Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by evil_mike View Post

CNET review: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p55vt60/4505-6482_7-35567332.html

TLDR: 4/5 stars

Looks like another great review for the VT60, of course what really gets pointed out in both he F8500 and the VT60 review is how well the ST60 is performing when calibrated. My decision hasnt gotten any easier frown.gif but I guess thats a good thing that we have a number of sets that perform very well this year.
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post #992 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Yep. His post calibration numbers never look as smooth as the top traveling calibrators...maybe this is just his equipment.

I think they use high end equipment. I question their method.
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post #993 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

"forthcoming ZT60 might have even better picture quality" - this is a negative against the VT60?!

I guess every display should now have a "bad" because another display coming might have a better image. smile.gif

It does make you shake your head. rolleyes.gif
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post #994 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

He also gives the Sharp Elite a beatdown (the VT60 eclipses it in shadow detail and color accuracy, and he makes note of the cyan error causing visible distortions in a particular on-screen landscape, which I was assured was not noticeable by one of its loudest cheerleaders). He also went out of his way in mentioning the expense (as he did with the 8500, so let's see if those who responded with critical remarks about this in his 8500 rescind them...I won't hold my breath).

I'm trying to understand the value of this statement. Oh wait, there is none. The only purpose this serves is to bait two people.

But what the heck, I'll bite since Mr. Kuro is referring to me as 'one of its loudest cheerleaders' in terms of the Elite. I didn't see where he said the shadow detail was better than the Elite Mr. Kuro. And please show me where I said that a nearly full screen worth of cyan was not noticeable. Point out that post to me Mr. Kuro. What's that, you can't? Why not stick to the truth? The fact is I HAVE SAID that yes, if you displayed a large expanse of cyan, the error could be seen. Who was the first on AVS to point out the cyan error? Oh wait Mr. Kuro, it was ME. I don't hide the faults of displays I own.

What I did say was that large expanses of cyan are not often seen and thus the error is not often seen. I'll stick to that since THAT is the truth.

As a sidebar, for David to group the Elite and the 8500 together in terms of black levels, is wrong. It is simply inaccurate. We have one owner of an 8500 who also had the Elite and can testify that the Elite was significantly darker than 8500.

Oh, and BTW Mr. Kuro, he still somehow included the Elite in his 'best ever' grouping of displays he compared. A beatdown? Okeedokey.

As for the VT60, he noted that it looked 'noticeably duller' than the Elite and the 8500. That I've seen myself mutliple times and as recently as today...and you can see that in a totally dark room...even in outer space. The ABL is very aggressive and beats back (talk about a beatdown) bright scenes.

In terms of the 'best display', I'll take the very weird approach that it's entirely up to the viewer. The day that I simply follow numbers to determine what's 'best', is the day I stop going to retailers to audition these sets myself.

And is that the theme song I hear once again that Mr. Kuro always brings to the fore...."The wheels on the bus go round and round............... rolleyes.gif
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post #995 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Dumb and dumber. eek.gif

Maybe the margin for improvement has gotten to the point where they have to make up bad column entries. There are some cute ones they seem to have missed. For instance, they don't seem to be concerned with calibration difficulties. I wonder why?

Yeah, I wonder why? We know there is an issue, why is it not discussed? Some reviewers do a more thorough job than others.
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post #996 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:27 PM
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When you guys are old and dying in your beds, do you think you will say to yourselves, "man I wish I would have argued with more people on the internet about tvs when I was young" ?
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post #997 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post


I find CNet to be somewhat humdrum. wink.gif

As I've always said about CNET, just look at their reviews and then look at the owner's reviews of the same product on the same page. More often than not, you'll find almost diametrically opposed views. There are some reviews I just take with enough grains of salt that it would impact your blood pressure. wink.gif

But hey, with that said, let's face it, the VT/ZT60 are great displays, no doubt about it. But it is arguable as to what display produces the best picture. I saw both the VT60 and the 8500 today with some very mundane scenes and whenever the scene got relatively bright, the 8500 just trumped the VT60, it really did. I don't care if you're watching in a pitch black room, the aggressiveness of the VT60's ABL can't be missed.

Yesterday I was feeling differently, but after seeing this today on scenes I wouldn't have expected it to occur, it's really made me think about whether I'd be happy with how these bright scenes are handled. I might be very happy to give up a bit of MLL to get a much less aggressive ABL. That's one of the things I so enjoy about the Elite, unthrottled PQ.
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post #998 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I guess thats a good thing that we have a number of sets that perform very well this year.
You got that right wink.gif
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post #999 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:31 PM
 
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Ooh, you can feel the butthurt in that response. Never claimed you were enthusiastic about the black details, but they were apparently "good enough" for you to dispose of your 151FD (thanks to that dreaded ABL). And, if I'm not mistaken, you were accentuating the cyan defect only in scenes that were dimly lit and glossing it over otherwise (unless you had a panel with accurate color showing the same content right next to it). The review accentuated this comparison and the decoding error when it made Tree of Life comparisons. Here is someone with the panel in their possession (in a lab type setting, mind you) making critical remarks about this defect that isn't a big deal according to some. Would an owner perhaps forget about this if they moved the panel into their sole viewing environment, isolated from any other panels? Perhaps so, and you along with "many other owners" (paraphrased) suggest this isn't impossible.

You enjoy waxing poetic about how the Sharp Elite is superior to the Pioneer, almost as if it's a given, but here we have a side-by-side demonstration that doesn't elicit that same impression. It probably comes down to what you deem as good (enough) PQ parameters for your specific environment (which doesn't apply across the board) versus what other professionals do, and they oftentimes fail to meet.

What other person am I baiting, Ken? Those who cried about the "expensive" remarks in the F8500 review are curiously silent about it now.

Gimme' a break.
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post #1000 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

He posted the VT60 and F8500 MLL as .002

So am I understanding this correctly? His numbers say the Samsung & the VT60 measure the same, but the black levels are noticeably deeper on the VT60? eek.gif
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post #1001 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Looks like another great review for the VT60, of course what really gets pointed out in both he F8500 and the VT60 review is how well the ST60 is performing when calibrated. My decision hasnt gotten any easier frown.gif but I guess thats a good thing that we have a number of sets that perform very well this year.

The ST60 remains the 'steal of the year'. smile.gif
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post #1002 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Dumb and dumber. eek.gif

Maybe the margin for improvement has gotten to the point where they have to make up bad column entries. There are some cute ones they seem to have missed. For instance, they don't seem to be concerned with calibration difficulties. I wonder why?

Yeah, I wonder why? We know there is an issue, why is it not discussed? Some reviewers do a more thorough job than others.
Incompetence gets my vote. You may lean toward the conspiracy angle. wink.gif

I know one thing for sure, based on passed events, if there is a significant risk that a professional calibration will rapidly drift, leading calibrators will be reluctant to calibrate those models.
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post #1003 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

When you guys are old and dying in your beds, do you think you will say to yourselves, "man I wish I would have argued with more people on the internet about tvs when I was young" ?

That's pretty funny and so true!!!
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post #1004 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

When you guys are old and dying in your beds, do you think you will say to yourselves, "man I wish I would have argued with more people on the internet about tvs when I was young" ?

Nah Jeff, I'll probably say I wish there was more accuracy and less 'mine is bigger' when these discussions unfold. Some people just love to bait even within threads for which they have no interest in the product. We've got a few of those.
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post #1005 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

When you guys are old and dying in your beds, do you think you will say to yourselves, "man I wish I would have argued with more people on the internet about tvs when I was young" ?
Of course not. That's why we're doing it now. mad.gif
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post #1006 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Ooh, you can feel the butthurt in that response. Never claimed you were enthusiastic about the black details, but they were apparently "good enough" for you to dispose of your 151FD (thanks to that dreaded ABL). And, if I'm not mistaken, you were accentuating the cyan defect only in scenes that were dimly lit and glossing it over otherwise (unless you had a panel with accurate color showing the same content right next to it). The review accentuated this comparison and the decoding error when it made Tree of Life comparisons.

What was 'good enough' for me to dispose of my 151 was, IMO, the overall PQ of the Elite. It has a dynamic range that no Kuro could even hope to match. That's what sucked me in. Yes, the color on the Kuro is measurably more accurate, I never denied that. But once again, believe it or not, large expanse of cyan are not often seen just as large expanses of blue-green grass are not often seen. You are correct that the reviewer DID accentuate the decoding error with that scene. Big whoop. Who cares? Really? If my viewing consisted of mostly the glass blocks on the Today Show that made me first aware of the problem or large expanse of blue-green grass, then perhaps I'd be a bit concerned. But I suggest you poll owners and ask them a) How often do they see the error and b) Does it bother them.

As I've said multiple times, it seems to bother those that do NOT own the set. Most owners find that very amusing.
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

You enjoy waxing poetic about how the Sharp Elite is superior to the Pioneer, almost as if it's a given, but here we have a side-by-side demonstration that doesn't elicit that same impression. It probably comes down to what you deem as good (enough) PQ parameters for your specific environment (which doesn't apply across the board) versus what other professionals do, and they oftentimes fail to meet.

No Vinnie, I only mentioned the Elite because YOU took such joy in knocking it. Your baiting was a bit more than subtle. But you're good at that, I'll give you that.

As for this review, there have been reviews in the past that also called the Elite 'the best ever display'. It's opinion Mr. Kuro, it's opinion. And here's a stunner. Even reviewers can have opinions. Whod'a thunk?
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

What other person am I baiting, Ken? Those who cried about the "expensive" remarks in the F8500 review are curiously silent about it now.

Gimme' a break.

Yes Mr. Kuro, 'gimme a break'. Since I never said that, we know you're not talking about me. I know very well who you're talking about and I'll let her comment on that if she so chooses. But she may be smarter than me and just not take your bait. wink.gif
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post #1007 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fIErcEfAntOm07 View Post

That's pretty funny and so true!!!

With a screen name like yours, nobody will ever argue with you! It would take too long. biggrin.gif
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post #1008 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 07:54 PM
 
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Blah...should've let the review speak for itself. smile.gif And the one whom you are referencing engages in some baiting of his/her own (unless you think I was being intentionally deceptive when I made the simple comment that I'd like to see my panel and the 8500 in a side-by-side comparison), so let's not assume I hold all the guilt in the realm of ill forum relations.
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post #1009 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

As I've always said about CNET, just look at their reviews and then look at the owner's reviews of the same product on the same page. More often than not, you'll find almost diametrically opposed views. There are some reviews I just take with enough grains of salt that it would impact your blood pressure. wink.gif

But hey, with that said, let's face it, the VT/ZT60 are great displays, no doubt about it. But it is arguable as to what display produces the best picture. I saw both the VT60 and the 8500 today with some very mundane scenes and whenever the scene got relatively bright, the 8500 just trumped the VT60, it really did. I don't care if you're watching in a pitch black room, the aggressiveness of the VT60's ABL can't be missed.

Yesterday I was feeling differently, but after seeing this today on scenes I wouldn't have expected it to occur, it's really made me think about whether I'd be happy with how these bright scenes are handled. I might be very happy to give up a bit of MLL to get a much less aggressive ABL. That's one of the things I so enjoy about the Elite, unthrottled PQ.

Ken,

I dont see why every post of yours is anti -panny. We get it, you prefer the Sammy. But these posts questioning the integrity/ability/motives of Cnet are rediculous. Im guessing had they rated the f8500 as the panel to beat, you wouldnt have had an issue.

They arent the only ones to rate the VT (not even ZT) higher than the f8500 this year. Practically every major site has as well. So mayb whate you "see" in terms of direct comparisons between the sets is not as accurate from a professional av standpoint. But then again, what you see should be all that matters to you anyways - just dont knock every reviewer for disagreeing.
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post #1010 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:04 PM
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Uh oh!!!

"During the end of my testing process our 60-inch ZT60 review sample arrived, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity. Based on early comparisons, before the ZT60 was aged the requisite 100+ hours, the two panels appeared very similar when both were set to THX Cinema mode. Black levels were almost identical, with the VT60 surprisingly having a slight edge. I'll reserve judgment until we can run our full suite of tests on the ZT60, including aging and calibration, but based on this initial look, the VT60 could turn out to be just as good as its "beyond the reference" brother."
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post #1011 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:10 PM
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Never ends the fight for a rectangular piece (TV)...It's kind of boring...VT60 sucks, F8500 is the "best ever made" or viceversa.
I'm going with a VT60 only because suits my needs. (Better MLL and Design i forgot to mention price and maybe ZT never arrives).
But i respect people who choose the samsung...in the end of the day only matters What tv makes YOU happy.
But here, NO we have to choose a tv and then TRASH the other sets that i see in a store (It sounds pretty ridiculous to me, like taking photos to judge PQ)...but i forget that this is AVS.
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post #1012 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Ken,

I dont see why every post of yours is anti -panny. We get it, you prefer the Sammy. But these posts questioning the integrity/ability/motives of Cnet are rediculous. Im guessing had they rated the f8500 as the panel to beat, you wouldnt have had an issue.

They arent the only ones to rate the VT (not even ZT) higher than the f8500 this year. Practically every major site has as well. So mayb whate you "see" in terms of direct comparisons between the sets is not as accurate from a professional av standpoint. But then again, what you see should be all that matters to you anyways - just dont knock every reviewer for disagreeing.

Every post is anti-Panasonic? Did you read my post yesterday? I guess not. I call em as I see em and if that runs contrary to your choices, well what can I say?

We have quite a number of Panasonic lovers that take every opportunity to knock Samsung.

And perhaps you should point out my other posts where I knock 'every reviewer for disagreeing'?

A couple of you guys seem to be on a roll for embellishment tonight.

But dad, I'll keep in mind that when I see the ABL kick in on a VT60 and not on an 8500, that it's 'not as accurate from a professional av standpoint'.

Just so you know, ABL is not 'director's intent'. wink.gif
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post #1013 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Uh oh!!!

"During the end of my testing process our 60-inch ZT60 review sample arrived, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity. Based on early comparisons, before the ZT60 was aged the requisite 100+ hours, the two panels appeared very similar when both were set to THX Cinema mode. Black levels were almost identical, with the VT60 surprisingly having a slight edge. I'll reserve judgment until we can run our full suite of tests on the ZT60, including aging and calibration, but based on this initial look, the VT60 could turn out to be just as good as its "beyond the reference" brother."
I indicated that (although in a less bombastic manner) on the last page:

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Katzmaier likes it, and he gives credit where it's due to the competition. He also gives the Sharp Elite a beatdown (the VT60 eclipses it in shadow detail and color accuracy, and he makes note of the cyan error causing visible distortions in a particular on-screen landscape, which I was assured was not noticeable by one of its loudest cheerleaders). He also went out of his way in mentioning the expense (as he did with the 8500, so let's see if those who responded with critical remarks about this in his 8500 rescind them...I won't hold my breath). I didn't see any values listed for black levels (perhaps overlooked or he doesn't bother posting them).

Also telling here:
Since the 111FD has been his reference panel for last 5 years.

EDIT: No mention of calibration SNAFUs either, indeed.

He actually did measure the ZT60's black levels as a preview in the body of this review, and he reported them as being higher than the VT60 pre-break-in. Given this, the con sounds even goofier, but he had to fill the white void with something (calibration anyone?).
wink.gif
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post #1014 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:36 PM
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Yeah but Vinnie -- how is anyone supposed to decipher this -- "Given this, the con sounds even goofier, but he had to fill the white void with something (calibration anyone?)." Besides he said "almost identical" which sounds different and better than "being higher than the VT60" smile.gif
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post #1015 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:39 PM
 
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Fine, we thank you for clarifying. biggrin.gif I was just trying to spill all that in a greater hurry than I should have.
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post #1016 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by agkss View Post

Never ends the fight for a rectangular piece (TV)...It's kind of boring...VT60 sucks, F8500 is the "best ever made" or viceversa.
I'm going with a VT60 only because suits my needs. (Better MLL and Design i forgot to mention price and maybe ZT never arrives).
But i respect people who choose the samsung...in the end of the day only matters What tv makes YOU happy.
But here, NO we have to choose a tv and then TRASH the other sets that i see in a store (It sounds pretty ridiculous to me, like taking photos to judge PQ)...but i forget that this is AVS.

well said agkss....
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post #1017 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 09:03 PM
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Leave Ken alone. It's ok if his tastes are a bit different and he'd trade some PQ to avoid some ABL. If you are worried about reviews reflecting his tastes you'll also find them in the minority so don't feel misrepresented. There's always going to be the dissenting minority.

Take it up a level and pdp is the dissenting minority too wink.gif
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post #1018 of 15373 Old 05-06-2013, 10:52 PM
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Nice shot...
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post #1019 of 15373 Old 05-07-2013, 01:31 AM
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Ken, why don't you just go ahead and get an F8500. Try it for 14/30 days and report to us your long term experience.

Thanks

I agree. It sounds like you like both qualities of plasma and led. The f8500 is kind of like the best of both worlds. Im in the same boat, but havent pulled the trigger yet.
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post #1020 of 15373 Old 05-07-2013, 04:42 AM
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I can't believe the amount of bashing that goes on in these forums. I stated my opinion with the VT60 and got bashed for it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Ken Ross has been very up front about what he sees on the displays yet he gets bashed for it. I think he has offered a lot of valuable information and deserves a lot of credit for going out of his way to evaluate the panels and report his findings on the forum. The expert reviews can say what ever they want but it comes down to the individual who will be watching the set. The reviews also leave out a lot of relevant information so I take them with a grain of salt. One thing we know for sure is the 60 series has some serious calibration issues which doesn't bode well for Panasonic. Three calibrators have now commented on the calibration issues.
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