Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 491 - AVS Forum
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post #14701 of 14725 Old 07-08-2014, 02:41 PM
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Pfftt, the tube amp's power requirements will likely exceed the cost of a newer model AVR. That and the money spend on various adapters. Along the way with something new like a Denon E-300 you also get built-in streaming features, Airplay, network remote control and the like.

As for best sound, a new AVR with a calibration mic works wonders. Effects included in the source media (DVDs, streamed, etc) makes a much better impression when the gear's able to calibrate itself for the room. Granted, only two speakers doesn't give it much to work with. Even the addition of a simple center channel would help quite a lot.
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post #14702 of 14725 Old 07-08-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

As for best sound, a new AVR with a calibration mic works wonders. Effects included in the source media (DVDs, streamed, etc) makes a much better impression when the gear's able to calibrate itself for the room. Granted, only two speakers doesn't give it much to work with. Even the addition of a simple center channel would help quite a lot.
My calibration mic sat unused for far too long. I was truly impressed with the difference it made on my setup. I have some odd room acoustics and you could see the resulting settings trying to optimize around it.

Display:    Panasonic 65" VT60

AVR:        Marantz 6005

Speakers: Kef Q towers/rears Kef Reference center

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post #14703 of 14725 Old 07-08-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypermole View Post
Thank you very much for the reply.


To answer your question, Yes. I do not have that much to spend. I also only have two speakers for a reason. They reproduce the best sound I've ever heard. I am thinking about picking up a used tube amp to allow the full Signe wave audio to enhance the analog sound. I have been offered a few for free.


Thanks Again
Unfortunately, digital to analog conversion isn't as simple as buying a converter plug. Digital to analog chips come in all flavors of price and quality which is why you'll see oppo sell bluray players for upwards of $1k as they have sophisticated, esoteric DA chips. To put it simply: DA conversion is the area of your signal path which has the greatest 'opportunity' for loss in fidelity. The large range of quality is why you can find outboard DA audio converters anywhere from $17 to $300 or more. If you just want something simple: Monoprice sells a model for around 25 bucks: it will probably sound as good (or bad) as the DAs in your average TV or value branded receiver.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=68 84&seq=1&format=2
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post #14704 of 14725 Old 07-08-2014, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Unfortunately, digital to analog conversion isn't as simple as buying a converter plug. Digital to analog chips come in all flavors of price and quality which is why you'll see oppo sell bluray players for upwards of $1k as they have sophisticated, esoteric DA chips. To put it simply: DA conversion is the area of your signal path which has the greatest 'opportunity' for loss in fidelity. The large range of quality is why you can find outboard DA audio converters anywhere from $17 to $300 or more. If you just want something simple: Monoprice sells a model for around 25 bucks: it will probably sound as good (or bad) as the DAs in your average TV or value branded receiver.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...seq=1&format=2
Thanks


I understand there are many different opinions but for my needs the cost and surround or 3D just is not for me. I also have a few other awesome amps and speakers but for now I just want to connect the Plasma to my Amp for occasional use. I don't care for surround sound and until I get moved, less is better, I have used a RCA to 3.5mm cable in the past and that worked fine. Do any of the RCA connectors on this TV output sound? Maybe a HDMI to RCA?


Someday I'd like to go wireless but for now, I have other items on my radar. Like a house and new car.


I may have away to get this done without buying anything which would be great.


Thanks Again
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post #14705 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypermole View Post
Thanks


I understand there are many different opinions but for my needs the cost and surround or 3D just is not for me. I also have a few other awesome amps and speakers but for now I just want to connect the Plasma to my Amp for occasional use. I don't care for surround sound and until I get moved, less is better, I have used a RCA to 3.5mm cable in the past and that worked fine. Do any of the RCA connectors on this TV output sound? Maybe a HDMI to RCA?


Someday I'd like to go wireless but for now, I have other items on my radar. Like a house and new car.


I may have away to get this done without buying anything which would be great.


Thanks Again
You quoted my post but I'm not sure if you understood. You can't simply adapt a digital connection (toslink, hdmi, etc) to an analog connection (RCA, mini plug). You need something that will 'unpack' the digital signal for you. I linked you to an affordable DA box from Monoprice-- as your VT has no analog outputs a product like this is your only solution.
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post #14706 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rickydenim View Post
I'll be looking for a pro-calibrator in Australia to do my VT60 in a month or so.
I'll be looking for someone in the next few months also, would appreciate it if you could let us know if you find someone good!
I have heard some good things about Avical from Whirlpool, but I haven't looked into them myself yet.
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post #14707 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 09:25 AM
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Guys, there's a display model of 55" VT60 in London Drugs being offered to me for only $1399 + tax. Salesman says it still includes 1-year warranty and still has everything with the box.

Do you think it would be a good buy?

I am leaning towards replacing my two year old 50" LG plasma so i'm on the market for a new (better) plasma TV.
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post #14708 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 09:34 AM
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That is a bargain plain and simple, jump in as soon as you can IMHO.. I mean don't you guys pay alot more for tellies over there?
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post #14709 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by greatauror28 View Post
Guys, there's a display model of 55" VT60 in London Drugs being offered to me for only $1399 + tax. Salesman says it still includes 1-year warranty and still has everything with the box.

Do you think it would be a good buy?

I am leaning towards replacing my two year old 50" LG plasma so i'm on the market for a new (better) plasma TV.

I'd think that's a heck of a good deal for US$, Canada even better. It would be a good idea to check for burn in with some colored slides on a USB stick or the screen wipe feature. Maybe ask that if you aren't satisfied you can return it.
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post #14710 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
That is a bargain plain and simple, jump in as soon as you can IMHO.. I mean don't you guys pay alot more for tellies over there?
Yes, we do pay more because of the weaker CAD vs USD. I'm still gathering funds for now. Might buy it in the next couple weeks.

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Originally Posted by whipit View Post
I'd think that's a heck of a good deal for US$, Canada even better. It would be a good idea to check for burn in with some colored slides on a USB stick or the screen wipe feature. Maybe ask that if you aren't satisfied you can return it.
That's what I thought too!

Thanks for the suggestion of having colored slides off a usb drive - that will show if there's any burn in or discoloration from the TV. Thanks!
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post #14711 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
You quoted my post but I'm not sure if you understood. You can't simply adapt a digital connection (toslink, hdmi, etc) to an analog connection (RCA, mini plug). You need something that will 'unpack' the digital signal for you. I linked you to an affordable DA box from Monoprice-- as your VT has no analog outputs a product like this is your only solution.


Hello,


Yes I did quote your post and understand what you are telling me. I am still looking for a solution to my issue (I have many). Today I hooked up my Toshiba DVD Video & VCR Recorder (SD-V295KU) with the RCA inputs and I am able to watch VCR & DVD'S thru the TV. It also has a digital output on the back of it and will connect to my amp and play audio with the RCA outputs on it from the VCR/DVD/CD different formats. Maybe I can use it or my router (Ethernet, Wireless) or laptop (HDMI, Bluetooth and Wireless) to have a audio output to my AMP. So now I am totally confused myself .


Is anyone using headphones with this TV?
If so how are they hooking them up?


Thank You For Your Reply,
David
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post #14712 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypermole View Post
Hello,


Yes I did quote your post and understand what you are telling me. I am still looking for a solution to my issue (I have many). Today I hooked up my Toshiba DVD Video & VCR Recorder (SD-V295KU) with the RCA inputs and I am able to watch VCR & DVD'S thru the TV. It also has a digital output on the back of it and will connect to my amp and play audio with the RCA outputs on it from the VCR/DVD/CD different formats. Maybe I can use it or my router (Ethernet, Wireless) or laptop (HDMI, Bluetooth and Wireless) to have a audio output to my AMP. So now I am totally confused myself .


Is anyone using headphones with this TV?
If so how are they hooking them up?


Thank You For Your Reply,
David

I use Bluetooth headphones works great
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post #14713 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Any of these small 10 point calibration measurement test mean very little, and that includes my 10 point reports. I for one will now only show comprehensive reports, in hopes others will also.

To see what is really going on with a calibration you need at-least about a 500 point check. I don't know why so many folks including pro calibrators show such a very limited report.
imo there are only two excuses for such limited reports.
1. The guy that is running the report has very limited experience and or very limited software.
2. The guy is just afraid that a comprehensive report is just going to show a fair to poor calibration, not a good calibration as the very limited report is showing.

Below is a link to my last Calibration measurement report I did on my VT60. I used a Klein K10-A as my active meter and I profiled it with my Jeti 1211, using Klein's ChromaSurf software to make sure there was next to no error in the profile and inputted that profile into the K10's memory. I used a updated Lumagen 2041 as the reference pattern source for the profile.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/download....42864222167199
Once downloaded open file with your browser (Internet exporter, Google, ect.)

The report shows a average dE 2000 of 0.35 with a highest dE of 1.59
Page down and you will see exactly what the colors that where measured. You will also see in the charts many points in-between the 10 points (10, 20, 30, ect) that most reports only show.
In other words a report like this will show what is really going on with are VT60. And shows how good are VT60 can be calibrated.

ss
I don't doubt that a 500 point calibration is more accurate, but while it's measurably better, is it actually noticable? I have seen it stated multiple times that a dE of less than 3 is undetectable to the human eye.

And while I admit I'd probable do it if I had all the equipment, as a diy-er, I can't afford all that stuff.

An interesting experiment for those with the time and equipment. Do a meticulous calibration using only the consumer controls and no external lut box. Then test the 500 points or however many you want and see how many of them are more than +3 dE.

I don't think either of the reasons you suspect calibrators don't give a more comprehensive reports are fair to the GOOD calibrators out there who use the usual software packages.
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post #14714 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dpjb View Post
I don't doubt that a 500 point calibration is more accurate, but while it's measurably better, is it actually noticable? I have seen it stated multiple times that a dE of less than 3 is undetectable to the human eye.

And while I admit I'd probable do it if I had all the equipment, as a diy-er, I can't afford all that stuff.

An interesting experiment for those with the time and equipment. Do a meticulous calibration using only the consumer controls and no external lut box. Then test the 500 points or however many you want and see how many of them are more than +3 dE.

I don't think either of the reasons you suspect calibrators don't give a more comprehensive reports are fair to the GOOD calibrators out there who use the usual software packages.
Buzz who is a professional calibrator who does LUT has stated several times it is NOT necessary for the VT60.

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post #14715 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dpjb View Post
I don't doubt that a 500 point calibration is more accurate, but while it's measurably better, is it actually noticable? I have seen it stated multiple times that a dE of less than 3 is undetectable to the human eye.

And while I admit I'd probable do it if I had all the equipment, as a diy-er, I can't afford all that stuff.

An interesting experiment for those with the time and equipment. Do a meticulous calibration using only the consumer controls and no external lut box. Then test the 500 points or however many you want and see how many of them are more than +3 dE.

I don't think either of the reasons you suspect calibrators don't give a more comprehensive reports are fair to the GOOD calibrators out there who use the usual software packages.
+1.
I think many people just enjoy the calibrating their TVs. I get that. But for me personally it's not worth dropping more than the price of CalMAN and my i1D3 just to get a measurably, but imperceptibly, more accurate picture. If calibration is a hobby you enjoy, more power to ya, but I just want to get an accurate picture at a reasonable price. My hardware/software combination is good enough for my needs.
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post #14716 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dpjb View Post
I don't doubt that a 500 point calibration is more accurate, but while it's measurably better, is it actually noticable? I have seen it stated multiple times that a dE of less than 3 is undetectable to the human eye.

And while I admit I'd probable do it if I had all the equipment, as a diy-er, I can't afford all that stuff.

An interesting experiment for those with the time and equipment. Do a meticulous calibration using only the consumer controls and no external lut box. Then test the 500 points or however many you want and see how many of them are more than +3 dE.

I don't think either of the reasons you suspect calibrators don't give a more comprehensive reports are fair to the GOOD calibrators out there who use the usual software packages.
I guess I didn't make it clear that what I show in that download/link was just a measurement report that I used 500 color points for. The actual Calibration was made up of 9405 color points that where measured to create the profile of my VT60.

There is to much trust placed in dE's. Look at the last link in my sig, that is a normal 10 point grayscale and 6 point CMS (Gamut) calibration I made. As good as that report looks, one would think that there is no way of improving on a calibration for that display. At-least that is what I thought, so when I learned about this new cutting edge type of calibration I decided to try it out and see what it was all about. I made a very small LUT of about 125 points using Calman and my Lumagen Mini as the processor. After viewing some source video I was hooked, that was about one year ago. Over the last year I kept refining my shills for 3DLUT calibration, to the point that I am at now.
And yes there is no question that the type of 3DLUT calibration I can do now will be visually better than any normal calibration for my VT60.

Fair enough, here is a link to a report on the Sony 950 ($8000 TV state of the art 4K) done by a very good pro calibrator. This chart is made up of DeltaE (dE that is what you are referencing ) 2000
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...7&d=1403903501
Note the red 75/100 error of well over dE4. However the average dE is 1.05. Also were the color points (round) are to the reference square points.

Now compare my 3DLUT calibration chart using 500 points to the above linked chart using 12 points. As you can see just using 12 points to check the dE there already is Red showing a dE of well over 4, I wounder what that calibration would look like if you used a 500 or larger color point check to check the dE's.

Below is a normal type of report I ran using just 18 points on the same kind of chart.

Also understand there are many more factors that can hurt or help make a good calibrationt. In the case of the above linked chart he uses a Jeti 1211 to profile his D3, the Jeti if used correctly is one of the most accurate spectro meters there are.

ss
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post #14717 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
+1.
I think many people just enjoy the calibrating their TVs. I get that. But for me personally it's not worth dropping more than the price of CalMAN and my i1D3 just to get a measurably, but imperceptibly, more accurate picture. If calibration is a hobby you enjoy, more power to ya, but I just want to get an accurate picture at a reasonable price. My hardware/software combination is good enough for my needs.
Yes I am sure you are happy, my only point is that your PQ can be improved..

btw, the software I use for my 3DLUT calibration is Free. ArgyIICMS
Matter of fact if you don't want the expense of a external processor (eecolor $700 I use it), with the tools that are supported by ArgyII, you can setup your PC as a HTPC at no cost to you. Therefore not having to buy a external processor to use the 3DLUT's .
Also if you use madVR (Free) as I do for my pattern generator outputting from my PC there is no need for a external pattern generator or disc. Its all automatic controlled by ArgyII.

ss
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post #14718 of 14725 Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Yes I am sure you are happy, my only point is that your PQ can be improved..

btw, the software I use for my 3DLUT calibration is Free. ArgyIICMS
Matter of fact if you don't want the expense of a external processor (eecolor $700 I use it), with the tools that are supported by ArgyII, you can setup your PC as a HTPC at no cost to you. Therefore not having to buy a external processor to use the 3DLUT's .
Also if you use madVR (Free) as I do for my pattern generator outputting from my PC there is no need for a external pattern generator or disc. Its all automatic controlled by ArgyII.

ss
Thanks for the heads-up, but the hassle of setting up an HTPC for a minute (to me, perhaps even undetectable) increase in picture quality isn't worth it. I get very little joy out of calibrating my displays, so doing it as simply as possible while producing good (even reference) results is my goal.
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post #14719 of 14725 Old Today, 02:48 AM
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Here we go again A 3d lut is not required and there are tons of people that are satisfied with their traditional calibrations,
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post #14720 of 14725 Old Today, 04:37 AM
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Dah, of course a 3DLUT is not required. It simply is food for thought. And quite frankly if you don't view HQ, high bit rate video, I would not suggest a high quality large 3DLUT calibration.

Most folks think that a calibration is just a rip off or unnecessary, so are they wrong.?

There seems to be a miss conception about DeltaE's, DeltaE's are not exact. There are just to many variables involved in a calibration.

Understanding that there are over a million colors that make up the colors that we see on are VT60's, can you say that a small sampling of 6 or 12 color points can give anybody a fair understanding to how those colors are displayed or how good there calibration is.?

I have given many examples of how a small sampling of color points is not reliable. But you or the few that have given opinions have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

As far as calibration software goes, there is np in adding much larger sampling reports to LS,CM or ArgyII. Those three I know for sure because I use all three of them, probably the same would go for CP and other calibration software.

ss
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post #14721 of 14725 Old Today, 05:25 AM
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So for those using madVR how does 60hz with smooth motion compare to 96hz on the VT60?
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post #14722 of 14725 Old Today, 01:08 PM
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So buzz is wrong ? Sorry but I trust his advice . Of course some are THE authority. It's a personal choice in the end not some cult. I respect personal choice some do not.
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post #14723 of 14725 Old Today, 01:57 PM
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the level of continued ignorance can be really entertaining... ;-)))) hahahaaaaaa

do we need a 3D LUT ? No.
do we need a 6pt cal ? No.

but the best possible calibration is a 3D LUT and there are VISIBLE differences compared to a 6pt cal ON THE VT60, ergo improvements in IQ........ FYI: IMAGE QUALITY

and no, u can see < dE 3 in some color regions, also been stated and visually demonstrated a million times...

whether one spends (or can afford to spend) the extra money on 3D LUT equipment, or on a cal sw, or on a spectro, or on a meter in general that is whole different different story and has nothing to with what the best calibration is... the "jealousy" factor in the typical posts "yeah, I can't afford it and it doesn't really do anything anyways although I've never tested it" is very, very scientific and really helpful to other people coming here looking for OPTIONS... if and when they jump into 3D LUTs is up to them...

and another thing that has been stated now a gazillion times and one thing SillySally mentioned in his last posts: you can only know what you validate, ergo the information peeps in here argue with their 6pt cals comes from verifying at best 100 points out of a 16.7 million points color gamut... some of the posts here include 10pt validation....

the minimum to run is 1000 and while that is 10 times more information, it is still only a start... and once u run a 1000 pt validation patch set u will now see all the points dE > 3.... just image u'd validate the whole gamut.... OH BOY !

besides the much higher accuracy due to the sheer amount of correction points, a 3D LUT can fix/improve complex greyscale issues, gamma issues, specific color regions etc etc etc..... FYI: skin tones, blue skies etc...

although I'm not too much of a fan of HTPC (on a budget it's a great solution), the whole Argyll madVR combo (once u get it working, which can be annoying and very time consuming) is a free option to check out/experience 3D LUTs... and then u could at least somewhat make an "informed decision" to decide whether to spend money on real equipment for your signal pipeline (--> your HT setup)...

pause the movie on any frame, enable/disable the 3D LUT... if ur eyes see only the tiniest of image shift, that means thousands and thousands of pixels (--> colors) are being corrected... 24 times per second... and if u're "lucky" on some frames u will see quite a drastic image shift which means hundreds of thousands / millions of pixels are corrected...

what all the "calibrators" don't do (and don't have time to do) is to check for (and show the customer) these "drastic frames" which will be specific to your set... there are special patterns and validation footage u can use, but then again, it could be a random shot in a western with blue sky and yellowish/earth tones in the same frame that would display a drastic improvement on a particular TV set...

so no, u don't have to get a 3D LUT, but it is the best possible calibration. That is the reason why US$40,000+ Pro screens that are ultra linear are also corrected and calibrated with a 3D LUT.

watched NOAH yesterday on Blu-ray on one of my 65^3 cal'ed VT60s.... looked outstanding.

- M

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AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
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post #14724 of 14725 Old Today, 03:41 PM
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In your ideal world there would be no pro calibrators and everyone would own equipment that is easily at least double the price of a high end plasma. Jealousy of what ? Please ! I have no doubt a 3dlut improves accuracy but the question is, is it worth over $2000 dollars to find out. The list of "real" experts that say it is not required for the VT60 numbers at least 4 that I know of. You and your cohort constantly ridicule traditional calibration. I don't understand it frankly, why not just be satisfied with what you have accomplished and leave it at that ? The need to constantly shove it down people's throats with the look at me look at me mentality is really ridiculous.

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post #14725 of 14725 Old Today, 03:54 PM
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chunon,

You miss the point. It's all because of "image quality." You know -- that thing which has no quantitative parameters and therefore can not be measured. That magical/mysterious thing which exists only in the mind of that poster.

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