Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 292 - AVS Forum
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post #8731 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jarsofwei View Post

yeah, okay so I'm not one to use slides to check for IR.. that's just asking for trouble.. that said, I definitely have noticed IR on my V10.. most common case is watching a 2.35:1 movie and seeing bars for a few minutes.. or seeing a dvd/bluray menu after leaving it on too long.. but nothing much more extreme than that.. my sense is that if IR is only noticeable on slides, then it doesn't really count.. especially if it will go away after some time.. thanks for the insight here.
this is what i plan to (and hope i actually) do when I get mine on Saturday. I do feel like the reports of IR on threads like this are overblown. And even the necessity to "break-in" a panel has been misconstrued.. Seems more to do with aging the panel to calibrate color than to wait for the phosphors to "mature"... as people have had as much IR after 1000 hours as they did out of the box. Glad to hear you've had a great experience. I plan to plunk in some settings that look good to me and just enjoy the TV. And that means sports, gaming, 2.35:1 movies and the lot! Will let you guys know how it goes this weekend.

edit: so whipit - are you saying that you didn't do any break-in or anything before watching football or watching widescreen movies? smile.gif

No slides or break-in on any of my tv's. Got it on friday and watched college ball and NFL then a few days later watched a movie with bars. My confidence comes with main tv habits, lots of normal programing so static stuff will be a low percentage of the panels use. YMMV
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post #8732 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:05 PM
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All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST. Doesn't seem to be as many people with pretty big issues over in that thread. Unless I just read over it. Not being able to watch a football game without something retaining seems pretty bad considering how on replays and commercials it's not showing up and should be wiped out.
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post #8733 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST
Dont do it.

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post #8734 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:14 PM
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VT60 and 1080p Pure Direct Mode:


So I was doing some research on this setting and whether to leave it turned on or turned off when I came upon this review explaining the pros and cons of this feature.

Quote:

''Therefore, we can conclude this extreme pixel peeping by saying that arguably the best way to watch Blu-rays on the TX-P65VT65B is with a Panasonic Blu-ray player (or similar), outputting 4:4:4, with the [1080p Pure Direct] mode enabled, and the player’s advanced chroma processing feature turned on. Even the cheapest current Panasonic BD players have this feature, and will outperform more expensive “boutique” players in this minor regard. If you don’t have a player which smooths the chroma channels in this way, then you might find that you prefer to feed the Panasonic VT65 with 4:4:4 video but to leave the [1080p Pure Direct] mode off, which will effectively act as in-TV smoothing of small jagged colour details.''



I always thought David Mackenzie was a very underrated pro calibrator and i've always found his reviews to be thorough and educational at the same time.

I find that the VT60 has so many hidden features mostly because of the clumsy layout of the settings and I think more owners here should take it as a challenge to learn and utilize them properly instead of the unwanted direction things have been going lately.

Next for me is figuring out deep color settings. My Oppo 103D has them all the way up to 36 bits and if the VT60 can utilize them in any way smile.gif
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post #8735 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Sadly, this place has gone down hill and it is no longer enjoyable to participate. Because of that, i have decided to no longer participate in this, or any other AVS forum. I consider myself as being helpful, and i know members have been thankful based on PMs and replies, I do hope new members do continue to get accurate help, unfortunately those that are willing are dropping like flies.

I hope things change here and the moderators wake up before its too late, but history shows it won't happen.

Happy holidays to everyone, i hope you all have a wonderful time with family and friends.

Ill leave you with this....just remember, its only a TV people!

Oh brother...

Is there any reason to be this melodramatic? Seriously, this is an internet forum: toughen up buttercup. If you're tired of hearing the same people complain then use the ignore/mute function and, presto, no more bitching. Besides, this is an internet forum-- what did you expect everyone to join hands in a circle around our plasmas and sing kumbaya?

I suggest you take your own advice and don't take things so seriously: it's only a forum...
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post #8736 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jarsofwei View Post

I do feel like the reports of IR on threads like this are overblown.

I wish you could come tell that to my TV lol. Two weeks, ~24 hours of pixel shifter (half of that on vivid) and the darn thing is still there. Really getting tempted to call up amazon, but even if they do a replacement, it'll end up happening again because I play too many video games.

I'm completely fine with normal IR. I understand it, why it happens, and how I cause it. It's a trade off I'm willing to make in order to have a plasma. What I'm not ok with my specific set is how long it has persisted. It hasn't even picked anything else up since then. There was just something about that one specific HUD element that really pissed the TV off.
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post #8737 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by forensick View Post

I wish you could come tell that to my TV lol. Two weeks, ~24 hours of pixel shifter (half of that on vivid) and the darn thing is still there. Really getting tempted to call up amazon, but even if they do a replacement, it'll end up happening again because I play too many video games.

I'm completely fine with normal IR. I understand it, why it happens, and how I cause it. It's a trade off I'm willing to make in order to have a plasma. What I'm not ok with my specific set is how long it has persisted. It hasn't even picked anything else up since then. There was just something about that one specific HUD element that really pissed the TV off.

Yikes, is that still the one u-play logo from AC4 that's stuck? or are there other hud elements stuck too?

edit: how long of a stretch do you typically play games for? i only do 1-2 hours max at a time..
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post #8738 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Pro:
Everything...this TV is frigging incredible.

Cons:
Very minor line bleed
Minor DSE (only noticeable during certain pans with a light background).
Slight IR but I'm still in early stages (under 75hours still). And even for early stage it seems pretty IR resistant as time goes on. If it's there I can't see it so I'm not worrying about it.

I put up a few color slides and the uniformity was better than expected, and IR was not present. But I don't watch color slides all day so no issues.

Have a lot of finals this week for school and trying to play as much as I can with it so I an start enjoying some true aspect ratio blu rays like some 2:40 or 2:35

I have finally learned to deal with a few things because the few things that are my wry minor cons are actually normal so technically my cons should be zero. I am 100% enjoying this TV....finally

When I first got the tv I spent like five minutes sifting through the menus abd when I put slides on I noticed slight ir of the text, I said that's ir huh, and moved on. I Am concerned about if being that I'm a gamer, but we will cross that bridge when we get there. I am a little bothered by line bleed though. It doesn't happen too often in normal content, but I've noticed it every time I've watched my tv in some capacity and it is distracting. Pop up the menu with a light background get some line bleed...I don't like it, but it could be worse, it could be flashlighting or halo ing or ask together poor backlight issues or muddy shadows etc. Plasma may not be absolutely perfect in picture quality in every way, but it's better than anything else (except maybe oled or a projector). Hell, it I see a dark object puss by a very bright background in real life my eyes will see a trail or shadow, and I have to wear glasses to read small text...im nit going to replace my eyes for being imperfect (nit until cybernetic enhancements are at a reasonable price anyways) and my tv certainly works better than my eyes.
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post #8739 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:47 PM
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Ok. Here's where I out myself. The fundamental problem here is my 1990s era "AV" receiver. It's strictly 2.0. So in order to just add a sub, I'd have to replace the receiver. Spending the coin on a new receiver just to add a sub seems wasteful. I will never be able to add a 5.1 speaker system. It just won't work with the weird geometry of my room setup. So the question is whether it is worth it to get a new receiver just to add a sub, or will a soundbar with sub be sufficent for me after all, I'm not going for a home theater here. I'm just trying to help out the tv, since it is an incredible display device, but the speakers are ridiculous. I think a decent soundbar will do the trick.

Anyway, on to more important issues: the sticker with the serial,number on the back of my VT60 is a little crooked. I checked it witha level and a plumb line and I am pretty sure it's off a little bit. Should I send it back?

Most subs have high level inputs but then you'd need speaker wire going to the sub and THEN to the left/right channel.

I once had an odd shaped room that was open on one side-- killer as my surrounds are dipole. I switched to monopole rears and hid the speakers to the sides of the couch pointing straight up at the ceiling. Guess what? Worked great! I still had fairly accurate imaging while retaining most of the diffuse sound I so appreciate from my dipole rears.

Understand, I'm not trying to piss anyone off it's just that the difference between even a very basic two channel system and the typical soundbar is so extreme that I really think more people would find room (both physically and in the budget) for the two channel system if they heard it. Just the ability to reposition the drivers is a mammoth upgrade to the fixed nature of the soundbar (this doesn't apply to the Yamaha sound projector as it's design takes in to account the limited stereo seperation). Add to that the fact an amp/stereo pair will allow you to do so much more and I really think it's the better choice. That being said, my uncle just purchased a set of the Andrew Jones pioneer speakers in 5.1 and he says he's mighty impressed. I have yet to hear them myself but I've seen a lot of praise for this man's products around the web and it makes me curious to hear the unit bond007 posted a link to.

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post #8740 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST. Doesn't seem to be as many people with pretty big issues over in that thread. Unless I just read over it. Not being able to watch a football game without something retaining seems pretty bad considering how on replays and commercials it's not showing up and should be wiped out.

I've read a lot of the ST60 thread because up until the Black Friday/Cyber Monday weekend I was planning on purchasing a 60ST60. The price drop on the 60VT60 combined with the 60ST60 staying the same meant only a $250 difference. I couldn't pass on the 60VT60. Other than the potential for fan noise on the VT60 I never got the impression that the VT60 was better or worse than the ST60 with regard to IR.

It seems it's luck of the draw. Some panels are more susceptible for whatever reason(s). Some people get IR day one. Others initially don't have IR and then at 500 or 1000 hrs they suddenly start seeing it. Yet, others claim never to have IR despite playing tons of games and watching lots of sports. Beyond panels differing, people's viewing habits differ, people's perception of IR differs.

I'm a gamer and watch a lot of sports, particularly soccer. As great as the VT60 is I couldn't pass it up despite the risk of IR.
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post #8741 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST. Doesn't seem to be as many people with pretty big issues over in that thread. Unless I just read over it. Not being able to watch a football game without something retaining seems pretty bad considering how on replays and commercials it's not showing up and should be wiped out.

It's a couple of people on a forum that had/have issues, not the entire run. I think it's wise to keep some perspective when reading any forum in general that what you read is a small sample size. And as with anything in life you can read 100 reviews of people that love something but then see 2 negative reviews and all of a sudden we second guess our decisions.

PSN ID: javant86

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post #8742 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:54 PM
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You want OCD, or how about partial psychosis? Try: Audiocircle

Here's another good one:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/forums/audio-hardware.5/
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post #8743 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 01:58 PM
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To share a little of my experience with others I beat Super Mario 3D world *post game spoiler ahead Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
and am currently on the special stages
and haven't seen any IR on my panel.

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post #8744 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kamouflage View Post

It's a couple of people on a forum that had/have issues, not the entire run. I think it's wise to keep some perspective when reading any forum in general that what you read is a small sample size. And as with anything in life you can read 100 reviews of people that love something but then see 2 negative reviews and all of a sudden we second guess our decisions.
I just needed perspective from both ends from people who had been following the line and this thread.

The plasma I am replacing was used exclusively for playing NCAA football on the 360 for almost 8 months at one point and then probably 75% over the next 3 releases. So the EA logo and ESPN score bar are legitimately burned in, but unless I am on a white screen and look for it I still cannot tell. So I can't say I am too worried about seeing IR if I can only see it while playing slides and being right up on the screen looking for it.
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post #8745 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jarsofwei View Post

Yikes, is that still the one u-play logo from AC4 that's stuck? or are there other hud elements stuck too?

edit: how long of a stretch do you typically play games for? i only do 1-2 hours max at a time..

Yeah, the AC4 uplay logo. I play games for long stretches, but the day I got this IR was probably around 2-3 hours. I was just screwing around on side missions and with the PS4 still being new, I was switching games fairly frequently.

That's physically the only thing ever that has stuck for more than a few seconds. I've beat Killzone and played countless MP, Need for Speed, Resogun out the wahoo, beat Call of Duty (rental) in one sitting, etc. The only thing I can guess is that it's because it was a bright solid white object.
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post #8746 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by forensick View Post

Yeah, the AC4 uplay logo. I play games for long stretches, but the day I got this IR was probably around 2-3 hours. I was just screwing around on side missions and with the PS4 still being new, I was switching games fairly frequently.

That's physically the only thing ever that has stuck for more than a few seconds. I've beat Killzone and played countless MP, Need for Speed, Resogun out the wahoo, beat Call of Duty (rental) in one sitting, etc. The only thing I can guess is that it's because it was a bright solid white object.

Gosh that's annoying and I'm sorry to hear that. The u-play logo is pretty obnoxious. I guess I've gotta figure out how to turn off u-play before i get my tv.. please do let us know if it eventually goes away..
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post #8747 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jarsofwei View Post

Gosh that's annoying and I'm sorry to hear that. The u-play logo is pretty obnoxious. I guess I've gotta figure out how to turn off u-play before i get my tv.. please do let us know if it eventually goes away..

Even if you disconnect from uplay, the icon is still there, just greyed out a little! The only way to get rid of it is to turn off the entire mini-map (which isn't really a legit option).

I'll definitely let you know if/when it clears up.
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post #8748 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:35 PM
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With some of the great prices on this lately I think I am ready to pull the trigger for christmas. A few questions first as this would be my 1st plasma:

1. I watch a lot of sports and play my fair share of games. The IR issues concern me, even though complaints are surely exponentially in the minority vs those who are content with their sets. I see their warranty doesn't cover IR, is it worth considering 3-4 years of a square trade warranty in case something permanent happens for $120-180? I do have the Disney W.O.W. disc to use as well.

2. Speaking of the W.O.W. disc, while not a substitute for professional calibration, and from someone who never had their Vizio 42" LCD calibrated, should this be enough to tweak a reasonably good picture out of the set? Are there other online settings I should consider?

3. Slides. Yes? No? Maybe? I saw Dnice's slides, I believe they are for all the 2013 Pannies? How many people use them at first start for the 100 hours as recommended?

Thanks folks!
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post #8749 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by borat!!! View Post

Thank you Larry, it confirms my own suspicions that warm2 is too earthy with a color temp prolly 6300. its nice to see how uniform red and green are.
i may actually stick with warm1, as they are essentially the same DeltaE accept a little cooler. One more question is it possible to see where the gamma lies at each setting, (2.2, 2.4, 2.6) im not sure what setting you were using, thank you again great charts

I measured them all with the factory default Gamma settings but I did not note them. You can look at your default settings. Normally, they are set at 2.4 which yields a measured gamma of about 2.2 or so. Rule of thumb: If you decrease the Gamma setting (say from 2.4 to 2.2), the measured gamma point curve will decrease by close to 0.2 pretty evenly across the range.

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post #8750 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST. Doesn't seem to be as many people with pretty big issues over in that thread. Unless I just read over it. Not being able to watch a football game without something retaining seems pretty bad considering how on replays and commercials it's not showing up and should be wiped out.

My ST60 displays more IR than my VT60, though it's still next to nothing on my ST60. I just notice netflix movie boxes staying around momentarily after browsing for awhile.

I've watched several Sunday's worth of NFL games and not had any logos stick on either panel.
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post #8751 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

All this IR talk has me wanting to cancel my VT order and go with an ST. Doesn't seem to be as many people with pretty big issues over in that thread. Unless I just read over it. Not being able to watch a football game without something retaining seems pretty bad considering how on replays and commercials it's not showing up and should be wiped out.
I owned an ST60. It got IR, pretty stubborn actually from watching something for 2 hours. I now have the VT. I figured if I was going to deal with IR, might as well be on one the best plasma's ever made. The VT so far seems like it has been cleaning up better. I don't care about getting IR, what I care about is how quickly it disappears.
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post #8752 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by schmiggyjk View Post

With some of the great prices on this lately I think I am ready to pull the trigger for christmas. A few questions first as this would be my 1st plasma:

1. I watch a lot of sports and play my fair share of games. The IR issues concern me, even though complaints are surely exponentially in the minority vs those who are content with their sets. I see their warranty doesn't cover IR, is it worth considering 3-4 years of a square trade warranty in case something permanent happens for $120-180? I do have the Disney W.O.W. disc to use as well.

2. Speaking of the W.O.W. disc, while not a substitute for professional calibration, and from someone who never had their Vizio 42" LCD calibrated, should this be enough to tweak a reasonably good picture out of the set? Are there other online settings I should consider?

3. Slides. Yes? No? Maybe? I saw Dnice's slides, I believe they are for all the 2013 Pannies? How many people use them at first start for the 100 hours as recommended?

Thanks folks!
Burn-in is considered customer abuse. Best Buy is the only ext. warranty that offers burn-in coverage AFAIK.
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post #8753 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmiggyjk View Post

With some of the great prices on this lately I think I am ready to pull the trigger for christmas. A few questions first as this would be my 1st plasma:

1. I watch a lot of sports and play my fair share of games. The IR issues concern me, even though complaints are surely exponentially in the minority vs those who are content with their sets. I see their warranty doesn't cover IR, is it worth considering 3-4 years of a square trade warranty in case something permanent happens for $120-180? I do have the Disney W.O.W. disc to use as well.

2. Speaking of the W.O.W. disc, while not a substitute for professional calibration, and from someone who never had their Vizio 42" LCD calibrated, should this be enough to tweak a reasonably good picture out of the set? Are there other online settings I should consider?

3. Slides. Yes? No? Maybe? I saw Dnice's slides, I believe they are for all the 2013 Pannies? How many people use them at first start for the 100 hours as recommended?

Thanks folks!

I just got a vt60 and I'm using the slides when bout watching the tv, when I do watch I do so in full screen to break it in. I dint know if a professional calibration is necessary, but I've heard of great improvements I in those who have used dnices slides and pictures settings afterwards. That's what I plan on doing.
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post #8754 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

I do- THX warm 1 please.

EDIT: The charts below are for Warm2 not Warm1. Sorry for causing any confusion. Warm1 will move the blue line up about 12-15% or so in the grayscale chart and mostly shift the magenta point clockwise.

Factory defaults with any available junk turned off.

THX Cinema grayscale:



THX Cinema gamma:



THX Cinema gamut:



N.B. Grayscale deltaE looks different from a previous post of mine because this time I used the same method for calculations that I used for the other recent posted measurements.


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post #8755 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by schmiggyjk View Post

With some of the great prices on this lately I think I am ready to pull the trigger for christmas. A few questions first as this would be my 1st plasma:

1. I watch a lot of sports and play my fair share of games. The IR issues concern me, even though complaints are surely exponentially in the minority vs those who are content with their sets. I see their warranty doesn't cover IR, is it worth considering 3-4 years of a square trade warranty in case something permanent happens for $120-180? I do have the Disney W.O.W. disc to use as well.

2. Speaking of the W.O.W. disc, while not a substitute for professional calibration, and from someone who never had their Vizio 42" LCD calibrated, should this be enough to tweak a reasonably good picture out of the set? Are there other online settings I should consider?

3. Slides. Yes? No? Maybe? I saw Dnice's slides, I believe they are for all the 2013 Pannies? How many people use them at first start for the 100 hours as recommended?

Thanks folks!
1. Only warranty that covers it is Best Buy's and it's considerably more expensive than Square Trade.

2. Yes it's a good starting point. I personally like Cnet's the best and have used them since they were posted.

3. Slides from D-Nice were only to age the phosphors in the panel the exact same way he did so his settings would translate better to your set. If you take a look at his settings thread he describes this and has a bold red disclaimer that they are not for break in to prevent any burn-in or IR. I didn't use them

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post #8756 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Factory defaults with any available junk turned off.

THX Cinema grayscale:



THX Cinema gamma:



THX Cinema gamut:



N.B. Grayscale deltaE looks different from a previous post of mine because this time I used the same method for calculations that I used for the other recent posted measurements.


Larry
Thanks for all of this info.

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post #8757 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamouflage View Post

It's a couple of people on a forum that had/have issues, not the entire run. I think it's wise to keep some perspective when reading any forum in general that what you read is a small sample size. And as with anything in life you can read 100 reviews of people that love something but then see 2 negative reviews and all of a sudden we second guess our decisions.
To be fair, it's only a couple who have chimed in this afternoon (mountain time). There are others who just haven't chimed in...either way it's something to be mindful about.
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post #8758 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamouflage View Post

1. Only warranty that covers it is Best Buy's and it's considerably more expensive than Square Trade.

2. Yes it's a good starting point. I personally like Cnet's the best and have used them since they were posted.

3. Slides from D-Nice were only to age the phosphors in the panel the exact same way he did so his settings would translate better to your set. If you take a look at his settings thread he describes this and has a bold red disclaimer that they are not for break in to prevent any burn-in or IR. I didn't use them

Okay, I will check out CNet's as well.

I can go without the TV for 4 days when it gets here so I have no problem doing this to age the phosphors and lead to a better picture. And I did note that it does nothing for IR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Burn-in is considered customer abuse. Best Buy is the only ext. warranty that offers burn-in coverage AFAIK.

Does anyone go with BB's warranty? Is it worthwhile? How often is IR permanent? Im okay with using the W.O.W. disc of the built in pixel flipper from time to time if its going to remove all the IR. But if I have to worry about permanent IR I'd almost be tempted to to try and get BB to price match and or offer a deal on their warranty.
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post #8759 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 03:09 PM
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Just took delivery of my 65"VT60 - I have joined the club! I'm replacing a 2009 Samsung PN58B860 that I have been very happy with, but at these prices and the great reviews, I couldn't resist. I am hoping the new panel will be a noticeable improvement.

Panel bought from Amazon and delivered today by Pilot. Despite the white glove delivery offered by Amazon, the Pilot driver said he was not supposed to attach the base or help me put the TV on my stand. A nice tip and a can of coke later, he helped me with both - but after I signed off on the delivery. No problem. It's cold out so I didn't turn on the TV until about 5 hours later and I'm running the slides.

I've got an October build date and zero fan noise.

For the slide break-in, is it OK to run it for 100 hours continuously?
Has anyone had issues with the slides stopping on their own while doing this?

Thanks.
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post #8760 of 14919 Old 12-19-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Factory defaults with any available junk turned off.

THX Cinema grayscale:



THX Cinema gamma:



THX Cinema gamut:



N.B. Grayscale deltaE looks different from a previous post of mine because this time I used the same method for calculations that I used for the other recent posted measurements.


Larry

Many thanks, Larry. Your measurements support what my eyes tell me, that THX in warm 1 is pretty close to spec; and that warm 2 is too warm.
I'm especially impressed with the flatness of the gamma.

Fred

Don't make 'em like they used to, but charge you double price, promise you steak but give you beans and rice.
Just ain't enough good stuff!

 

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