Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 492 - AVS Forum
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post #14731 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
the reason why it's helpful to state these facts, is because in other threads or forums there has to be a lot of "cleaning up" to do when peeps say well I heard a 6pt cal is as good as a 3D LUT etc... it's just not true... is the difference on other displays as "small" as it is on the VT60 ? Depends on the display, "small" is obviously a relative term.

and (as u might know) then there's peeps saying they're doing a manual disc cal and it matches a 6pt cal done by a Pro using high end meters.

but, naturally a "bad" 3D LUT can be outperformed by a good 6pt cal, even THX as is... ;-)

1D LUTs are supported in semi-pro / lower-end pro screens and is Greyscale only, helpful if the gamut is spot on or can be controlled.

Thanks for the clarification, I understand that luts can be more valuable depending on the set. At least you concede it is a "small" difference. Appreciate you acknowledging that !

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post #14732 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
like your "straight line" 10pt greyscale images... hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa welcome to 2002, Larry.

why don't u run a 101pt or 255pt Greyscale and then post images... ?

ah right, that bubble you live in... u know, sometimes it's better not to know the truth...

your bff Zoyd with your other AVS only bud Gill is giving you the gift of free 65^3 cals but u just can't escape that bubble...

btw, IQ can't be measured... ?!? let me... wow... okay... well.... Larry, good luck.

Wow, you do seem to think that you know all. I've been using Argyll (not ArgyII) for many years. You don't know that but apparently you have no problem assuming it.

With one of my spare laptops, I ran a 729 point cal on my old Panasonic X1 using the command line Argyll and MadVR. The results were great and readily apparent. However, doing the same to with my VT60 yielded no visible difference at all compared to a standard HCFR calibration -- no visible difference at all. In other words, a 3DLUT has its place. That place is not with the VT60 however.

Larry
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post #14733 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post
Wow, you do seem to think that you know all. I've been using Argyll (not ArgyII) for many years. You don't know that but apparently you have no problem assuming it.

With one of my spare laptops, I ran a 729 point cal on my old Panasonic X1 using the command line Argyll and MadVR. The results were great and readily apparent. However, doing the same to with my VT60 yielded no visible difference at all compared to a standard HCFR calibration -- no visible difference at all. In other words, a 3DLUT has its place. That place is not with the VT60 however.

Larry

That is my only real point, it is not to dismiss 3dluts at all. Just IMO the effort and cost produces very little visual benefit. Even Buzz has mentioned you would have to compare side by side with the screen paused to see the difference.

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post #14734 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Does the 3D LUT calibration hardware handle 3D signals as well?
Yes. The Lumagens process all 3D formats and the eeColor Processor is limited to side by side or top/bottom (not sure about checkerboard). The eeColor will not process Blu-Ray frame packed 3D but this can be circumvented by ripping a Blu-Ray to an MKV file.

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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
That is my only real point, it is not to dismiss 3dluts at all. Just IMO the effort and cost produces very little visual benefit. Even Buzz has mentioned you would have to compare side by side with the screen paused to see the difference.
As Mike said, cycling a 3D LUT on and off on paused video will show a difference on any display. In my observation, color tracking on the VT60 is good enough that the difference will not be seen on motion video as opposed to displays that do not track well like the Sharp Elite.

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post #14735 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Yes. The Lumagens process all 3D formats and the eeColor Processor is limited to side by side or top/bottom (not sure about checkerboard). The eeColor will not process Blu-Ray frame packed 3D but this can be circumvented by ripping a Blu-Ray to an MKV file.



As Mike said, cycling a 3D LUT on and off on paused video will show a difference on any display. In my observation, color tracking on the VT60 is good enough that the difference will not be seen on motion video as opposed to displays that do not track well like the Sharp Elite.

Thanks Buzz

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post #14736 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post
Wow, you do seem to think that you know all. I've been using Argyll (not ArgyII) for many years. You don't know that but apparently you have no problem assuming it.

With one of my spare laptops, I ran a 729 point cal on my old Panasonic X1 using the command line Argyll and MadVR. The results were great and readily apparent. However, doing the same to with my VT60 yielded no visible difference at all compared to a standard HCFR calibration -- no visible difference at all. In other words, a 3DLUT has its place. That place is not with the VT60 however.

Larry
Larry you may want to try a large (21x3) LUT on your VT60.
Also understanding that the way madVR Argyii is setup you can not use Blu Ray disc if you want a menu.
So what type of source file bit rate, are you using and viewing on your VT60.?

Can you post a 500 point measurement report made using ArgyII/madVR.?

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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Yes. The Lumagens process all 3D formats and the eeColor Processor is limited to side by side or top/bottom (not sure about checkerboard). The eeColor will not process Blu-Ray frame packed 3D but this can be circumvented by ripping a Blu-Ray to an MKV file.



As Mike said, cycling a 3D LUT on and off on paused video will show a difference on any display. In my observation, color tracking on the VT60 is good enough that the difference will not be seen on motion video as opposed to displays that do not track well like the Sharp Elite.
In my experience, depending on what the source martial (how good it is) you are using and how good a 3DLUT you are using. I can see the difference in moving picture, imo frame comparisons may not be all that helpful. For one reason, you are not going to view a movie frame by frame.

Of course there is probably a difference in how you approach going about calibrating and how I approach it also the hardware/software we use.

Or as you put it, (sorry I don't remember your exact wording). It depends if you want to see the correct color of some team football's jersey.

Maybe It would be a good Idea (mike's suggestion, and he is correct) to run a large measurement report of 500 or 1000 point's. That way we can compare.

ss

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post #14737 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post
Wow, you do seem to think that you know all. I've been using Argyll (not ArgyII) for many years. You don't know that but apparently you have no problem assuming it.
With one of my spare laptops, I ran a 729 point cal on my old Panasonic X1 using the command line Argyll and MadVR. The results were great and readily apparent. However, doing the same to with my VT60 yielded no visible difference at all compared to a standard HCFR calibration -- no visible difference at all. In other words, a 3DLUT has its place. That place is not with the VT60 however.
Larry
the difference between me and you: I've done all of that with the best cal sw (--> LS), with the best mods and tweaks and I know the results. I've done it on multiple VT60s - four alone at my place. I KNOW.

I can't comment on ur results with Argyll, but SS can... and he seems to be liking the results very much...

the differences easily visible in all of the larger val patch set reports and the visual evaluation (using dedicated Pro footage and material), which I know from your posts you don't have and you don't do.

Again, u're arguing from the very, very limited information you have or that you care to gather. So rather useless.

U do 10pt GS - what else do I need to say ???

Maybe you don't "see the difference" (please check with ur doctor), I do and others do. You just don't know how to assess and validate IQ, which is exactly what u stated.

And it is obviously visible in moving images, but as with everything that can be scene dependent.

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post #14738 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Thanks for the clarification, I understand that luts can be more valuable depending on the set. At least you concede it is a "small" difference. Appreciate you acknowledging that !
as I clearly stated "small" is relative, so on the VT60 the improvements of the 3D LUTs are smaller compared to a 500 bucks Best Buy crap screen... yeah, and the 3D LUT still get a nice image out of the crap screen...

but the improvements are obviously not "small" enough for me or others to not use the LUT...

Like I said: 16.7 Million points... 24 frames per second... it is visible, same as the improvement of your 6pt cal is visible over a disc only cal and the improvement of a disc only cal is visible over a THX-as-is view...

and just to be clear: the freeze framing is done so u can directly compare much easier, it has nothing to with that the differences are not visible in moving images....

All very simple...

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post #14739 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 08:36 PM
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So with 3DLUT can someone use completely neutral values on the TV and produce an accurate picture? I understand things like clipping points need to be done on the panel itself

Also can you calibrate sRGB for your entire PC environment, games and such or are lookup tables just for video? thanks
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post #14740 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 08:50 PM
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So with 3DLUT can someone use completely neutral values on the TV and produce an accurate picture? I understand things like clipping points need to be done on the panel itself

Also can you calibrate sRGB for your entire PC environment, games and such or are lookup tables just for video? thanks
the picture will be as accurate as it can be, meaning: it depends on how accurate ur meters are, the cal software u use and naturally what the display is capable of in it's raw state... on the VT60 u have a very, very good panel and it will just scream with a 3D LUT...

I've mentioned this before, this panel (in combination with an eeColor) is used by quite a few post house for Rec709 client evaluation as a "real world" end-consumer display...

u can calibrate to any color space target (Rec709/sRGB/AdobeRGB/DCI/etc) IF (!) your panel's gamut is wide enough... sRGB has exact same gamut as Rec709, so no problem with the VT60...

also, as has been mentioned many times before: a 3D LUT on the smaller size VT60's (50/55") is the best way to get rid of green faces... and peeps here claim u don't see the difference !!!!!! it's such a joke !!!! man, the freakin' faces are GREEN !!!!!

but I guess, if you like the Wizard of Oz then that could be cool.............
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post #14741 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM
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post #14742 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
the picture will be as accurate as it can be, meaning: it depends on how accurate ur meters are, the cal software u use and naturally what the display is capable of in it's raw state... on the VT60 u have a very, very good panel and it will just scream with a 3D LUT...

I've mentioned this before, this panel (in combination with an eeColor) is used by quite a few post house for Rec709 client evaluation as a "real world" end-consumer display...

u can calibrate to any color space target (Rec709/sRGB/AdobeRGB/DCI/etc) IF (!) your panel's gamut is wide enough... sRGB has exact same gamut as Rec709, so no problem with the VT60...

also, as has been mentioned many times before: a 3D LUT on the smaller size VT60's (50/55") is the best way to get rid of green faces... and peeps here claim u don't see the difference !!!!!! it's such a joke !!!! man, the freakin' faces are GREEN !!!!!

but I guess, if you like the Wizard of Oz then that could be cool.............
Alot of very respected people claim gradations are not real as well, that one I dont understand and maybe Panasonic should have limited themselves to a total of 1000-2744 displayable colors as Pioneer did and everyone would finally be happy
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post #14743 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM
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Mike, don't forget about your tools to build a custom patch set for LS.

ss
yeah, but that's too advanced for this conversation... the traditional grid sequences already outperform 6pt cals...

btw, new stuff on the way including some basic Argyll support... ;-)

I saw the VT60 report u posted the other day from Argyll, looked good on the charts !
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post #14744 of 14745 Old Yesterday, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
yeah, but that's too advanced for this conversation... the traditional grid sequences already outperform 6pt cals...

btw, new stuff on the way including some basic Argyll support... ;-)

I saw the VT60 report u posted the other day from Argyll, looked good on the charts !
Mike, btw I still like LS and am awaiting Steve's new updates. But in the mean time I wanted to learn Argyii. Not easy but I am having fun learning how to use it.

And yes you are right your tools are a little advanced for this thread.

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post #14745 of 14745 Old Today, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
as I clearly stated "small" is relative, so on the VT60 the improvements of the 3D LUTs are smaller compared to a 500 bucks Best Buy crap screen... yeah, and the 3D LUT still get a nice image out of the crap screen...

but the improvements are obviously not "small" enough for me or others to not use the LUT...

Like I said: 16.7 Million points... 24 frames per second... it is visible, same as the improvement of your 6pt cal is visible over a disc only cal and the improvement of a disc only cal is visible over a THX-as-is view...

and just to be clear: the freeze framing is done so u can directly compare much easier, it has nothing to with that the differences are not visible in moving images....

All very simple...

In your opinion would the difference be visible in lower quality sources like broadcast tv, sporting events etc ? That is 95% of my viewing.

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