Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 533 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15961 of 16959 Old 04-13-2015, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Already doing that. It's the default in CalMAN, after all.
BT.1886 isn't always the default setting in Calman. It depends on work mode you have Calman set to, always check to make sure. I use Calman for my pre calibration/profile settings.

It just takes a little getting use to. In my display VT60, using the settings I use. BT.1886 lines up the best without big swings in my settings. So mainly in my pre calibration settings I use RGB high and low with a little touch up with the detail settings.


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post #15962 of 16959 Old 04-13-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AudiophileWalt View Post
When Chad B "touched up" my 60VT60 after 3000 hours the grayscale and color temp shifts were quite significant confirming what SS says about white level shifts. The color temp was down .to 6027 avg and the grayscale avg delta was up to 2.7. After the "retouch" the temp avg was 6453 and gscale delta at .48 about the same as when he first calibrated it after 300 hours. His trained eye said the shift produced a yellowish tint. He said future shifts would be less dramatic. Personally, I could tell a difference after both of his calibrations but didn't notice the gradual white level shift over 9 months of viewing.
I should have Chad B do a touch up the next time he's in the area. Its been 15 months since he first calibrated my 60VT60.

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post #15963 of 16959 Old 04-14-2015, 07:00 AM
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Hello ss,

I was wondering what kind of patterns you chose to calibrate your VT60 with. APL? Regular window patterns? What size? Thanks!
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post #15964 of 16959 Old 04-14-2015, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by boum View Post
Hello ss,

I was wondering what kind of patterns you chose to calibrate your VT60 with. APL? Regular window patterns? What size? Thanks!
I use madVR/TPG as my PC's internal pattern generator connected to my VT60 via HDMI. I set madTPG too.
10% window size.
0 APL, black back ground.
Output 16/235 legal video level.
K10 (color meter) set in off-screen. Done at night, no lights on in room door closed.

I have been experimenting with and using the latest beta's, discalGUI, ArgyllCMS and madVR. Creating a very large custom patch set of 13154 measured color patches plus 12 saturation sweeps. Took me about 8 hours to complete this calibration, setting 65000 reference color points incl. grayscale. (normal is 16 color points incl grayscale)
Running a fairly extensive calibration report using 493 measured color points incl. grayscale/Gamma/RGB balance/color temp/Gamut/sat and lum.
My Measured black luminance: of .0007 FtL. Without crushing black.
Measured luminance:127.0 cd/m²
Giving my VT60 a Contrast: 39500:1
Avg dE2000 is 0.34 with a high of 1.37.

My point is, that's how good/great are VT60 can be.

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post #15965 of 16959 Old 04-14-2015, 08:48 AM
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From where does the number 493 arise?
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post #15966 of 16959 Old 04-14-2015, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
From where does the number 493 arise?
The 493 is how many different color patches I measured for this calibration report. If you want to view the different color patches and the 21 grayscale patches along with the report. Click on the link below, download file and open with your browser.
If you get a redirect just x out of the redirect and you will be back on the download page for this file. Its safe
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...70079727924087

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post #15967 of 16959 Old 04-15-2015, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
I use madVR/TPG as my PC's internal pattern generator connected to my VT60 via HDMI. I set madTPG too.
10% window size.
0 APL, black back ground.
Output 16/235 legal video level.
K10 (color meter) set in off-screen. Done at night, no lights on in room door closed.

I have been experimenting with and using the latest beta's, discalGUI, ArgyllCMS and madVR. Creating a very large custom patch set of 13154 measured color patches plus 12 saturation sweeps. Took me about 8 hours to complete this calibration, setting 65000 reference color points incl. grayscale. (normal is 16 color points incl grayscale)
Running a fairly extensive calibration report using 493 measured color points incl. grayscale/Gamma/RGB balance/color temp/Gamut/sat and lum.
My Measured black luminance: of .0007 FtL. Without crushing black.
Measured luminance:127.0 cd/m²
Giving my VT60 a Contrast: 39500:1
Avg dE2000 is 0.34 with a high of 1.37.

My point is, that's how good/great are VT60 can be.

ss
Thanks for this detailed info!
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post #15968 of 16959 Old 04-15-2015, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The 493 is how many different color patches I measured for this calibration report.
Yes, I realize that. But why 493 and not some other number?

Quote:
If you want to view the different color patches and the 21 grayscale patches along with the report. Click on the link below, download file and open with your browser.

If you get a redirect just x out of the redirect and you will be back on the download page for this file. Its safe

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...70079727924087

I'll have a look next time I'm at my desktop machine.

Thank you.
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post #15969 of 16959 Old 04-16-2015, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
Yes, I realize that. But why 493 and not some other number?

I'll have a look next time I'm at my desktop machine.

Thank you.
Measuring 493 points save's me time, and gives me a good understanding on how the process came out.
I know my VT60, but if it was a different display I would run a 1000 point measurement report as I have in the past on my VT60.

Most calibration reports that you will see only measure 10 points of the grayscale and up to (usually 7 points) 93 gamut points.

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post #15970 of 16959 Old 04-16-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Measuring 493 points save's me time, and gives me a good understanding on how the process came out.

I know my VT60, but if it was a different display I would run a 1000 point measurement report as I have in the past on my VT60.



Most calibration reports that you will see only measure 10 points of the grayscale and up to (usually 7 points) 93 gamut points.



ss

That would make 103 in total (10 + 93).

Again, you haven't really explained how that 493 number is derived. I'm guessing it's 400 + the above mentioned 93 gamut points, with the 400 coming from somewhere. If you can explain this, I won't need to guess.

Last edited by fluxo; 04-17-2015 at 01:23 AM.
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post #15971 of 16959 Old 04-19-2015, 04:31 PM
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What is the target gamma for THX 3-D? I know THX cinema is 2.2 with typical VT readings of 2.26-2.27, bright room is 1.9 typically at 1.92 on VT's. Just curious what the target gamma for THX 3-D is?
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post #15972 of 16959 Old 04-20-2015, 09:02 AM
 
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Do you guys think all isf pro calibrator will get the same result if they will calibrate the vt60?or it depends whoever calibrating the set? Im about hiring someone, im choosing two of them the other one charge me $100 less than the other guy. Do u think does it matter?
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post #15973 of 16959 Old 04-20-2015, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tapsilog View Post
Do you guys think all isf pro calibrator will get the same result if they will calibrate the vt60?or it depends whoever calibrating the set? Im about hiring someone, im choosing two of them the other one charge me $100 less than the other guy. Do u think does it matter?
A good tell tail is what kind of meter or meters does he use, how much experience does he have with the VT60, references.


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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
That would make 103 in total (10 + 93).
Again, you haven't really explained how that 493 number is derived. I'm guessing it's 400 + the above mentioned 93 gamut points, with the 400 coming from somewhere. If you can explain this, I won't need to guess.
Look at the report, otherwise guess.

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post #15974 of 16959 Old 04-21-2015, 05:55 AM
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Curious how often you guys have your display calibrated? I've read that some of you have had your display get brighter and shift. I believe my display has gotten brighter with age but what's "shift"? I had my 60VT60 calibrated by Chad B last February when it had 400 hours on it. The display currently has 3800 hours and I sent Chad B an email to see if he can do a tune-up next time he's in the area.

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post #15975 of 16959 Old 04-21-2015, 09:38 AM
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Curious how often you guys have your display calibrated? I've read that some of you have had your display get brighter and shift. I believe my display has gotten brighter with age but what's "shift"? I had my 60VT60 calibrated by Chad B last February when it had 400 hours on it. The display currently has 3800 hours and I sent Chad B an email to see if he can do a tune-up next time he's in the area.
According to the calibrators you're due for a check-up. I'm coming up on 2 years with my VT60 and DNice did mine a few months after I bought it. Honestly the picture looks as good as ever and I'm not dropping $ for something that isn't bothering me right now. The next set I buy may push me into the DIY calibration category. Can't watch everything on my VT

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #15976 of 16959 Old 04-21-2015, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
According to the calibrators you're due for a check-up. I'm coming up on 2 years with my VT60 and DNice did mine a few months after I bought it. Honestly the picture looks as good as ever and I'm not dropping $ for something that isn't bothering me right now. The next set I buy may push me into the DIY calibration category. Can't watch everything on my VT
Agree...will get a tune-up in the next month or two if Chad B is available and then maybe again in 2 years. Picture still looks fantastic and I'm impressed more and more each time I watch it. I didn't realize how many hours I put on the display in a year...is 3800 hours in 15 months the norm?

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post #15977 of 16959 Old 04-21-2015, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
According to the calibrators you're due for a check-up. I'm coming up on 2 years with my VT60 and DNice did mine a few months after I bought it. Honestly the picture looks as good as ever and I'm not dropping $ for something that isn't bothering me right now. The next set I buy may push me into the DIY calibration category. Can't watch everything on my VT
Uhoh once you start diy youll be hooked
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post #15978 of 16959 Old 04-27-2015, 06:04 AM
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I've got to envy you guys that have access to great calibrators. I'm in Singapore and although I found a few guys who did calibration here, non do now. That's also coupled with the fact that you'd never be too sure here if they would be any good anyway, references etc.
I'm just wondering if I could get enough people here to make it viable to all put in for an airfare and a few nights in a good hotel for some like D-Nice or SillySally to consider a flying visit, a couple of days calibrating then have a free holiday.
Just chucking an idea up the air

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post #15979 of 16959 Old 04-27-2015, 03:31 PM
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I've got to envy you guys that have access to great calibrators. I'm in Singapore and although I found a few guys who did calibration here, non do now. That's also coupled with the fact that you'd never be too sure here if they would be any good anyway, references etc.
I'm just wondering if I could get enough people here to make it viable to all put in for an airfare and a few nights in a good hotel for some like D-Nice or SillySally to consider a flying visit, a couple of days calibrating then have a free holiday.
Just chucking an idea up the air
Wow..., if I was a calibrator and got an offer like that it would be hard to turn down.
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post #15980 of 16959 Old 04-28-2015, 04:35 AM
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I'm expecting everyone in this thread to suddenly declare themselves to be experienced calibrators willing to travel the world to help those in need of adjustment...it's a 12-step program.

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post #15981 of 16959 Old 04-28-2015, 02:26 PM
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I had D-Nice out to calibrate my 55VT60 and 65VT60 last week. After numerous fiddling with my iDisplay Pro and never being fully satisfied, I now feel much better about the performance I'm getting.

After some discussion, D-Nice opted to use the Normal color temp and target BT1886 gamma for ISF Night and 2.2ish for ISF Day. I primarily watch in a dark room, so I could care less about day mode, even though squeezing over 50ftL out of both sets was surprising to me. I had some initial concerns with older movies looking bad with BT1886, but he assured me that, when done properly, there are not any issues.

The black-levels measured a little differently on the two panels, as I expected from my own experiences with my iDiplay Pro (.0012 on the 65 and .0017 on the 55 via D-Nice's Klein K10a). I wanted the max output for both sets as close as possible for consistency purposes (32ish is my usual target). There ended up being a subtle gap between the two, with the 65 coming in at 33ftL and the 55 coming in at 31ftL. D-Nice told me that when he attempted to click up the contrast on the 55, weird anomalies started happening with the grayscale. While I can definitely notice a subtle difference between the two with my eyes in terms of brightness, I doubt it would be worth the grayscale sacrifices.

My only regret is clearing out my personal settings before D-Nice arrived. I would have been curious to see just how off my settings were in comparison to his measurements. Another interesting thing I noticed was that the brightness was set to +4 on both panels (2.4 gamma preset). I always had mine at +7 from using the AVSHD brightness chart. Clearly, I have a lot to learn

Overall, I'm very pleased with the results. I have a link to the reports-only (no settings), but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them or not.


What kind and size of windows did D'nice use? Did he use APL?
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post #15982 of 16959 Old 04-29-2015, 10:26 AM
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It really depends. If they have good equipment, there shouldn't be any difference in terms of color, but there are some subjective differences that come into play (gamma and brightness). Some calibrators only calibrate to 2.2 gamma out of dogmatic practice while others use BT1886 or 2.4. The difference between the two is noticeable. Target brightness also is a factor. Some calibrators target 35ftL regardless of the environment, while others will take into consideriation things like how close you sit, how much ambient light you have, and what YOU want.

One calibrator told me he only calibrates THX Cinema and that ISF modes are extra, which I thought was a bit weird. In addition, someome else may only give you ONE mode instead of a Day and Night.

There are a lot of factors to consider.
Don't walk but run away from that calibrator. THX modes only
Read your manual and see why that is a giant red flag. ISF modes should be standard and are what most calibrators use/do when working on your display - see DNice post above. Normally they will also add a 3D calibration since the VT offers it. DNice when he worked on mine was kind enough to add a 4th (Standard) that would allow me to play with the settings. I have left my display on ISF Day since he left the house nearly 2 years ago and have been smiling ever since. Same results with the Kuro he did for me before.

If you're getting a calibration done, head over to that thread a look at those who tour your area. Chad, DNice, Kevin Miller, and a number of others are worth every penny IMO. If you do it, do it right

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #15983 of 16959 Old 04-29-2015, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
I had D-Nice out to calibrate my 55VT60 and 65VT60 last week. After numerous fiddling with my iDisplay Pro and never being fully satisfied, I now feel much better about the performance I'm getting.

After some discussion, D-Nice opted to use the Normal color temp and target BT1886 gamma for ISF Night and 2.2ish for ISF Day. I primarily watch in a dark room, so I could care less about day mode, even though squeezing over 50ftL out of both sets was surprising to me. I had some initial concerns with older movies looking bad with BT1886, but he assured me that, when done properly, there are not any issues.

The black-levels measured a little differently on the two panels, as I expected from my own experiences with my iDiplay Pro (.0012 on the 65 and .0017 on the 55 via D-Nice's Klein K10a). I wanted the max output for both sets as close as possible for consistency purposes (32ish is my usual target). There ended up being a subtle gap between the two, with the 65 coming in at 33ftL and the 55 coming in at 31ftL. D-Nice told me that when he attempted to click up the contrast on the 55, weird anomalies started happening with the grayscale. While I can definitely notice a subtle difference between the two with my eyes in terms of brightness, I doubt it would be worth the grayscale sacrifices.

My only regret is clearing out my personal settings before D-Nice arrived. I would have been curious to see just how off my settings were in comparison to his measurements. Another interesting thing I noticed was that the brightness was set to +4 on both panels (2.4 gamma preset). I always had mine at +7 from using the AVSHD brightness chart. Clearly, I have a lot to learn

Overall, I'm very pleased with the results. I have a link to the reports-only (no settings), but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them or not.
Most definitely on the reports. If you can there is a thread dedicated to posting the results of your calibration - see the calibration thread. You can post it here as well and it should get moved. A lot of us like to see how the panel started and how it ended up being calibrated. DNice is a great calibrator and a very nice person. He's taught me a lot the two times he's visited my home. Hope you're as happy with the results as I am, and I'm nearly 2 years out now on my VT.

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #15984 of 16959 Old 04-29-2015, 04:19 PM
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The guy who told me he typically does THX only told me that you can make adjustments to the settings via the service menu. I have never heard of anyone doing this before.

Anyway, are are my reports if anyone is curious.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/miwd94ad8...z2aP7n5za?dl=0
Very nice looking reports.
You should be very happy with your calibration.

ss
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post #15985 of 16959 Old 04-30-2015, 03:29 AM
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He also renamed the Professional labels as ISF Day and ISF Night. I didn't even know you could do this. I forgot to ask how.
Simply change your password to i196 under Picture/Lock settings.
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post #15986 of 16959 Old 04-30-2015, 04:16 PM
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Blank pixels in top left corner on FOX channels

Recently while streaming Sons of Anarchy via Amazon I noticed that a couple of pixels were always black in the top row, far left side, whenever overscan was off. If I turned overscan on the missing pixels returned. Yesterday I was watching a show on FOX and the same thing happened.

Have any of you experienced this? At first I was concerned that something was wrong with the VT60, but now I believe it's a content issue, specifically something to do with the various Fox channels, FOX, FX, etc.
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post #15987 of 16959 Old 05-01-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by p3Orion View Post
Recently while streaming Sons of Anarchy via Amazon I noticed that a couple of pixels were always black in the top row, far left side, whenever overscan was off. If I turned overscan on the missing pixels returned. Yesterday I was watching a show on FOX and the same thing happened.

Have any of you experienced this? At first I was concerned that something was wrong with the VT60, but now I believe it's a content issue, specifically something to do with the various Fox channels, FOX, FX, etc.
Not being a smart xxx - but why are you using overscan? Never used it on any of my displays.
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post #15988 of 16959 Old 05-01-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Not being a smart xxx - but why are you using overscan? Never used it on any of my displays.
Certain channels leave 1/8-3/8 inch strip(s) of unlit pixels along the top and one or both sides when overscan is off. Even worse if pixel orbiter is turned on. I don't always turn it on on those channels, but if I watch a substantial amount of content I turn it on occasionally. The only reason why I turn it on in these circumstances is to avoid uneven wear. I'm not even sure if leaving overscan off all the time would eventually become noticeable over time, but I do it anyway.
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post #15989 of 16959 Old 05-01-2015, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Look at the report, otherwise guess.
Ok. I've now had a chance to look at your calibration report and I can see what you are measuring. I am still not sure how that particular sample set is justified. What is the statistical basis for it?

I have noticed one or two other oddities in the report, which may be due to a lack of understanding on my part. For example, please refer to this:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1430545466

The profile white point is not the D65 reference white, as per Rec. 709 (specified). Why not?

Your XYZ co-ordinates for it are {95.05,100,108.91}. They should be {95.047, 100, 108.883}. When rounded: {95.05, 100, 108.88}. What's up with your Z?

Moving on to the first two rows of the measurements table.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...hmentid=696330

In row 1, RGB={255,255,255}, for "nominal" XYZ values you have {96.42,100,82.49}. Those values correspond to neither your profile white point nor your measured white point. What is that XYZ triple supposed to represent?

In row 2, RGB={0,0,0}, for "nominal" XYZ values you have {0.0036,0.0038,0.004}. What is that XYZ triple supposed to represent? It is the wrong base point for a BT.1886 curve with a screen luminance for black of 0.0025 cd/m^2 (your measured MLL), unless you are using black level lift. Moreover, your report specifies BT.1886.

For the CIE Lab colour space nominals, what are you using as your reference white? Are you using a target (say, D65 @ 120 cd/m^2) or are you using your actual measured white point?

Thank you.
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post #15990 of 16959 Old 05-02-2015, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post


Moving on to the first two rows of the measurements table.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...hmentid=696330

In row 1, RGB={255,255,255}, for "nominal" XYZ values you have {96.42,100,82.49}. Those values correspond to neither your profile white point nor your measured white point. What is that XYZ triple supposed to represent?

In row 2, RGB={0,0,0}, for "nominal" XYZ values you have {0.0036,0.0038,0.004}. What is that XYZ triple supposed to represent? It is the wrong base point for a BT.1886 curve with a screen luminance for black of 0.0025 cd/m^2 (your measured MLL), unless you are using black level lift. Moreover, your report specifies BT.1886.
The measured coordinates have been peak white normalized x 100 (the source space is already 0-100), and then chromatically transformed to D50. You'd have to ask @fhoech why he chose those coordinates for reporting.

So the measured black Y is 0.002 /100 * 123.3 = 0.002466 cd/m^2 and nominal should be Y = 0.002466 * 123.3/100 = 0.00304 cd/m^2.
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