn't expect a firmware update for the lag. That does suck for people, but I think Panasonic wanted to avoid making the ST60 too good in every area ( same with 3D) as to help incentivize people to go to the VT60. On the other hand, it seems like they gave standard 2D calibration ability and performance more of an edge this year with grayscale, color, and improved blacks.

Found the statement. It was essentially 'I have no idea'. I asked him something earlier regarding firmware and his response was to the tune of "I avoid the firmware department".
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post #193 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

I've brought up this point multiple times....rolleyes.gif
Keeping up with too many threads. I guess I'm forgetting some things. eek.gif

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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Found the statement. It was essentially 'I have no idea'. I asked him something earlier regarding firmware and his response was to the tune of "I avoid the firmware department".
Of course companies' internal departments would avoid each other. Otherwise, they'd be too productive. rolleyes.gif
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post #194 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 08:33 AM
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Keeping up with too many threads. I guess I'm forgetting some things. eek.gif
Of course companies' internal departments would avoid each other. Otherwise, they'd be too productive. rolleyes.gif

Haha, good point. I know, at least where I work, certain departments have their own goals and don't enjoy the input/suggestions from others cool.gif.
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post #195 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Well that's bitter sweet news to say the least. Maybe someone can get through to them in the future....at this point in time all we can do is wait for the next firmware (hoping it includes cleaner code/bug fixes) and see displaylag's results. Sucks this issue is a deal breaker for you. I noticed one user stating that he saw interpolation even with motion smoother off? Is this something you've possible noticed?

Waiting isn't something I can do. I have less than 2 weeks now left for my exchange period, so I have a decision to make here.

For interpolation, haven't noticed it. Off and Weak seem to have a very mild difference, but Off definitely is giving me the 24 fps treatment on video.
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I've brought up this point multiple times....rolleyes.gif

And I've tested this point... multiple times. It does not make a difference. I've concluded that they've most likely set a certain percentage of processor for picture and the rest goes to background apps and such, so even if you were to remove them it won't do anything or even turning off a bunch of stuff doesn't seem to make that much a difference. However, the only way I could for sure say whether this is true or not is if I had a LB device to get absolute readings with settings on and off, which I would be interested in doing, but not my wallet.
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post #196 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 09:51 AM
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watch these videos back to back...

ST60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

S60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

make you think twice?

Wow, the ST60 is definitely out of the question. If anyone can answer the following questions:

When it comes to picture quality, are the ST60 and S60 identical besides the ST60 having the reflection filter?

As far as picture quality is concerned, is the S60 better than last year's ST50?

Also, how would the ST50 and S60 compare when it comes to input lag?

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post #197 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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The ST60 will look a lot better. Some people say they don't like the AR filter but it makes a big difference, the panel still looks good in a bright room. The S60 isn't going to be able to do that. I haven't seen any decrease in sharpness with the filter, in fact I can see pixel edges just fine. The AR filter makes a difference in vertical viewing angle though, so if you were to mount the TV high on a wall, it's going to have that "LCD" effect of changing viewing angle. As long as you're looking straight on the TV looks great, and you have a wide viewing angle horizontally, but say you were to stand up, you'd see the filter in effect.

Picture quality, well the ST60 has higher gradation and the infinite black pro, so yes there will be a difference. The S60 is about on par with the UT50 as far as gradients are concerned, and I've noticed an enormous difference between the ST60 and the UT50 as far as how smooth shades of color blend into each other. The blacks are also really nice on the ST60, but they also looked good on the UT50, too, at least when it was darker out.

The S60 and ST50 are most likely going to be similar as far as input lag is concerned, maybe the S60 will even be faster. It's looking good so far in that respect.
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post #198 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:08 AM
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Moonchilde, Info appreciated. Thank you.
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post #199 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

The ST60 will look a lot better. Some people say they don't like the AR filter but it makes a big difference, the panel still looks good in a bright room. The S60 isn't going to be able to do that. I haven't seen any decrease in sharpness with the filter, in fact I can see pixel edges just fine. The AR filter makes a difference in vertical viewing angle though, so if you were to mount the TV high on a wall, it's going to have that "LCD" effect of changing viewing angle. As long as you're looking straight on the TV looks great, and you have a wide viewing angle horizontally, but say you were to stand up, you'd see the filter in effect.

Picture quality, well the ST60 has higher gradation and the infinite black pro, so yes there will be a difference. The S60 is about on par with the UT50 as far as gradients are concerned, and I've noticed an enormous difference between the ST60 and the UT50 as far as how smooth shades of color blend into each other. The blacks are also really nice on the ST60, but they also looked good on the UT50, too, at least when it was darker out.

The S60 and ST50 are most likely going to be similar as far as input lag is concerned, maybe the S60 will even be faster. It's looking good so far in that respect.

As far as picture quality is concerned, how do you think the S60 and ST50 compare? I'm a gamer and the possibility of the S60 having better input response than the ST50 is also concerning since I bought the ST50 last month for about the same price that a S60 goes for. However, the ST50 having the AR filter over the S60 is a bonus but I wonder about the picture quality of the two. Are they about even?

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post #200 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RomanBlade86 View Post

Wow, the ST60 is definitely out of the question. If anyone can answer the following questions:

When it comes to picture quality, are the ST60 and S60 identical besides the ST60 having the reflection filter?

As far as picture quality is concerned, is the S60 better than last year's ST50?

Also, how would the ST50 and S60 compare when it comes to input lag?

This will anger some people, but I'll say it again...there's something wrong with those videos. A delay of that magnitude can not be in the 10's of milliseconds. So assuming the reported 80ms time for ST60 is accurate (which it most likely is), the S60 would magically have to be negative 20ms or greater. Also neither display has game mode enabled, so the whole point of the test is questionable.
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post #201 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Waiting isn't something I can do. I have less than 2 weeks now left for my exchange period, so I have a decision to make here.

For interpolation, haven't noticed it. Off and Weak seem to have a very mild difference, but Off definitely is giving me the 24 fps treatment on video.
And I've tested this point... multiple times. It does not make a difference. I've concluded that they've most likely set a certain percentage of processor for picture and the rest goes to background apps and such, so even if you were to remove them it won't do anything or even turning off a bunch of stuff doesn't seem to make that much a difference. However, the only way I could for sure say whether this is true or not is if I had a LB device to get absolute readings with settings on and off, which I would be interested in doing, but not my wallet.

I know you've tested it, just pointing out that it wasn't a new thought. When running your tests, did you mess around with the overscan settings? I recall one user saying he was able to log a difference.
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post #202 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:37 AM
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This will anger some people, but I'll say it again...there's something wrong with those videos. A delay of that magnitude can not be in the 10's of milliseconds. So assuming the reported 80ms time for ST60 is accurate (which it most likely is), the S60 would magically have to be negative 20ms or greater. Also neither display has game mode enabled, so the whole point of the test is questionable.

Either way it's certain that the ST60 has worse input lag than the previous year's models and even the S60. It may not be as bad as the video suggests but it's still worse than the other models.

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post #203 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RomanBlade86 View Post

Either way it's certain that the ST60 has worse input lag than the previous year's models and even the S60. It may not be as bad as the video suggests but it's still worse than the other models.

Still, until you try it in game mode, you're only jumping to conclusions on an issue you need physical experience with. You're comparing numbers, representing spans of time, that almost all fall under the category "instantaneous". For many, yes, it will be a deal breaker. Others however are too busy enjoying themselves to give an opinion. According to LCDTVBuyingGuide, "Game mode showed a real improvement in input lag without too much judder. This mode made the input lag a non-issue". The main voices here disagree, but others have reported much better experiences.
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post #204 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

This will anger some people, but I'll say it again...there's something wrong with those videos. A delay of that magnitude can not be in the 10's of milliseconds. So assuming the reported 80ms time for ST60 is accurate (which it most likely is), the S60 would magically have to be negative 20ms or greater. Also neither display has game mode enabled, so the whole point of the test is questionable.
I agree there, in both videos 1080p direct was enabled. The S60 does not have a game mode, but I am pretty positive midkay told me the ST60 was in game mode during the test. The delay is coming from 1080p direct (as tests have already shown). The problem is, OCMike has posted some screens that show how much shadow detail is gained with 1080p direct, so it's completely possible that the S60 with 1080p direct looks near-as-good as the ST60 in game mode with 1080p direct turned off, all the while the S60 being more responsive.
Pick your poison. cool.gif

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Either way it's certain that the ST60 has worse input lag than the previous year's models and even the S60. It may not be as bad as the video suggests but it's still worse than the other models.
Yep, it does, that much is certain, at least.

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Still, until you try it in game mode, you're only jumping to conclusions on an issue you need physical experience with. You're comparing numbers, representing spans of time, that almost all fall under the category "instantaneous". For many, yes, it will be a deal breaker. Others however are too busy enjoying themselves to give an opinion. According to LCDTVBuyingGuide, "Game mode showed a real improvement in input lag without too much judder. This mode made the input lag a non-issue". The main voices here disagree, but others have reported much better experiences.
I don't put too much stock into LCDTVBuyingGuide's reviews, they seem more like advertisements than televisioninfo's reviews do... :-/
Of course, Stump, so many things can be subjective, as you and I both know.

I think the best bet for people is to at least try the ST60 if gaming isn't their only concern. For those that absolutely need good response times (but don't want to play on a tiny monitor), they may want to look elsewhere ala S60 or previous-gen.
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post #205 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 12:24 PM
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I'm glad that display lag is gonna test the ST60. The first step here is to really nail down what exactly the ST60's lag time in game mode really is.

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post #206 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 12:29 PM
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I'm glad that display lag is gonna test the ST60. The first step here is to really nail down what exactly the ST60's lag time in game mode really is.

Agreed, I'm looking forward to the result. My only hope/request, is that they list the enabled and disabled options. It won't do me much good if they choose to leave DNR or Pixel Direct on...I'm sure they're better than that however.
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post #207 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 12:36 PM
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I agree there, in both videos 1080p direct was enabled. The S60 does not have a game mode, but I am pretty positive midkay told me the ST60 was in game mode during the test. The delay is coming from 1080p direct (as tests have already shown). The problem is, OCMike has posted some screens that show how much shadow detail is gained with 1080p direct, so it's completely possible that the S60 with 1080p direct looks near-as-good as the ST60 in game mode with 1080p direct turned off, all the while the S60 being more responsive.
Pick your poison. cool.gif
Yep, it does, that much is certain, at least.
I don't put too much stock into LCDTVBuyingGuide's reviews, they seem more like advertisements than televisioninfo's reviews do... :-/
Of course, Stump, so many things can be subjective, as you and I both know.

I think the best bet for people is to at least try the ST60 if gaming isn't their only concern. For those that absolutely need good response times (but don't want to play on a tiny monitor), they may want to look elsewhere ala S60 or previous-gen.

1. Do you have the link for OCmike's images? I've heard nothing positive about the feature. Apparently it creates terrible haloing?

2. Your description of the all setting possibilities is my exact problem with the test. Too many absent details.

3.I agree they don't seem too professional, but if it were an ad, wouldn't they avoid saying positive things about the "loser"? They even admitted 3D gaming on the Panny was better than their 1st place Samsung.
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post #208 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

1. Do you have the link for OCmike's images? I've heard nothing positive about the feature. Apparently it creates terrible haloing?

If you enable Photo content under HDMI Content with 1080p Pixel Direct on, it will eliminate the halos. Photo Content option may also change the gamma, as it seemed to do to some degree and slightly alter the color on the 2012 plasmas. It doesn't really seem to do much on the 2013 ones other than defeat edge halos on 1080p direct.

In fact, I had a hunch that 1080p direct probably doesn't do very much other than disable some type of other option in the menu and lo and behold, under Pro settings Color Gamut is now grayed out, so it seems it forces the TV into Native mode. For the record, Normal alters the color to be more accurate, Native just displays what is fed to it.
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

I agree there, in both videos 1080p direct was enabled. The S60 does not have a game mode, but I am pretty positive midkay told me the ST60 was in game mode during the test. The delay is coming from 1080p direct (as tests have already shown). The problem is, OCMike has posted some screens that show how much shadow detail is gained with 1080p direct, so it's completely possible that the S60 with 1080p direct looks near-as-good as the ST60 in game mode with 1080p direct turned off, all the while the S60 being more responsive.

If 1080p actually adds any input delay then it was being added to both sets, so the testing conditions were still very fair. Well, actually, even worse for the ST60 because even with Game mode on it was still getting its ass beat by the S60 which has no Game mode, which I find very odd...
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Still, until you try it in game mode, you're only jumping to conclusions on an issue you need physical experience with. You're comparing numbers, representing spans of time, that almost all fall under the category "instantaneous". For many, yes, it will be a deal breaker. Others however are too busy enjoying themselves to give an opinion. According to LCDTVBuyingGuide, "Game mode showed a real improvement in input lag without too much judder. This mode made the input lag a non-issue". The main voices here disagree, but others have reported much better experiences.

You're kinda getting back to the subjective talk. Please try to not do that ok? I'm also fairly certain at this point that Game mode does nothing other than turn off Motion smoother and disables anything that could mess with the Hz, meaning 3D playback and 24p mode. Basically, it fixes the TV to 60 Hz and turns off interpolation.

You also keep ignoring the fact that midkay had both sets configured exactly the same, and the S60 still had lower input lag. If his LCD monitor is laggy then we can hypothesize that the S60 is down in the 1 to 2 frames of lag since even with 1080p direct on it was matching the display lag of his LCD, which was much faster than the ST60. You can't ignore those facts and keep trying to discredit those videos just because you don't want to believe. I don't want to believe it either but the video footage, the lag testing devices, and the cameras are all showing high input lag for the set. The evidence is far against you.
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

I know you've tested it, just pointing out that it wasn't a new thought. When running your tests, did you mess around with the overscan settings? I recall one user saying he was able to log a difference.

No overscan settings. Everything was turned off besides Game mode. It still had a variable outcome of 80 to 100.
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post #209 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

1. Do you have the link for OCmike's images? I've heard nothing positive about the feature. Apparently it creates terrible haloing?

2. Your description of the all setting possibilities is my exact problem with the test. Too many absent details.

3.I agree they don't seem too professional, but if it were an ad, wouldn't they avoid saying positive things about the "loser"? They even admitted 3D gaming on the Panny was better than their 1st place Samsung.
1. http://www.avsforum.com/g/i/192261/a/2212241/screen-shots/sort/display_order/

2. Yep. Now we wait for DL.

3. I don't know exactly what they had in mind when writing the "review". smile.gif Taking all reviews individually with a grain of salt is a good idea---once multiple reviews start coming in, then more informed inferences can be made. A shame CNET didn't mention anything about the lag. frown.gif
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post #210 of 1317 Old 04-17-2013, 04:58 PM
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One thing I noticed on my ST60 is that even with 'Motion Smoothing' set to off (or Game Mode on which grays out motion smoothing), it still looks like there is frame interpolation being added. This is not the case with my ST30, which has zero input lag. Can anyone with a S60 comment on whether they noticed the same thing? If not, this would most likely be the cause of the input lag, as frame interpolation creates input lag (as does any type of post-processing effect). Even if it is though, Panasonic would probably not do anything about it (might be a 'feature' to them and not a bug).
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