Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 346 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-12-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You have many allies, all more or less equally uninformed.

The increase in additive white along black edges is very small in its early stages but it is there, and it starts at 1.

Here's your guru, you know, the guy who started the 2013 Panasonic Issues thread, and the 2012, and the -- I think it goes back to 2008 or so. D-Nice is one of the very few people who actually has a little Panasonic engineering insider information. Here are his settings for the 2013 ST60. He never completed his reserved posts for other models because he may finally have tired of all the speculative, non knowledgeable posts in his own thread...

So... a guy that I don't know recommends a sharpness setting of zero on a TV that I don't own?

Brilliant ****ing argument. I-- I just don't know what I was thinking. Please accept my apologies for being so uninformed.

I'm going to go set all my sets to zero now and right after I'm going to call Panasonic and tell them what a bunch of twats they are for including a sharpness control.

I'm going to go pass out now. Happy Birthday to me!! Thank go for spell check.
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Old 01-12-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dfedders View Post

No. It only works for apps on the TV, like Netflix. The optical out and HDMI ARC only send 2 channels. I was asking about it a while back. It sucks.

Here is an article talking about TVs and the HDMI ARC:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57615451-221/20-tvs-tested-which-sets-can-pass-surround-sound-to-a-sound-bar/

I'm really confused about this. I thought the whole point of ARC was not just to have one less cable, but to get around the 2.1 limitation of using the optical output. I still haven't hooked up my VT60, but I still have a Samsung UN60F7050 that's outputting the ARC signal to an HDMI switch. How is it that I'm getting 5.1 audio through my speakers? I'm using a coaxial input connected to an antenna, so could that be why? Depending on the channel I'm watching, it will either say Dolby Digital or Pro Logic on my receiver. When watching football earlier, I could hear the crowd behind me. According to the article above, that shouldn't be possible on a Samsung.
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Old 01-12-2014, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Codeman00 View Post

That's the only thing I can think of too is the overhang and some kind of a safety issue. Weight it weight...no matter how big the TV is or what type, 165 lbs is 165 lbs. You should be fine unless you have rowdy kids that like to run around the TV stand.

I agree. That's what I had originally thought when I was planning on buying either a 60" or 65", but the person I spoke to had me worried. We're way below the weight limit.
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Originally Posted by DLF54927 View Post

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'd rather be a smidge over spec in size than anywhere near spec in weight.

Plus, it seems their aren't any stands out there that my fiancé likes that are under the cost of a 60VT.

For the time being, this should work fine.

Hopefully.

Since we're both using a center channel on the top shelf, that makes it even more top heavy, because the TV has to be higher. My CC is 8" high and there's about a 2" gap on top of that. I will say this is definitely the sturdiest floating pedestal stand I've seen with what seems like the widest base. I've seen more narrow stands that still have the 60" limit, so maybe 65" isn't so bad after all. If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know how it works out for you.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:10 AM
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So... a guy that I don't know recommends a sharpness setting of zero on a TV that I don't own?

Brilliant ****ing argument. I-- I just don't know what I was thinking. Please accept my apologies for being so uninformed.

I'm going to go set all my sets to zero now and right after I'm going to call Panasonic and tell them what a bunch of twats they are for including a sharpness control.

I'm going to go pass out now. Happy Birthday to me!! Thank go for spell check.
You are just the one the sharpness control, which had a purpose with CRT direct view and projection systems, has been preserved for. All it can possibly add to a flat panel TV is distortion A flat panel is in focus be definition. By using the "sharpness" control you're just messing with the edges of images on your screen.

Many times zero means that sharpness is turned off. Other times there will be a different setting to turn "sharpness" off.
.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPowers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfedders View Post

No. It only works for apps on the TV, like Netflix. The optical out and HDMI ARC only send 2 channels. I was asking about it a while back. It sucks.

Here is an article talking about TVs and the HDMI ARC:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57615451-221/20-tvs-tested-which-sets-can-pass-surround-sound-to-a-sound-bar/

I'm really confused about this. I thought the whole point of ARC was not just to have one less cable, but to get around the 2.1 limitation of using the optical output. I still haven't hooked up my VT60, but I still have a Samsung UN60F7050 that's outputting the ARC signal to an HDMI switch. How is it that I'm getting 5.1 audio through my speakers? I'm using a coaxial input connected to an antenna, so could that be why? Depending on the channel I'm watching, it will either say Dolby Digital or Pro Logic on my receiver. When watching football earlier, I could hear the crowd behind me. According to the article above, that shouldn't be possible on a Samsung.
The 2.0 limitation is a copyright issue and no manufacture is allowed to design an escape hatch.

ARC will pass surround sound for all internal sources and built in applications. It will not pass surround sound from external sources connected with HDMI or other inputs.

Your coax input from your antenna is internal to your TV because the signal is going through the TV's tuner.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:29 AM
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Well, this doesn't look like terrible greyscale and color tracking to me in high panel.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1474480/official-zt60-owners-thread/5640#post_24129650

You are right that is pretty darn good, oops there goes alot of the F8500 advantage smile.gif
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Old 01-13-2014, 05:19 AM
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Some classic stuff. ;-)


Now you all have got me interested but I doubt that I have the time to wade through a gabillion posts. If anyone feels that it would entertain me, please PM me with some hints to filter the posts. smile.gif

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DavidHir knows who I'm talking about and why. He's not on this thread and I won't be revealing his name. If you'd seen the plethora of "if I can't see it" posts you'd understand why many eyes were rolling....

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Old 01-13-2014, 05:39 AM
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Old 01-13-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JPowers View Post

I'm really confused about this. I thought the whole point of ARC was not just to have one less cable, but to get around the 2.1 limitation of using the optical output. I still haven't hooked up my VT60, but I still have a Samsung UN60F7050 that's outputting the ARC signal to an HDMI switch. How is it that I'm getting 5.1 audio through my speakers? I'm using a coaxial input connected to an antenna, so could that be why? Depending on the channel I'm watching, it will either say Dolby Digital or Pro Logic on my receiver. When watching football earlier, I could hear the crowd behind me. According to the article above, that shouldn't be possible on a Samsung.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if your receiver is connected to the source, i.e. cablebox or blu-ray, the receiver is processing audio (DD or DTS) from the source and passing the video to the display. I believe the only way the ARC signal goes from the display to the receiver is if you have the display's source being an external HDTV antenna where the display does the signal processing and sends the audio to the receiver.

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Old 01-13-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

You are just the one the sharpness control, which had a purpose with CRT direct view and projection systems, has been preserved for. All it can possibly add to a flat panel TV is distortion A flat panel is in focus be definition. By using the "sharpness" control you're just messing with the edges of images on your screen.

Many times zero means that sharpness is turned off. Other times there will be a different setting to turn "sharpness" off.
.

...

Exploding-head.gif
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

Eric. were able to accurately interpret this section of the findings:

W/B Detail Adjust. (2D)
Mid High
Red –7 10
Green –1 4
Blue 14 –3

W/B Detail Adjust. (32D)
Mid High
Red –15 11
Green 0 0
Blue –6 –1

Is that mid panel brightness vs High and are the top RGB settings the high ones and the bottom ones the lows for the two panel levels?

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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

They can mean only one thing:

W/B Detail Adjust. (2D)
W/B High R +10
W/B High G +4
W/B High B -3
W/B Low -7
W/B Low -1
W/B Low +14


Larry
So I have been running Sound and Visions calibration settings the last few days and have been extremely happy with them. Colors are very saturated, skin tones look really good and no issues with brightness levels. There was a slight red push I was seeing but bringing the W/B High R of +10 to a +5 looked to fix that right up.
I think this is the best I have seen the TV so far.

If anyone one with equipment can run some tests on these settings that would be great. Pretty curious how it stacks up to other settings that were tested by you guys.
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:30 AM
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On Saturday, I exchanged a 55VT60 (June 2013 build) for a 60VT60 (October 2013 build) and I noticed that the 60VT60 had a much more colorful, clearer and brighter picture and I'm curious why? Curious whether it has to do with components, newer build, larger screen. etc.

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Old 01-13-2014, 07:37 AM
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Many times zero means that sharpness is turned off. Other times there will be a different setting to turn "sharpness" off.
.

The default setting?

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Old 01-13-2014, 08:24 AM
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So I have been running Sound and Visions calibration settings the last few days and have been extremely happy with them. Colors are very saturated, skin tones look really good and no issues with brightness levels. There was a slight red push I was seeing but bringing the W/B High R of +10 to a +5 looked to fix that right up.
I think this is the best I have seen the TV so far.

If anyone one with equipment can run some tests on these settings that would be great. Pretty curious how it stacks up to other settings that were tested by you guys.

I've tried the S&V, Cnet and D-Nice settings and they all have their strengths.. D-Nice's Day settings are very good, even without the specific slide prep, and the basic values can be tweaked to suit your own taste. His Night settings are a bit too sedate for me. The Cnet settings are also very good and require very little tweaking. Same with the S&V settings. The nice thing about the VT60 is that the two Professional modes allow you to try multiple Video sets and switch between them. Right now D-Nice Day is on Pro 1, S&V on Pro 2 and Cnet on Cinema so they can be compared instantly. One change that I did make was to take the Gamma from 2.4 to 2.2. On my ST30, I went with 2.0 and it opened up the overall brightness. On the VT60, I've found that Gamma 2.2 pretty much does the same thing (no brickbats please. It's just a personal preference). I also used High panel brightness on the ST30 and that increased the overall "pop". Initially I found that the VT60's High PB almost looked baked to me but Chad B's using it on some ZT60s and getting pretty good results has intrigued me. I've played around with High briefly and found that decreasing contrast and playing with brightness can yield a pretty lively image. One question that I have is whether using the High PB can result in any negative issues for the panel such as increased IR, color blobs, yellowing etc. My ST30 had so much vague shadowy crud on the screen that I didn't care but I wouldn't want to put the VT60s incredible black levels or screen uniformity at risk.
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:36 AM
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I've tried the S&V, Cnet and D-Nice settings and they all have their strengths.. D-Nice's Day settings are very good, even without the specific slide prep, and the basic values can be tweaked to suit your own taste. His Night settings are a bit too sedate for me. The Cnet settings are also very good and require very little tweaking. Same with the S&V settings. The nice thing about the VT60 is that the two Professional modes allow you to try multiple Video sets and switch between them. Right now D-Nice Day is on Pro 1, S&V on Pro 2 and Cnet on Cinema so they can be compared instantly. One change that I did make was to take the Gamma from 2.4 to 2.2. On my ST30, I went with 2.0 and it opened up the overall brightness. On the VT60, I've found that Gamma 2.2 pretty much does the same thing (no brickbats please. It's just a personal preference). I also used High panel brightness on the ST30 and that increased the overall "pop". Initially I found that the VT60's High PB almost looked baked to me but Chad B's using it on some ZT60s and getting pretty good results has intrigued me. I've played around with High briefly and found that decreasing contrast and playing with brightness can yield a pretty lively image. One question that I have is whether using the High PB can result in any negative issues for the panel such as increased IR, color blobs, yellowing etc. My ST30 had so much vague shadowy crud on the screen that I didn't care but I wouldn't want to put the VT60s incredible black levels or screen uniformity at risk.
I do also have Cnet's setting plugged in and they look pretty decent. I do find that S&V has more color saturation and pop compared to Cnet. That can be because Cnet uses Gamma of 2.2 which tend to brighten a picture up but also seems to wash out the colors a little. I also tried Dnice's nightime setting and did not like it at all. It seemed dark and drabby and did not seem to have the pop as other settings have had. Much prefer THX Cinema over Dnice's night setting. I haven't tried his daytime settings as brightness has nit been issue with me but maybe I will punch them in just to have a look at it.

As far as what cause IR and what doesn't. I do not believe anyone really knows. At one point I had my contrast on 50 and I got IR quicker and more noticable then when I had it on 60 running the same thing. So who the heck knows. lol...I think the best way to see how it reacts is run something with your hight settings for a half hour or so that has some sort of static logo. See how it does. Then the next day run the same thing at lower settings and see how it does. I think people have just come to the assumption that contrast and brightness give you IR but I am not so sure if this has actually been proven. Even the THX daytime setting runs contrast at 100. Are people just going to get instant IR and Burn-in if they run a setting that was programmed by THX?
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:43 AM
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I've tried the S&V, Cnet and D-Nice settings and they all have their strengths.. D-Nice's Day settings are very good, even without the specific slide prep, and the basic values can be tweaked to suit your own taste. His Night settings are a bit too sedate for me. The Cnet settings are also very good and require very little tweaking. Same with the S&V settings. The nice thing about the VT60 is that the two Professional modes allow you to try multiple Video sets and switch between them. Right now D-Nice Day is on Pro 1, S&V on Pro 2 and Cnet on Cinema so they can be compared instantly. One change that I did make was to take the Gamma from 2.4 to 2.2. On my ST30, I went with 2.0 and it opened up the overall brightness. On the VT60, I've found that Gamma 2.2 pretty much does the same thing (no brickbats please. It's just a personal preference). I also used High panel brightness on the ST30 and that increased the overall "pop". Initially I found that the VT60's High PB almost looked baked to me but Chad B's using it on some ZT60s and getting pretty good results has intrigued me. I've played around with High briefly and found that decreasing contrast and playing with brightness can yield a pretty lively image. One question that I have is whether using the High PB can result in any negative issues for the panel such as increased IR, color blobs, yellowing etc. My ST30 had so much vague shadowy crud on the screen that I didn't care but I wouldn't want to put the VT60s incredible black levels or screen uniformity at risk.

Can you provide a link to D-Nice's Day settings? Thank you.

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Old 01-13-2014, 10:08 AM
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I posted the following over in the Darblet forum. Since I see many here use that piece of equipment I would appreciate your feedback. Sorry for the OT.


<<" Information please before purchasing the Darblet 5000; I watch 95% ripped DVD's, ripped BluRay's and TV torrents. No cable/FIOS/Sat

List of equipment:
Panny 65VT60
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HTPC (XBMC) HDMI out

Will I see any benefit from this unit? HTPC people please chime in. " >>

Thanks.

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Old 01-13-2014, 10:19 AM
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Can you provide a link to D-Nice's Day settings? Thank you.



I'd help you out, Scott. I know where they are, all the 2013 upper echelons on one page. But, every one of them, Day mode, Night mode, and 3d mode all have Sharpness set at zero so obviously he wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about. So sorry.


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The correct Panasonic Sharpness setting is 0. Increasing Sharpness sharpens nothing. It adds white alongside black and it covers up the actual intended content and degrades picture quality. If you want to alleviate the soft look, get a Darblet.

Baloney.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:31 AM
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Can you provide a link to D-Nice's Day settings? Thank you.
Come on Buzzard, play nice. I actually think there is more to this topic then saying it is zero or nothing. Sound & Vision, Cnet and Plasma buying guide all have the sharpness raised above zero on the VT60. Chad B also ran sharpness patterns with someone's calibration here and saw benefits at certain times with raised sharpness. All these cats can't be wrong, can they?


http://www.calibrationforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Can you provide a link to D-Nice's Day settings? Thank you.
Come on Buzzard, play nice. I actually think there is more to this topic then saying it is zero or nothing. Sound & Vision, Cnet and Plasma buying guide all have the sharpness raised above zero on the VT60. Chad B also ran sharpness patterns with someone's calibration here and saw benefits at certain times with raised sharpness. All these cats can't be wrong, can they?


http://www.calibrationforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939

Yes it's possible. I'm reasonably sure that D-Nice has direct links to Panasonic engineering.

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:01 AM
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Come on Buzzard, play nice. I actually think there is more to this topic then saying it is zero or nothing. Sound & Vision, Cnet and Plasma buying guide all have the sharpness raised above zero on the VT60. Chad B also ran sharpness patterns with someone's calibration here and saw benefits at certain times with raised sharpness. All these cats can't be wrong, can they?


http://www.calibrationforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939
Sharpness really 0-100....people watched the Shootout right? well with all the people of import ants there.Far as reps engineers and 3 top calibrators so the feedback to samsung,panny,lg etc..And i personally had 2 of the 3 calibrators like Kevin,D-nice here to do my vt50 and vt60 both put Sharpness at 0 So there is a reason for that..Now As a consumer with no cal experiance to your eye if it works go for it change it ..my 2 cents smile.gif

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:06 AM
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I have a fairly simple question about brightness. When viewing the "shootout" video from VE, the calibrators said that they could only get the VT to produce 35FL and the ZT to produce 30FL after calibration while all the other displays hit 40FL without a problem. Then I see a review in the link below that states the max brightness after calibration was 43.7FL. A difference of almost 10FL is pretty large and would be noticeable for daytime viewing.

Why is one calibrator able to get more FL out of the set when compared to others? In both the shootout video and in the review below, it is stated that both sets used mid panel brightness. In the review below, it states that pro 1 "ISF day" was used but I am unsure of what was used in the shootout video.

Does custom, pro 1 "isf day", and pro 2" isf night" offer varying levels of brightness while still achieving the exact same accuracy and black levels? Or does pro 1 "isf day" trade off some accuracy and higher black levels for more light out?



http://www.avsforum.com/products/panasonic-tc-p60vt60-60-inch-3d-smart-plasma-hdtv/reviews/4061

Panasonic TC-P60VT60 ISF Day.pdf Before max fL: 28.4 / After max fL: 43.7
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:12 AM
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It depends on the size of the windows used during the calibration, the shootout window size is larger and engages ABL sooner which restricts the light output

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:20 AM
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It depends on the size of the windows used during the calibration, the shootout window size is larger and engages ABL sooner which restricts the light output


How do we know which is the truly accurate reading then "35 vs 43?" It seems that there should be a standard in place so that reviews don't vary wildly in measurements.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by B Feelgood View Post

I have a fairly simple question about brightness. When viewing the "shootout" video from VE, the calibrators said that they could only get the VT to produce 35FL and the ZT to produce 30FL after calibration while all the other displays hit 40FL without a problem. Then I see a review in the link below that states the max brightness after calibration was 43.7FL. A difference of almost 10FL is pretty large and would be noticeable for daytime viewing.

Why is one calibrator able to get more FL out of the set when compared to others? In both the shootout video and in the review below, it is stated that both sets used mid panel brightness. In the review below, it states that pro 1 "ISF day" was used but I am unsure of what was used in the shootout video.

Does custom, pro 1 "isf day", and pro 2" isf night" offer varying levels of brightness while still achieving the exact same accuracy and black levels? Or does pro 1 "isf day" trade off some accuracy and higher black levels for more light out?



http://www.avsforum.com/products/panasonic-tc-p60vt60-60-inch-3d-smart-plasma-hdtv/reviews/4061

Panasonic TC-P60VT60 ISF Day.pdf Before max fL: 28.4 / After max fL: 43.7

I would bet they used one of the Pro modes. Pro 1 and Pro 2 (and custom) just allow you the ability to make more adjustments without certain controls or features being locked/unavailable. Example is THX modes in which the pixel orbiter is off (and grayed out). Light output is higher for both models post Shootout without sacrificing image quality - as someone (DavidHir I believe) pointed out earlier calibrators have had 9 months to learn more about the displays and tweak accordingly. Chad's recent post about the ZT is a great example of this.

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:26 AM
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How do we know which is the truly accurate reading then "35 vs 43?" It seems that there should be a standard in place so that reviews don't vary wildly in measurements.

There really is no apples to apples comparison unless you know the size of the windows used during the calibration. Calibrators disagree on the correct best window size and apl vs standard windows. Welcome to the wonderful world plasma calibration my friend smile.gif

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

It depends on the size of the windows used during the calibration, the shootout window size is larger and engages ABL sooner which restricts the light output


How do we know which is the truly accurate reading then "35 vs 43?" It seems that there should be a standard in place so that reviews don't vary wildly in measurements.

They may both be accurate. Put up a 20% (size) window pattern and 100% white luminance might measure 40 FtL. Change the pattern to 100% (field pattern - the entire screen) and the reading might be 18 FtL. It's due to plasma Automatic Brightness Limitation and is a reason why numbers and settings can vary so widely with this technology.

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

I would bet they used one of the Pro modes. Pro 1 and Pro 2 (and custom) just allow you the ability to make more adjustments without certain controls or features being locked/unavailable. Example is THX modes in which the pixel orbiter is off (and grayed out). Light output is higher for both models post Shootout without sacrificing image quality - as someone (DavidHir I believe) pointed out earlier calibrators have had 9 months to learn more about the displays and tweak accordingly. Chad's recent post about the ZT is a great example of this.

There really is no magic involved it is the window size being used for the calibration, Chad uses 5% APL windows which result in higher readings. The shootout calibrations were done with 10% to 12% standard windows hence the difference in figures.

BTW congrats on the win yesterday did not see the game but the Hawkeyes got it done in a very tough place to win smile.gif

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by B Feelgood View Post

How do we know which is the truly accurate reading then "35 vs 43?" It seems that there should be a standard in place so that reviews don't vary wildly in measurements.

There really is no apples to apples comparison unless you know the size of the windows used during the calibration. Calibrators disagree on the correct best window size and apl vs standard windows. Welcome to the wonderful world plasma calibration my friend smile.gif

Absolutely. It's for the same reasoning that all "dynamic" activities are turned off on flat panels and dynamic irises are locked while calibrating projectors. smile.gif

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

They may both be accurate. Put up a 20% (size) window pattern and 100% white luminance might measure 40 FtL. Change the pattern to 100% (filed pattern - the entire screen) and the reading might be 18 FtL. It's due to plasma Automatic Brightness Limitation and is a reason why numbers and settings can vary so widely with this technology.
I know nothing about this stuff so just asking but wouldn't it make the most sense to get the brightest calibration on a full white screen you can and anything less should also exceed at brightness levels then? Unless running a full white screen is impossible to calibrate because of ABL.
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