Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 343 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10261 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 07:57 AM
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^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"

Main HT Room: Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV3, Sony BDP-S5100, Speakers: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers, Sierra Horizon and HTM-200SE, Dual Power Sound Audio XV15 Subwoofers
Basement HT Room: Panny TC-P58V10 (Black Level Restored!), Denon AVR-E300, Comcast X1 STB, Sony BDP-S590, Speakers: Wave Crest Audio HVL-1 (L/C/R), Pioneer SP-BS 22 (Surr) and Power Sound Audio XV15 Subwoofer
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post #10262 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Oakley View Post

I meant no personal disrespect to you. My concerns are pretty well document in a thread I started called Break-In and Calibration. In summary, for me personally, there are no "correct" settings. What is "correct" for me is what looks best to me. If calibration brings that, great. But what looks "correct" to me right now are the Sound & Vision settings I referred to, with Sharpness at 80 and Warm2 set to Warm1. I think those settings (for ME) actually got better performance from my VT60.

Hello Scott,
I am not trying to stir the pot...and I do agree with you that your choices in video settings may look better to YOU....but please.. let's not get Personal preference confused with Calibrated Reference.
Preference = what looks best to you..regardless if it is correct or not.
Reference= adjusted to meet a given set of standards

If this truely is a discussion about CALIBRATION...then we should be looking at Reference...Not Personal Preference.

Just my $.02
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post #10263 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Codeman00 View Post

That's the only thing I can think of too is the overhang and some kind of a safety issue. Weight it weight...no matter how big the TV is or what type, 165 lbs is 165 lbs. You should be fine unless you have rowdy kids that like to run around the TV stand.

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'd rather be a smidge over spec in size than anywhere near spec in weight.

Plus, it seems their aren't any stands out there that my fiancé likes that are under the cost of a 60VT.

For the time being, this should work fine.

Hopefully.
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post #10264 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"

To make the picture less appealing to Sammy soft eyes smile.gif

When I look at the world around me I don't see a red tinted (warm 2), faded edged (sharpness 0), color washed wasteland I see vibrant colors and defined borders. I prefer my set to reflect this. Or maybe I just play too many games. Either way if we're talking about a written standard like THX, I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.
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post #10265 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

Then why is the default THX sharpness value 50?

I truly don't know, however, the answer to the correct sharpness setting is found one way and one way only. Use a sharpness pattern from a pattern generator or a pattern disc.

There is only one correct sharp setting, just as there is only one correct Brightness setting - no exceptions.

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post #10266 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DLF54927 View Post

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'd rather be a smidge over spec in size than anywhere near spec in weight.

Plus, it seems their aren't any stands out there that my fiancé likes that are under the cost of a 60VT.

For the time being, this should work fine.

Hopefully.

You should be fine with your setup. Just be careful with it. Weight limits are obvious -- if it's too heavy it will collapse the stand. The width limits are about safety and stability. If there is overhang, there is the risk of someone bumping into the edge and knocking the set off the stand. Likewise, if the stand is too narrow, the center of gravity will be too high and the stand will be easily thrown off balance, making it susceptible to tipping.

So basically, if you're confident that no one is going to clip the edge when walking by, and that the base is wide enough that the center of gravity will remain low (i.e. that the stand itself is not going to tip), you're golden in terms of safety.
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post #10267 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.

Absolutely. Every man to himself. Calibration is not for everyone. smile.gif

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post #10268 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

To make the picture less appealing to Sammy soft eyes smile.gif

When I look at the world around me I don't see a red tinted (warm 2), faded edged (sharpness 0), color washed wasteland I see vibrant colors and defined borders. I prefer my set to reflect this. Or maybe I just play too many games. Either way if we're talking about a written standard like THX, I agree with Ray there is a "correct," but please don't jab condescending innuendos at people based on their preference if they're clearly stating it as such.


In no way was I "jabbing" at anyone. People can watch there TV's anyway they see fit, I could care less. The point I am making along with some others, is that "sharpness" adds NOTHING to modern displays. It is there because the general TV watcher (Joe six pack, again) would wonder why it is not there and freak! "Sharpness" belongs with the other useless "picture enhancement" controls IMHO.

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post #10269 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 10:09 AM
 
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Besides, sharpness is a setting from a bygone era of analog displays. Artificial sharpness pleases a lot people obviously, so leaving it in makes sense from a marketing perspective. I still want to try a Darbee at some point.
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post #10270 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

^^^^To make the THX picture mode more appealing to "Joe six pack"
Why would THX sacrifice the best picture quality and their brand for "joe six pack"? Joe six pack probably isn't buying a VT, and if he did it would be set to Vivid mode. smile.gif
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post #10271 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

Hello Scott,
I am not trying to stir the pot...and I do agree with you that your choices in video settings may look better to YOU....but please.. let's not get Personal preference confused with Calibrated Reference.
Preference = what looks best to you..regardless if it is correct or not.
Reference= adjusted to meet a given set of standards

If this truely is a discussion about CALIBRATION...then we should be looking at Reference...Not Personal Preference.

Just my $.02
RayJr

Ray, I think a discussion of calibration can certainly include personal preference. Why not? Also, I have been very careful in all of my posts and my thread (Burn-In and Calibration) to distinquish preference from reference. I have used the terms objective vs. subjective. Same things. You might enjoy reading that thread.

Scott

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post #10272 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 10:55 AM
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Curious why the Disney WOW disc would have a test pattern for sharpness if it should be set to zero. Not questioning anyone knowledge here but more curious then anything else.
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post #10273 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Curious why the Disney WOW disc would have a test pattern for sharpness if it should be set to zero. Not questioning anyone knowledge here but more curious then anything else.

I know when Chad B had been out previously to calibrate my VT60, he had a very elaborate, advanced customized sharpness pattern we looked at where you could get a better look at a wide range of vertical and horizontal frequency patterns for the setting. Going all of the way up to 25 or 30 (cannot recall exactly) did offer some benefit at some frequencies, but also added artifacts/EE at other frequencies. Looking at content and more typical patterns (Munsil, AVS), I could not really tell a difference but I have not looked at the WOW disc pattern - maybe I will give it a spin. However, I am very sensitive to edge enhancement and think it really hurts a natural, film-like image with any trace of haloing, so I keep mine at zero. With that said, for broadcasts and given the wide range of variation with signals, I could see some stations that might benefit from it to some degree. If you use it at all with Blu-ray, I would be very conservative.


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post #10274 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 12:35 PM
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You know, every few days I come here to catch up on this thread and every few days I wonder why I did. There is very little useful information being shared in this thread anymore. I see a lot of FUD and a lot of dead horse beating-- speaking of beating a dead horse can we get an amendment to the title of this thread pointing out that panasonic isn't (and hasn't for some time) been a good choice for people looking for an overly bright display??

This should be a place for owners to discuss their experiences and share information. It should be a place where prospective buyers can research their choices. Instead, it's bloated with misinformation and arguments that are starting to look more like pissing matches. I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone and I like the exchanges I've had with many of you-- even those who I don't agree with! That's part of the fun of this hobby: to have differences of opinion and talk about it like adults. I know I have a pretty odd sense of humor and I do enjoy pressing some members' buttons but this is getting ridiculous. I give credit to those trying to keep this careening thread on track but I think you'd have a better time trying to convince me not to send inappropriate texts to my ex at two in the morning after I've drunk my feelings for the last five hours.

This thread is becoming less and less useful and is in danger of becoming completely irrelevant for everyone. Just my 2 cents.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #10275 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I truly don't know, however, the answer to the correct sharpness setting is found one way and one way only. Use a sharpness pattern from a pattern generator or a pattern disc.

There is only one correct sharp setting, just as there is only one correct Brightness setting - no exceptions.

So using my overscan pattern from DVR HD Basics, below about 20 the pattern looks artificially soft to me, and over about 80
I can see noise.
I set mine up using small text, and set sharpness to where it looked best in focus with no artificial edging,
and got a setting of about 20.

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.

But hey, try it on your own set, my patterns after all are coming from my computer, possibly the video card is doing
something it is not set for.

But the eyes are the final judge of this, whatever looks best to you probably is best, at least where sharpness is concerned.
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post #10276 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 12:55 PM
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Wow.
I'm going to push this because, well, why the hell not. I ain't scared of no ban! This is attempt 2.0. Please, accept this as my attempt at a more 'helpful' response to the the sharpness argument.

Great thread on the subject already on (imagine that) AVSforum: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1401545/for-those-who-recommend-turning-sharpness-to-0

Referencing a great YouTube video explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnAaqy7mRLQ

Even AVSforum's own AVS 709 setup disc has a video on this subject: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

Bottom line, Sharpness to zero isn't correct. Setting sharpness too low can introduce the same loss of detail as setting it too high.
I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone or trounce on anyone's sensibilities pointing out that it's 2014 and the sharpness argument has been beaten to ****ing death by now.

I'd like to the thank the AVS community and the AVS moderators for allowing me this time to speak... er-- post.

Excuse me while I go piss excellence.

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post #10277 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

You know, every few days I come here to catch up on this thread and every few days I wonder why I did. There is very little useful information being shared in this thread anymore. I see a lot of FUD and a lot of dead horse beating-- speaking of beating a dead horse can we get an amendment to the title of this thread pointing out that panasonic isn't (and hasn't for some time) been a good choice for people looking for an overly bright display??

This should be a place for owners to discuss their experiences and share information. It should be a place where prospective buyers can research their choices. Instead, it's bloated with misinformation and arguments that are starting to look more like pissing matches. I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone and I like the exchanges I've had with many of you-- even those who I don't agree with! That's part of the fun of this hobby: to have differences of opinion and talk about it like adults. I know I have a pretty odd sense of humor and I do enjoy pressing some members' buttons but this is getting ridiculous. I give credit to those trying to keep this careening thread on track but I think you'd have a better time trying to convince me not to send inappropriate texts to my ex at two in the morning after I've drunk my feelings for the last five hours.

This thread is becoming less and less useful and is in danger of becoming completely irrelevant for everyone. Just my 2 cents.

I couldn't agree more. Except - aren't you doing what you are criticizing?
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post #10278 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I know when Chad B had been out previously to calibrate my VT60, he had a very elaborate, advanced customized sharpness pattern we looked at where you could get a better look at a wide range of vertical and horizontal frequency patterns for the setting. Going all of the way up to 25 or 30 (cannot recall exactly) did offer some benefit at some frequencies, but also added artifacts/EE at other frequencies. Looking at content and more typical patterns (Munsil, AVS), I could not really tell a difference but I have not looked at the WOW disc pattern - maybe I will give it a spin. However, I am very sensitive to edge enhancement and think it really hurts a natural, film-like image with any trace of haloing, so I keep mine at zero. With that said, for broadcasts and given the wide range of variation with signals, I could see some stations that might benefit from it to some degree. If you use it at all with Blu-ray, I would be very conservative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

So using my overscan pattern from DVR HD Basics, below about 20 the pattern looks artificially soft to me, and over about 80
I can see noise.
I set mine up using small text, and set sharpness to where it looked best in focus with no artificial edging,
and got a setting of about 20.

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.

But hey, try it on your own set, my patterns after all are coming from my computer, possibly the video card is doing
something it is not set for.

But the eyes are the final judge of this, whatever looks best to you probably is best, at least where sharpness is concerned.

I think these are two sensible opinions on the matter.

I too keep mine set fairly low as I mostly watch movies and TV but as FCB stated, setting it too low results in a loss of detail for me and makes the set look overly soft.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

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post #10279 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 01:45 PM
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Does anyone know if the 65VT60 passes 5.1 audio through the optical out?
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post #10280 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 01:50 PM
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Update on the panel brightness issue...which as much as I would like it to go away, its still an issue. I've been watching all of my content with CNETs beautiful settings and enjoying it...until today when I watched a college basketball game. Our home white uniforms didn't look white and I could barely make out faces in the crowd, etc. As I'm watching my game, my mind is thinking more about the low panel brightness than anything. (Note that there is a window in my man cave with sunshine coming through). Finally, I moved to THX bright and all of the concerns of darkness went away instantly. Now, my modified THX Bright room settings have been modified a bit...Contrast on 85, Color on -5 and Panel set to Warm 1 to combat the green/yellow look. Skin tones of players were a bit green...but I have nothing to combat that with in THX Bright Mode.

This really tells me that I need some settings that are as bright as THX Bright room...but in Prof 2 to allow more fine adjustments. Again, does anyone have settings for Pro that are as bright as THX bright room that I can try?

And also, can a calibrator come to my house and calibrate my panel at the brightness of THX Bright mode? From Buzz's posts, it looks like it would take some special equipment and a little bit of extrapolation, but its seems possible. Is it possible and what calibrator can guarantee such a task? Do you think that THX Bright room settings are with Panel brightness High?

I think its going to be THX Brightroom settings during the day from now on. D*** you Panasonic for not making this panel brighter! I hate using the max settings just to get a picture I can appreciate in a dim to moderately bright room.
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post #10281 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb4 View Post

Does anyone know if the 65VT60 passes 5.1 audio through the optical out?

As far as I know it doesn't-- it's only for outputting 5.1 sources on the set itself (the tuner, streaming apps, etc).

It's been that way on every set I've owned, two of which were panasonics. I assumed this was the same but maybe someone else can weigh in definitively?

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #10282 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

So possibly where the sharpness would be with no sharpness control is where 50 is, with anything less being artificially soft,
anything above being artificially edged.
.


That is almost certainly correct, which would explain why Panasonic uses 50 as its default in all Picture modes.

And not to go too far down this particular rabbit hole, but this refusal to adjust the (Gasp!) Sharpness setting even though it may perceptibly improve the image is straight-up dogma. (And stating that the correct Sharpness setting for all Panasonics is 0, is not only dogmatic—it is also just plain incorrect!)
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post #10283 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb4 View Post

Does anyone know if the 65VT60 passes 5.1 audio through the optical out?
No. It only works for apps on the TV, like Netflix. The optical out and HDMI ARC only send 2 channels. I was asking about it a while back. It sucks.

Here is an article talking about TVs and the HDMI ARC:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57615451-221/20-tvs-tested-which-sets-can-pass-surround-sound-to-a-sound-bar/
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post #10284 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:13 PM
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Codeman00-- at the last Value Electronics shoot out the calibrators were able to get 35 foot lamberts out of the VT60, 30 out of the ZT60 and over 40 out of the Samsung F8500.

This is Zohn's comment after the Samsung took home the win from the panel for it's superior brightness while the Panasonic's won the vote from the assembled calibrators:

“But even their choice was only a slight preference. As DeWayne put it to me.... `To me and just for example, if the VT60 is a 10 the F8500 is a nine, as I don’t care about panel brightness above 30fL,’ ”

35ftL is plenty bright but only YOU can decide if it's bright enough. As an example: I only watch TV at night and control the light in my room so brightness isn't something I was concerned with. If I had to contend with a bright room I would not have bought the VT. I get why you want to make it work but I want to caution you that spending another 3-4 hundred dollars on a set you're not happy with right now isn't something I think even a pro calibrator here would advise you to do. I think you're forcing it and my recommendation remains to trade it in for something different.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

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post #10285 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Codeman00 View Post

Update on the panel brightness issue...which as much as I would like it to go away, its still an issue. I've been watching all of my content with CNETs beautiful settings and enjoying it...until today when I watched a college basketball game. Our home white uniforms didn't look white and I could barely make out faces in the crowd, etc. As I'm watching my game, my mind is thinking more about the low panel brightness than anything. (Note that there is a window in my man cave with sunshine coming through). Finally, I moved to THX bright and all of the concerns of darkness went away instantly. Now, my modified THX Bright room settings have been modified a bit...Contrast on 85, Color on -5 and Panel set to Warm 1 to combat the green/yellow look. Skin tones of players were a bit green...but I have nothing to combat that with in THX Bright Mode.

This really tells me that I need some settings that are as bright as THX Bright room...but in Prof 2 to allow more fine adjustments. Again, does anyone have settings for Pro that are as bright as THX bright room that I can try?

And also, can a calibrator come to my house and calibrate my panel at the brightness of THX Bright mode? From Buzz's posts, it looks like it would take some special equipment and a little bit of extrapolation, but its seems possible. Is it possible and what calibrator can guarantee such a task? Do you think that THX Bright room settings are with Panel brightness High?

I think its going to be THX Brightroom settings during the day from now on. D*** you Panasonic for not making this panel brighter! I hate using the max settings just to get a picture I can appreciate in a dim to moderately bright room.

Hard to say really. You might want to contact a calibrator about it. I know Chad B recently did a ZT60 with high panel brightness which gave near 50 ftL and turned out pretty decent as far as I know even if not as good as mid panel.

If you really need a lot more brightness, the F8500 would likely be a better option for you, but that display is a step under the VT for dark room viewing no matter what they tell in you the F8500 thread. lol I once had both sets in my living room, so I am just talking from experience with them.


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post #10286 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:31 PM
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As to changing Sharpness, whether it is 0 or 100, I can not see any difference on frozen picture of officials in sunshine for SD / Denver game discussing pass/fumble. When I earlier used WOW, I still couldn't see any picture difference no matter what number I set it to. Because I am using CNET settings, and they have 50, I am keeping mine at 50 (until otherwise proven). But from CNET, I lowered Contrast from 80 to 76, Brightness from 0 to +6, and from Warm2 to Warm1.
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post #10287 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:32 PM
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Somewhere in the Setup menu is an option to return the TV to factory defaults. Can't think of exactly where but it isn't the restore defaults in the picture modes of course. The setup menu is towards the bottom of the first main menu. Then when you go through the initial setup, you can choose Home instead.

Thanks for your help. Managed to return the unit to default and re selected home and problem is resolved.

Another issue that i encountered is looks like the TVs sold in Asia have the HDD recording feature disabled. Bought a WD My Book 2TB drive and the TV detects it but could not access Format/Recording function. Panasonic support not strong in this region.

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post #10288 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Hard to say really. You might want to contact a calibrator about it. I know Chad B recently did a ZT60 with high panel brightness which gave near 50 ftL and turned out pretty decent as far as I know even if not as good as mid panel.

If you really need a lot more brightness, the F8500 would likely be a better option for you, but that display is a step under the VT for dark room viewing no matter what they tell in you the F8500 thread. lol I once had both sets in my living room, so I am just talking from experience with them.

Most everything I've read days the VT60 can't comfortably output over 40ftL without serious detriment to other areas of the picture. At the Value Electronics Shootout the calibrators said the F8500 could have gone for more brightness but they felt it unnecessary. They kept the VT and ZT low to preserve greyscale and color tracking.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

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post #10289 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dfedders View Post

No. It only works for apps on the TV, like Netflix. The optical out and HDMI ARC only send 2 channels. I was asking about it a while back. It sucks.

Here is an article talking about TVs and the HDMI ARC:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57615451-221/20-tvs-tested-which-sets-can-pass-surround-sound-to-a-sound-bar/
is the P60VT60 that much more different from the one that rbl4(65vt60) is asking about? I'm sure that I have 5.1 running through my ARC HDMI. with my VT60.

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post #10290 of 16517 Old 01-12-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

is the P60VT60 that much more different from the one that rbl4(65vt60) is asking about? I'm sure that I have 5.1 running through my ARC HDMI. with my VT60.

ARC and optical out are two separate things.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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