Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 343 - AVS Forum
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post #10261 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The correct Panasonic Sharpness setting is 0. Increasing Sharpness sharpens nothing. It adds white alongside black and it covers up the actual intended content and degrades picture quality. If you want to alleviate the soft look, get a Darblet.

Baloney.
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post #10262 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Oakley View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The correct Panasonic Sharpness setting is 0. Increasing Sharpness sharpens nothing. It adds white alongside black and it covers up the actual intended content and degrades picture quality. If you want to alleviate the soft look, get a Darblet.

Baloney.

Thanks. I'll inform THX immediately that Scott says they are incorrect.

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post #10263 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:33 AM
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I have to agree with Buzzard767 about sharpness control on the Panny's. I think the only reason they are included on these displays, is because the general consumer is so used to seeing it on TV's over the last 25 years, they would freak if it was not included.
If you want a sharper image, get a Darbee or lose the plasma.

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post #10264 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Thanks. I'll inform THX immediately that Scott says they are incorrect.

I meant no personal disrespect to you. My concerns are pretty well document in a thread I started called Break-In and Calibration. In summary, for me personally, there are no "correct" settings. What is "correct" for me is what looks best to me. If calibration brings that, great. But what looks "correct" to me right now are the Sound & Vision settings I referred to, with Sharpness at 80 and Warm2 set to Warm1. I think those settings (for ME) actually got better performance from my VT60.

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post #10265 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I have to agree with Buzzard767 about sharpness control on the Panny's. I think the only reason they are included on these displays, is because the general consumer is so used to seeing it on TV's over the last 25 years, they would freak if it was not included.
If you want a sharper image, get a Darbee or lose the plasma.

Thank you. smile.gif

Fact: Samsung and Panasonic = Sharpnesss 0 being the correct setting.
Fact: There are three manufacturers that have Sharpness settings that can actually soften the picture
Speculation: The reason that Samsung looks more sharp than Panasonic is due to internal Darbee-like processing

From certification training: Years ago one manufacturer added the sharpening "feature". The next year they all had it for competitive reasons. Modern HD digital displays do not require artificial enhancement. A signal is a signal and a pixel is a pixel. If your TV looks like crap it is either set up improperly or the TV's processing is sub standard (not the case with Panasonic).

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post #10266 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Thanks. I'll inform THX immediately that Scott says they are incorrect.
Haha.

The funny thing though is the THX default setting has sharpness set to 50. Also CNET and Sound and Vision both list their calibration settings with 50 which is why I started questioning the sharpness levels on this T.V.
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post #10267 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:48 AM
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Can't seem to find the answer, but is 1080p direct mode going to cause problems? I mainly just use my ps3 and my laptop via hdmi. Anyway to know if they're right for 1080p direct? Didn't notice any additional input lag or anything in game mode with 1080p direct on or off.

Also, anyone with sound settings for the internal speakers? I actually use my headphones most of the time, so not too interested in external speakers for now. I feel the surround on native sounds best. Don't notice much of a diff between bass boost on or off, other than some boominess. Also, the digital remaster option makes things a hint clearer.

I'm an audiophile in terms of headphones, but not so much when watching content and listening through external speakers...

If you don't me asking, what kind of headphones are you using?  I've got some Bose QuietComfort 15s, but at present cant use them due the lack of a headphone jack.  So I'm shopping for an alternative.

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post #10268 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:49 AM
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Then why is the default THX sharpness value 50?
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post #10269 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:57 AM
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^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"

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post #10270 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Oakley View Post

I meant no personal disrespect to you. My concerns are pretty well document in a thread I started called Break-In and Calibration. In summary, for me personally, there are no "correct" settings. What is "correct" for me is what looks best to me. If calibration brings that, great. But what looks "correct" to me right now are the Sound & Vision settings I referred to, with Sharpness at 80 and Warm2 set to Warm1. I think those settings (for ME) actually got better performance from my VT60.

Hello Scott,
I am not trying to stir the pot...and I do agree with you that your choices in video settings may look better to YOU....but please.. let's not get Personal preference confused with Calibrated Reference.
Preference = what looks best to you..regardless if it is correct or not.
Reference= adjusted to meet a given set of standards

If this truely is a discussion about CALIBRATION...then we should be looking at Reference...Not Personal Preference.

Just my $.02
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post #10271 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Codeman00 View Post

That's the only thing I can think of too is the overhang and some kind of a safety issue. Weight it weight...no matter how big the TV is or what type, 165 lbs is 165 lbs. You should be fine unless you have rowdy kids that like to run around the TV stand.

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'd rather be a smidge over spec in size than anywhere near spec in weight.

Plus, it seems their aren't any stands out there that my fiancé likes that are under the cost of a 60VT.

For the time being, this should work fine.

Hopefully.
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post #10272 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"

To make the picture less appealing to Sammy soft eyes smile.gif

When I look at the world around me I don't see a red tinted (warm 2), faded edged (sharpness 0), color washed wasteland I see vibrant colors and defined borders. I prefer my set to reflect this. Or maybe I just play too many games. Either way if we're talking about a written standard like THX, I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.
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post #10273 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

Then why is the default THX sharpness value 50?

I truly don't know, however, the answer to the correct sharpness setting is found one way and one way only. Use a sharpness pattern from a pattern generator or a pattern disc.

There is only one correct sharp setting, just as there is only one correct Brightness setting - no exceptions.

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post #10274 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DLF54927 View Post

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'd rather be a smidge over spec in size than anywhere near spec in weight.

Plus, it seems their aren't any stands out there that my fiancé likes that are under the cost of a 60VT.

For the time being, this should work fine.

Hopefully.

You should be fine with your setup. Just be careful with it. Weight limits are obvious -- if it's too heavy it will collapse the stand. The width limits are about safety and stability. If there is overhang, there is the risk of someone bumping into the edge and knocking the set off the stand. Likewise, if the stand is too narrow, the center of gravity will be too high and the stand will be easily thrown off balance, making it susceptible to tipping.

So basically, if you're confident that no one is going to clip the edge when walking by, and that the base is wide enough that the center of gravity will remain low (i.e. that the stand itself is not going to tip), you're golden in terms of safety.
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post #10275 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.

Absolutely. Every man to himself. Calibration is not for everyone. smile.gif

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post #10276 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

To make the picture less appealing to Sammy soft eyes smile.gif

When I look at the world around me I don't see a red tinted (warm 2), faded edged (sharpness 0), color washed wasteland I see vibrant colors and defined borders. I prefer my set to reflect this. Or maybe I just play too many games. Either way if we're talking about a written standard like THX, I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.


In no way was I "jabbing" at anyone. People can watch there TV's anyway they see fit, I could care less. The point I am making along with some others, is that "sharpness" adds NOTHING to modern displays. It is there because the general TV watcher (Joe six pack, again) would wonder why it is not there and freak! "Sharpness" belongs with the other useless "picture enhancement" controls IMHO.

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post #10277 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 10:09 AM
 
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Besides, sharpness is a setting from a bygone era of analog displays. Artificial sharpness pleases a lot people obviously, so leaving it in makes sense from a marketing perspective. I still want to try a Darbee at some point.
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post #10278 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"
Why would THX sacrifice the best picture quality and their brand for "joe six pack"? Joe six pack probably isn't buying a VT, and if he did it would be set to Vivid mode. smile.gif
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post #10279 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

Hello Scott,
I am not trying to stir the pot...and I do agree with you that your choices in video settings may look better to YOU....but please.. let's not get Personal preference confused with Calibrated Reference.
Preference = what looks best to you..regardless if it is correct or not.
Reference= adjusted to meet a given set of standards

If this truely is a discussion about CALIBRATION...then we should be looking at Reference...Not Personal Preference.

Just my $.02
RayJr

Ray, I think a discussion of calibration can certainly include personal preference. Why not? Also, I have been very careful in all of my posts and my thread (Burn-In and Calibration) to distinquish preference from reference. I have used the terms objective vs. subjective. Same things. You might enjoy reading that thread.

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post #10280 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 10:55 AM
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Curious why the Disney WOW disc would have a test pattern for sharpness if it should be set to zero. Not questioning anyone knowledge here but more curious then anything else.
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post #10281 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Curious why the Disney WOW disc would have a test pattern for sharpness if it should be set to zero. Not questioning anyone knowledge here but more curious then anything else.

I know when Chad B had been out previously to calibrate my VT60, he had a very elaborate, advanced customized sharpness pattern we looked at where you could get a better look at a wide range of vertical and horizontal frequency patterns for the setting. Going all of the way up to 25 or 30 (cannot recall exactly) did offer some benefit at some frequencies, but also added artifacts/EE at other frequencies. Looking at content and more typical patterns (Munsil, AVS), I could not really tell a difference but I have not looked at the WOW disc pattern - maybe I will give it a spin. However, I am very sensitive to edge enhancement and think it really hurts a natural, film-like image with any trace of haloing, so I keep mine at zero. With that said, for broadcasts and given the wide range of variation with signals, I could see some stations that might benefit from it to some degree. If you use it at all with Blu-ray, I would be very conservative.

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post #10282 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 12:35 PM
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You know, every few days I come here to catch up on this thread and every few days I wonder why I did. There is very little useful information being shared in this thread anymore. I see a lot of FUD and a lot of dead horse beating-- speaking of beating a dead horse can we get an amendment to the title of this thread pointing out that panasonic isn't (and hasn't for some time) been a good choice for people looking for an overly bright display??

This should be a place for owners to discuss their experiences and share information. It should be a place where prospective buyers can research their choices. Instead, it's bloated with misinformation and arguments that are starting to look more like pissing matches. I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone and I like the exchanges I've had with many of you-- even those who I don't agree with! That's part of the fun of this hobby: to have differences of opinion and talk about it like adults. I know I have a pretty odd sense of humor and I do enjoy pressing some members' buttons but this is getting ridiculous. I give credit to those trying to keep this careening thread on track but I think you'd have a better time trying to convince me not to send inappropriate texts to my ex at two in the morning after I've drunk my feelings for the last five hours.

This thread is becoming less and less useful and is in danger of becoming completely irrelevant for everyone. Just my 2 cents.

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post #10283 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I truly don't know, however, the answer to the correct sharpness setting is found one way and one way only. Use a sharpness pattern from a pattern generator or a pattern disc.

There is only one correct sharp setting, just as there is only one correct Brightness setting - no exceptions.

So using my overscan pattern from DVR HD Basics, below about 20 the pattern looks artificially soft to me, and over about 80
I can see noise.
I set mine up using small text, and set sharpness to where it looked best in focus with no artificial edging,
and got a setting of about 20.

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.

But hey, try it on your own set, my patterns after all are coming from my computer, possibly the video card is doing
something it is not set for.

But the eyes are the final judge of this, whatever looks best to you probably is best, at least where sharpness is concerned.
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post #10284 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 12:55 PM
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Wow.
I'm going to push this because, well, why the hell not. I ain't scared of no ban! This is attempt 2.0. Please, accept this as my attempt at a more 'helpful' response to the the sharpness argument.

Great thread on the subject already on (imagine that) AVSforum: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1401545/for-those-who-recommend-turning-sharpness-to-0

Referencing a great YouTube video explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnAaqy7mRLQ

Even AVSforum's own AVS 709 setup disc has a video on this subject: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

Bottom line, Sharpness to zero isn't correct. Setting sharpness too low can introduce the same loss of detail as setting it too high.
I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone or trounce on anyone's sensibilities pointing out that it's 2014 and the sharpness argument has been beaten to ****ing death by now.

I'd like to the thank the AVS community and the AVS moderators for allowing me this time to speak... er-- post.

Excuse me while I go piss excellence.

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post #10285 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

You know, every few days I come here to catch up on this thread and every few days I wonder why I did. There is very little useful information being shared in this thread anymore. I see a lot of FUD and a lot of dead horse beating-- speaking of beating a dead horse can we get an amendment to the title of this thread pointing out that panasonic isn't (and hasn't for some time) been a good choice for people looking for an overly bright display??

This should be a place for owners to discuss their experiences and share information. It should be a place where prospective buyers can research their choices. Instead, it's bloated with misinformation and arguments that are starting to look more like pissing matches. I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone and I like the exchanges I've had with many of you-- even those who I don't agree with! That's part of the fun of this hobby: to have differences of opinion and talk about it like adults. I know I have a pretty odd sense of humor and I do enjoy pressing some members' buttons but this is getting ridiculous. I give credit to those trying to keep this careening thread on track but I think you'd have a better time trying to convince me not to send inappropriate texts to my ex at two in the morning after I've drunk my feelings for the last five hours.

This thread is becoming less and less useful and is in danger of becoming completely irrelevant for everyone. Just my 2 cents.

I couldn't agree more. Except - aren't you doing what you are criticizing?
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post #10286 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I know when Chad B had been out previously to calibrate my VT60, he had a very elaborate, advanced customized sharpness pattern we looked at where you could get a better look at a wide range of vertical and horizontal frequency patterns for the setting. Going all of the way up to 25 or 30 (cannot recall exactly) did offer some benefit at some frequencies, but also added artifacts/EE at other frequencies. Looking at content and more typical patterns (Munsil, AVS), I could not really tell a difference but I have not looked at the WOW disc pattern - maybe I will give it a spin. However, I am very sensitive to edge enhancement and think it really hurts a natural, film-like image with any trace of haloing, so I keep mine at zero. With that said, for broadcasts and given the wide range of variation with signals, I could see some stations that might benefit from it to some degree. If you use it at all with Blu-ray, I would be very conservative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

So using my overscan pattern from DVR HD Basics, below about 20 the pattern looks artificially soft to me, and over about 80
I can see noise.
I set mine up using small text, and set sharpness to where it looked best in focus with no artificial edging,
and got a setting of about 20.

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.

But hey, try it on your own set, my patterns after all are coming from my computer, possibly the video card is doing
something it is not set for.

But the eyes are the final judge of this, whatever looks best to you probably is best, at least where sharpness is concerned.

I think these are two sensible opinions on the matter.

I too keep mine set fairly low as I mostly watch movies and TV but as FCB stated, setting it too low results in a loss of detail for me and makes the set look overly soft.

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post #10287 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 01:45 PM
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Does anyone know if the 65VT60 passes 5.1 audio through the optical out?
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post #10288 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 01:50 PM
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Update on the panel brightness issue...which as much as I would like it to go away, its still an issue. I've been watching all of my content with CNETs beautiful settings and enjoying it...until today when I watched a college basketball game. Our home white uniforms didn't look white and I could barely make out faces in the crowd, etc. As I'm watching my game, my mind is thinking more about the low panel brightness than anything. (Note that there is a window in my man cave with sunshine coming through). Finally, I moved to THX bright and all of the concerns of darkness went away instantly. Now, my modified THX Bright room settings have been modified a bit...Contrast on 85, Color on -5 and Panel set to Warm 1 to combat the green/yellow look. Skin tones of players were a bit green...but I have nothing to combat that with in THX Bright Mode.

This really tells me that I need some settings that are as bright as THX Bright room...but in Prof 2 to allow more fine adjustments. Again, does anyone have settings for Pro that are as bright as THX bright room that I can try?

And also, can a calibrator come to my house and calibrate my panel at the brightness of THX Bright mode? From Buzz's posts, it looks like it would take some special equipment and a little bit of extrapolation, but its seems possible. Is it possible and what calibrator can guarantee such a task? Do you think that THX Bright room settings are with Panel brightness High?

I think its going to be THX Brightroom settings during the day from now on. D*** you Panasonic for not making this panel brighter! I hate using the max settings just to get a picture I can appreciate in a dim to moderately bright room.
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post #10289 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb4 View Post

Does anyone know if the 65VT60 passes 5.1 audio through the optical out?

As far as I know it doesn't-- it's only for outputting 5.1 sources on the set itself (the tuner, streaming apps, etc).

It's been that way on every set I've owned, two of which were panasonics. I assumed this was the same but maybe someone else can weigh in definitively?

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post #10290 of 14810 Old 01-12-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.
.


That is almost certainly correct, which would explain why Panasonic uses 50 as its default in all Picture modes.

And not to go too far down this particular rabbit hole, but this refusal to adjust the (Gasp!) Sharpness setting even though it may perceptibly improve the image is straight-up dogma. (And stating that the correct Sharpness setting for all Panasonics is 0, is not only dogmatic—it is also just plain incorrect!)
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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