Ok, to make some people happy, lets consolidate the input lag discussion to this thread for the ST60. For some reason, the input lag on the ST60 is testing absurdly high. So lets discuss that a bit here. Going to be quoting some stuff in no particular order.
Originally Posted by Phatal One
I don't think it is anywhere near a "rising blacks" level of seriousness. One night of tinkering has shown me that there are a number of settings to help reduce the issue. Hopefully there are ways to further improve performance for those who care, as the ST60 is pretty strong in other areas. Eventually I will get around to testing 3D and some other things but input lag was a bit easier to design a decent and quick test for after a long day at work than to calibrate various picture modes. Plus, until my ZT60 gets here I will not have another 3D capable display to compare it to.
Actually, I do consider this quite serious. Why is it that the TV has double the amount of input lag as last year's model the ST50, which had about 8 ms of input lag over the previous ST30? Everything else is pretty nice, the image quality is fantastic and has many improvements over the 2012 models, such as better screen uniformity and a much less aggressive ABL. Horizontal color bleed is also much improved, and the gradients are far, far nicer than the UT50 I tried out for a couple of weeks. Everything is a huge improvement, except the lag. I don't feel like these improvements are because of image processing, I think they're simply making a much nicer panel than the previous years.
As far as the input lag, on 3D games, I'm not noticing it so much. 3D games tend to have a lot of start up frames and unlimited frames of animation, making it harder to tell. It didn't feel all that much different from the UT50. But, when it came to retro 2D stuff, that's when I took notice, and the ST60 definitely has a relatively high amount of input lag vs old school gaming on a CRT monitor.
Originally Posted by Phatal One
Well here are my preliminary results from my lag time tests:
I ran 50 iterations of the Human Benchmark Reaction Time Test
. Unless noted otherwise, all tests on the ST60 were run with MPEG NR - OFF, Motion Smoother - OFF, and Video NR - LOW.
Dell U3011 - Avg 275ms
Known Input lag - 24ms
My Estimated lag - 251ms
Test 1: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct On - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 347.0ms - Est. Display Lag 96.0ms
Test 2: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 322.5ms - Est. Display Lag 71.5ms
Test 3: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 320.0ms - Est. Display Lag 69.0ms
Test 4: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 315.0ms - Est. Display Lag 64.0ms
Test 5: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter Auto - Overscan Off - Avg 305.2ms - Est. Display Lag 54.2ms
Test 6: ST60 w/ Test 5 Settings - Video NR Off - Avg 300.8ms - Est. Display Lag 49.8ms
Repeat Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 279.9ms
I ran the 3rd test a second time because my animals decided to provide an unneeded distraction towards the end. Since there is a human and environmental element here I would say the range on these results is at least +/- 5ms and possibly add another +/-5ms b/c of the wireless mouse on my HTPC. I will retest with a wired mouse later but surprisingly paying attention long enough to click 250 times is somewhat fatiguing at the end of the work day!
Overall, I can say I was never able to match my times on the Dell U3011. I achieved my best times with game mode on and my own individual variability may be skewing the results of game mode a bit. At this point, I can say pixel direct appears to be quite intensive in processing requirements. It basically adds the entire input lag of the U3011 to the existing base panel lag. Game mode seems to be hit or miss in my results but I believe it is worth at least 10ms of processing improvement. I still have to finish the Guitar Hero calibration and would like to see if I can eliminate some of my own variability from the results above. The only thing I can definitively conclude from this limited data set is that the display and firmware in its current state has more than 2x the lag of the U3011 (which is not exactly a gaming monitor).
I'm willing to rerun some of these test in case I have some settings wrong or if there are other combos that may yield better results.
Added Test #5 to account for pixel orbiter setting and updated Test 1-4 descriptions accordingly.
Reran the control test at the end of the night just to make sure Test #5 results weren't due to better response time on my part.
Added Video NR settings as suggested by Supermandlb
Added Test #6 to test the Video NR setting.
I saw this, and tried it out myself. Unfortunately, I think this has too much human error, for one, the first test you run you're still fresh from "playing" this game. I noticed that as you "played" more, you got better at it. I don't know if that actually correlates to the test results
Secondly, if you aren't 100% focused, then the results will vary too much as you get bored of looking for green. I personally couldn't get a compressed average window because I got bored after looking for green for a 10th time.
Originally Posted by supermandlb
Maybe I missed it, but have you tested the ST60's input lag?? I believe El Matadurr was referring to you testing the ST60 model
Yes, I did the camera and CRT method. It's not exactly scientific but it did give me a pretty good idea of the display's input lag over the CRT I tested on.
My settings were as such: Picture mode Custom; Color temp Normal; Vivid color off; CATS off; Video NR off; MPEG NR off; Game mode on; 1080p pixel direct off; HDMI content type off; HDMI/DVI RGB range non-standard; Black level light; Screen format full; Overscan off; H size Size 1 a.k.a. 100%; Pixel orbiter auto a.k.a. off. My tests yielded multiple 78 ms and even as high as 107 ms as the worst case that I had. Important to note was that there was no scaling by the display being done at the time of the tests, everything was a pixel 1:1 ratio.
I also tested the same settings above, Custom, with Game mode off. No difference, it would bounce around between the same 80 to 100 ms range as Game mode being on. Which really makes me wonder, why the hell is it bouncing from 80 to 100 with the same settings?
I ran another test with 1080p pixel direct on, and it hovered in the same amount of ms. I only tested this because there was one photo of a CRT vs ST60 floating around that claimed it was higher, but my same tests with it off would fluctuate by about 20 ms so I have to say that this mode probably doesn't really add that much to it.
I tested Vivid mode which disables the Pro Settings mode that Custom and Cinema has, and no difference.
I did not test Motion smoother, as that seemed a waste of time to me.
Hope that helps answer some of your questions.
Originally Posted by gbmannc
That is a head scratcher isn't it. Could the improved sharpness people have been reporting be the cause due to increased image processing?
I honestly don't see a difference between the "sharpness" of the image vs the UT50 with the sharpness turned off. Everything looked pixel clear on both sets, the only difference I notice is how reflective the screens were.
Originally Posted by El Matadurr
...that's easily double the lag as the ST30. Those sensitive to lag would surely notice that.
This does beg the question though--one that would be great for Panasonic to answer--with everything turned off and game mode activated, why is this year's model slower
than previous years' models? Does Murphy's law have a backtracking algorithm?...
The ST30 was 32 ms of lag. Pretty good, I was hoping the ST60 was going to go back to those measurements, but alas... Anyway, having played some modern games on a UT50 and then played on a ST60, there isn't too much of a difference, at least not noticeable right away. Unfortunately, I did not get to do my retro game test on the UT50. Now I wish I did.
Originally Posted by El Matadurr
What??? You can't disable the pixel orbiter on this year's model? Now that's just crazy. I wonder how many other settings have ON or AUTO (a.k.a. still on).
The Auto setting is equivalent to off. I don't know why they renamed it, maybe to cut back the paranoia of burn in?
Originally Posted by fahrenheit
Well if we don't know what is responsible for the lag, then we don't know what will fix it.
Keep in mind that I've got nothing to base the following on and don't know whether this is occuring with the 2013 models. Owners will be able to correct me if this is off-base....
I'd speculate that it may be because of how My Smart Home is implemented.
On my GT50, the internet-based functions are not a service that is running in the background, it has to load when it is called. I also notice on my friends ST50 that this process is even slower (slower SoC). If on the 2013 models this process is always on (running in the background), then that would require additional processing power and/or buffering that could be responsible for the lag. The upper models (GT60 and beyond) have a more powerful SoC and its likely that they can handle this processing without having any net-affect on input lag.
If this were the reason for the lag, then Panasonic would need to (in firmware) disable the My Smart Home functionality when Game mode is chosen.
Just out of interest, it would be good if an owner could report what happens with game mode enabled and they call up My Smart Home. Does game mode stay enabled or not?
Could you describe My Smart Home? I would like to see what you're talking about. For what it's worth, if I hit the Home button, the set zooms the picture out and shows me a menu around the image. This is always a running process and has no loading time at all, I can switch to Full Screen TV, Lifestyle Screen, or Info Screen all on the fly. There is no longer a Viera Tools, instead those are on the Apps menu, which loads up a ton of stuff instantly. There is a paint program that will load instantly, other programs must be added to a Home screen to be launched from, and then there are internet programs which require connecting to, probably like a cloud app. The whole OS runs on top of the image, I can access Home at any point and it will be like pressing the Home button on a PS3 mid game to bring up the XMB, so I know it's always running.
I hate Smart TV features. Why can I just get a nice image with pro menu controls? I don't want all this other garbage running. Seriously, I would love a custom firmware that hacked all that crap out and left me with just the menu.