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post #3121 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM
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Thanks for the settings posted and some other insight for the non-technical. Just set up my new F8500 and after inputting one video setting on the HDMI 1 input for my DTV Sat, was wondering if there's an option for a second setup on the same input.

Thx again
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post #3122 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Zoyd could probably explain in more detail (I think I've figured it out but I'm not sure so I don't want to offer any possibly bad advice) and if he confirms that I've done it properly you might consider trying it. I really like it in my darkish room so I want to achieve the BT.1886 @2.4 gamma curve at lower than 97 contrast. Just can't play with the meter ALL day.
yes that's right, a lot of people prefer shifting the BT.1886 curve upwards in a dim environment so you can try the 2.4 "effective" setting.
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post #3123 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
Wow those results were great. Are you using ABL small or large patterns?i'm going to copy that was exactly and see what kind of results I get. Thanks.

Also take my color settings with a grain of salt. I always run it when I'm done with gamma and grayscale but I'm often tired or at the end of my free time at that point and settle for good enough. You might be able to improve upon the errors and saturation points if you play with it a bit.
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post #3124 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
yes that's right, a lot of people prefer shifting the BT.1886 curve upwards in a dim environment so you can try the 2.4 "effective" setting.
Thank you for confirming that!
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post #3125 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimdish255 View Post
Thanks for the settings posted and some other insight for the non-technical. Just set up my new F8500 and after inputting one video setting on the HDMI 1 input for my DTV Sat, was wondering if there's an option for a second setup on the same input.

Thx again

You can unlock Cal-Day and Cal Night Modes to get three configurations on the same input but I found them a bit buggy (they seemed to lose the settings I entered but otherwise calibrated similar to movie mode) and you have to enter the service menu to do it (which can be dangerous). On the Brightside you can get rid of them by doing a in menu system reset without having to go back into the service menu. I didn't think it was worth it.


USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.


ACTIVATING CAL DAY AND CAL NIGHT MODES:
1. Turn the TV off and unplug the TV.
2. Unplug all HDMI cords from the TV.
3. Plug tv back in..
4. On the IR remote control, press Mute, 1, 8, 2, Power. It takes a few seconds and then the service menu will appear
5. Arrow down to SVC and press the Enter button in the center of the arrows
6. Arrow down to Expert and press Enter
7. Right arrow on N/D ADJ to ON !!! NOT "FIX" !!!
8. Then With the down arrow key, highlight the "Source" item and use the right or left arrow keys to get "ALL". Press Enter
9. Press Power
10. Wait a few seconds
11. Press Power
12. The Picture Mode will start in Dynamic
13. Change Picture Mode and reconnect hdmi cords
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post #3126 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
So my zig zag line that starts at around 2.05 and climbs up to 2.35 is complete wrong is what you're saying? For some reason to me the picture looks great.
that actually looks like a bt1886 inspired curve taken to the extreme.

ultimately gamma is a curious thing as there isn't really a defined 'standard' just 'accepted norms'. bt1886 has been popular for a few years, and i like the idea behind it. the thing is, with displays that have really good blacks, it's not as necessary, so on teh f8500, i don't think it's going to be a huge difference. on the lcd i have in my bedroom, it really helps with teh shadow details.

i would also recommend, before you get too obsessed with dE's of .2 or less(trust me, i was there myself), try doing a 20pt greyscale. i think you might be shocked about what is happening between the 10pts, and hopefully it'll convince you to stop chasing perfection. even if the meter were 100% accurate, which it's not, and the display was 100% consistent, which it's not, get those ultra low dE's on 10pts doesn't necessarily mean it's as accurate as it can be.

i found that the more i tried to dial in perfect dE's, the worse my greyscale really got. i might have a dE of .1 at 90% and .2 at 100%, but in between those points, it'd be total chaos.

this was one of my first calibrations, looks great on the graph:


but when looking at the greyscale ramp or step pattern, i CLEARLY had issues.

in reality, my latest settings have a better greyscale consider ALL points, but it doesn't look nearly as good on a graph:



again, there's what looks good on a graph with minimal points measured...


and there's what looks good with real world content
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post #3127 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM
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Good advice from fierce_gt


What I normally do is do everything in ten point like I always have and then do a 20pt pass to make sure it's not too horrific. Normally it only gets bad in between if you really had to crank the adjustments on a specific interval really high. Here is the twenty point pass for the thee calibration I posted a few posts ago.


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post #3128 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
You can unlock Cal-Day and Cal Night Modes to get three configurations on the same input but I found them a bit buggy (they seemed to lose the settings I entered but otherwise calibrated similar to movie mode) and you have to enter the service menu to do it (which can be dangerous). On the Brightside you can get rid of them by doing a in menu system reset without having to go back into the service menu. I didn't think it was worth it.


USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.


ACTIVATING CAL DAY AND CAL NIGHT MODES:
1. Turn the TV off and unplug the TV.
2. Unplug all HDMI cords from the TV.
3. Plug tv back in..
4. On the IR remote control, press Mute, 1, 8, 2, Power. It takes a few seconds and then the service menu will appear
5. Arrow down to SVC and press the Enter button in the center of the arrows
6. Arrow down to Expert and press Enter
7. Right arrow on N/D ADJ to ON !!! NOT "FIX" !!!
8. Then With the down arrow key, highlight the "Source" item and use the right or left arrow keys to get "ALL". Press Enter
9. Press Power
10. Wait a few seconds
11. Press Power
12. The Picture Mode will start in Dynamic
13. Change Picture Mode and reconnect hdmi cords
Printed this out but will hold off until I've established a distinct setting for both environments. Thanks for your detailed instruction.
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post #3129 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Good advice from fierce_gt


What I normally do is do everything in ten point like I always have and then do a 20pt pass to make sure it's not too horrific. Normally it only gets bad in between if you really had to crank the adjustments on a specific interval really high. Here is the twenty point pass for the thee calibration I posted a few posts ago.


exactly. there's nothing wrong with what you posted, dE's well below 3, so should be unnoticeable. but if i saw those numbers on my 10pt even jsut a month ago, it would have been 'bad' and i would have spent hours getting them lower. probably at the sacrifice of making them worse in between points. not always, but like you said, if you get aggressive with adjustments, it's more likely to occur. and, i always had to be pretty aggressive to get ALL my points under .5. if i allow a couple to remain between 1-2, i think the overall result is actually better

i guess i first noticed this when i started to prefer my game mode calibration to the movie mode one. that was a pretty big red flag imo

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post #3130 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
In my limited experience I feel like BT.1886 brings out more shadow detail but if you like the level of detail you get in dark scenes on say 2.4 then there is no reason to change.


And as I struggle with the PITA called gamma correction on this set I'm almost ready to just take Gamma -1 and call it a day without many further adjustments if it's relatively flat.


But don't go by me....I'm about ready to roll with 100 contrast and settle for the white clipping because it makes everything else SO much easier.
Thinking of trying out your settings as I believe we both have 51" sets. I'm not clear on the term white clipping and what causes it. I see contrast 100 but Cell Light and Brightness not too high.
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post #3131 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Here are my settings if you want a comparison. As I mentioned the contrast is too high but it was nice to see the ten point line up so well.
Well, that didn't go well.

I plugged in your exact settings, used the same pattern and these are my results.





Pretty crazy difference, it's like it's not even calibrated at all. Really highlights how each set is different and just plugging in numbers found online really doesn't do anything.
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post #3132 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimdish255 View Post
Thinking of trying out your settings as I believe we both have 51" sets. I'm not clear on the term white clipping and what causes it. I see contrast 100 but Cell Light and Brightness not too high.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28photography%29

In this case contrast being about three ticks too high causes it.

And yeah my set is a 51.
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post #3133 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
Well, that didn't go well.

I plugged in your exact settings, used the same pattern and these are my results.





Pretty crazy difference, it's like it's not even calibrated at all. Really highlights how each set is different and just plugging in numbers found online really doesn't do anything.
Farther than I would have expected. Did you forget the two point?
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post #3134 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Farther than I would have expected. Did you forget the two point?
I did not forget. I copied everything to a T, even double checked to make sure after I saw everything was so far off.

I did forgot one thing though since it wasn't in your chart but noticed after I went to change settings to my own later...I forgot to change screen size to Screen Fit from 16:9. Would that have any impact at all on the results? I'm tempted to input everything again (cleared it all out ).
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post #3135 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
I did not forget. I copied everything to a T, even double checked to make sure after I saw everything was so far off.

I did forgot one thing though since it wasn't in your chart but noticed after I went to change settings to my own later...I forgot to change screen size to Screen Fit from 16:9. Would that have any impact at all on the results? I'm tempted to input everything again (cleared it all out ).
Yeah that would be fine to leave out.
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So I went back in earlier and redid two calibrations. One set back to how I had it when I liked it using CAL-NIGHT, when the picture wasn't adjusted for gamma at all and I used the ABL small pattern, just like original. This is the result I got.






Then I got curious what would happen if I used the ABL large pattern instead, so I did a calibration in MOVIE. The settings were much different, and the resulting gamma curve is also much different.







Isn't that strange what a big difference between the two simply because of using different patterns? Not only are the gamma curves different, but the peak brightness and 0% black level is also different.
The APL large pattern though seems to be the more accurate to use of the two based on the gamma curve it seems though, right?

More interesting however is that in actual use, there is almost no difference in the picture. Most scenes, I would say 8/10, I can see now change in lighting, color, or anything else. Some scenes, like something with a bright sky and also some landscape, the color of the sky seems to shift every so slightly, but again barely noticeable and you really have to look for it with a paused scene to see it. I would think such different gamma curves and luminance levels would be much more noticeable. I guess if you get the greyscale right, then the rest doesn't matter too much on this TV.
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One other thing, I still have Color Space on Auto, but my CIS looks pretty spot on for the primaries and secondaries. Is there any point of even messing with these?

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Looks like I found my "Day Mode". STANDARD greyscale calibrates surpassingly well considering there is no 10pt white balance adjustment available. Weird how this is my straightest gamma curve.

210.8 cd/m2 brightness, should be great for football games!





Last edited by HX_Guy; Yesterday at 08:03 PM.
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post #3140 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM
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So looking for opinions.


Is white clipping a bad place for compromise?


I'm just not finding a group of settings that I like more than my 100 contrast base 2.4 BT.1886 gamma calibration. It clips one level of white and on the color clipping pattern I believe (it can be hard to tell and I may not remember exactly) two levels of red, one green and one blue. Red is definitely running out of steam...blue and green might actually be fine. I've been reading the pattern by eye rather than attempting to use my meter.


I realize this could easily be avoided by lowering the contrast a few ticks but as I mentioned I can't seem to get that combination to work really well.


Is this error likely to affect that much of the picture when watching normal content?
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post #3141 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
So I went back in earlier and redid two calibrations. One set back to how I had it when I liked it using CAL-NIGHT, when the picture wasn't adjusted for gamma at all and I used the ABL small pattern, just like original. This is the result I got.






Then I got curious what would happen if I used the ABL large pattern instead, so I did a calibration in MOVIE. The settings were much different, and the resulting gamma curve is also much different.







Isn't that strange what a big difference between the two simply because of using different patterns? Not only are the gamma curves different, but the peak brightness and 0% black level is also different.
The APL large pattern though seems to be the more accurate to use of the two based on the gamma curve it seems though, right?

More interesting however is that in actual use, there is almost no difference in the picture. Most scenes, I would say 8/10, I can see now change in lighting, color, or anything else. Some scenes, like something with a bright sky and also some landscape, the color of the sky seems to shift every so slightly, but again barely noticeable and you really have to look for it with a paused scene to see it. I would think such different gamma curves and luminance levels would be much more noticeable. I guess if you get the greyscale right, then the rest doesn't matter too much on this TV.
this is just evidence of why worrying about decimals is pointless. the graphs need to look downright awful before you're going to notice it with real content.
I've also played around a bit with what patterns to use, and I've decided to stick with the fields. using the apl patterns is probably best for getting good looking blacks/shadows when the rest of the screen is bright, but I found it didn't help with low apl scenes, which imo, is what needs the most work. I've never been watching bright content and thought the blacks looked bad, but I routinely thought that with very low apl content. using the fields seems to let me dial in blacks for dark scenes, and whites for bright scenes. apl patterns let you dial in everything for 'average' scenes. I guess decide what kind of scene bothers you the most. for me, it was always the dark scenes.


either way, it's not a huge deal. I think the difference I had between fields and high apl patterns was right around dE change of 3. JUST barely noticeable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
One other thing, I still have Color Space on Auto, but my CIS looks pretty spot on for the primaries and secondaries. Is there any point of even messing with these?

it's been my experience that 100% points are accurate or very easy to get accurate, but the 25, 50, and 75% points are WAY WAY off. even using just the CMS was not enough for me, I had to change the color setting as well. what I found is that at 50, and the 100% points lined up nearly perfect, the points less than 100% were way too bright. the delta luminance values I was getting ranged from +5 to +30%! by turning up the color, and then adjusting the cms so the 100% points line up again, I was able to get the 25, 50, 75% points much closer. I found I got the best results on the charts with color as high as 62, but a more subtle approach looked much better with content. something around 53-55 is what I would recommend, but only if you're going to adjust the cms as well.


actually, the last time I did it, I used the 75% saturations, got those lined up with the lowest dE's I could, then ran 100% without changing any settings, and did full saturation sweeps to make sure nothing was over 3.0. the charts look ok, but the content looks great to me.


but leaving it at auto certainly isn't terrible. colors are just a little more 'vivid' than they ought to be at times. actually somewhat pleasing imo. but technically it's more accurate with a little tweaking

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post #3142 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
So looking for opinions.


Is white clipping a bad place for compromise?


I'm just not finding a group of settings that I like more than my 100 contrast base 2.4 BT.1886 gamma calibration. It clips one level of white and on the color clipping pattern I believe (it can be hard to tell and I may not remember exactly) two levels of red, one green and one blue. Red is definitely running out of steam...blue and green might actually be fine. I've been reading the pattern by eye rather than attempting to use my meter.


I realize this could easily be avoided by lowering the contrast a few ticks but as I mentioned I can't seem to get that combination to work really well.


Is this error likely to affect that much of the picture when watching normal content?
this is of course just my opinion...
when you say it's clipping 'one level' do you mean that 234 doesn't flash? or 254? if you're clipping at 234 I'm actually kind of surprised. I was unable to get mine to clip below about 245 with contrast at 100. except that when displaying patterns on my ps3 it clips whites above 235 no matter what, actually iirc, it was closer to 233 where it clipped.


but what I found was that it's a lot harder to get grayscale perfect through 100%. this is even more true with my projector, I have the contrast on it turned down just slightly for this reason. when the 10pt controls line up perfectly(white's clip right at 100%) it's very easy to make adjustments, but I run into issues at 100%. there's usually a push I can't fix, and anything above 100% can't be adjusted at all(this shouldn't be an issue though, I don't think).


anyway, what I would do is have a look at the color clipping pattern and just make sure your colors don't clip too much before 235. with contrast at 95, and all my other settings, I've got all three colors displaying past 235, no clipping to worry about at all. if you see clipping, there's a good chance you'll 'run out of steam' with that primary when trying to fix the grayscale at 100%.


now, I'm guessing you won't notice this often, but if you're going to spend the time calibrating, drop the contrast down a couple ticks to avoid the clipping. I'd rather have a dE of 1.0 and no clipping, than dE's of .2 and enough clipping to throw off the 100% pt. if your gamma, and grayscale looks good right up to 100%(double check by looking at the grayscale ramp/step patterns), then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

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post #3143 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM
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Sorry....yeah 253 doesn't flash on the white clipping pattern.


On the color clipping pattern 249 and 251 don't flash for red. For Blue and Green it looks like 251 is barely flashing if at all.


Here is the color clipping pattern I'm using...picture is just an example...it's not MY picture.


http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/da...c_cpXgxnc.jpeg


And I may check again but it seemed like lowering contrast by three ticks threw everything off. I'd be fine with ti if it just increased errors but BT.1886 seems fairly fragile...it's easy to throw off. This is one of my few attempts to get it that didn't require huge ten point changes.
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post #3144 of 3147 Old Yesterday, 10:18 PM
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Of course that brings to mind the question: Do I even need to worry about levels that high?
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post #3145 of 3147 Old Today, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Here are my suggested settings for this display. They will produce something closer to a reference image than any of the presets and will be a good starting point for when y'all buy a meter.

Subdued room lighting
Brightness: adjust using test pattern 1 click below where level 16 shows green dithering, typically 48 or 49.
Contrast: 95
Cell light: set for comfortable long-term viewing (range for cell 12-15 will be approximately 30-35 ftL)
Sharpness: 0
Color: 55
Tint: default
Movie mode: warm 2 or warm 1. (warm 2 is closer to spec but may appear greenish at lower stimulus levels in which case use warm 1 instead)
Gamma: -1 (minimal lighting, bump up to 0 if you lose black detail or if material is not well-suited to this setting)
2 pt. White Balance if using warm 2
r offset 26
g offset 22
b offset 23
r gain 28
g gain 24
b gain 24
Color space: Custom
Red: 38 0 0
Green: 24 47 3
Blue: 0 0 45
Yellow: 47 46 5
Cyan: 27 49 51
Magenta: 41 0 49
10 pt control (leave this off if you want closer to pure power law gamma at 2.4):
Level 1: 4,4,4
Level 2: 2,2,2
Level 3: 1,1,1
others default.
Digital clear view: low is good for SD material and sub-par HD, otherwise off
Picture size: screen fit
Black optimizer: dark room
For 24p input turn cinema smooth on.
all other enhancements off

deltas for moderate room lighting:
Cell = 15-20 (set for comfortable long-term viewing, will be ~35-45 ftL)
Gamma = 0
Color = 53

deltas for bright room:
Cell = 15-20 (set for comfortable long-term viewing, will be ~45-55 ftL)
Gamma = +1
Color = 50
Black optimizer = Bright room or Auto

If you need even more light output then switch to standard mode:
Cell = 15-20 (17 on my display yields 75 ftL)
Contrast = 90 (above 90 standard mode begins clipping)
Gamma = +1
Color = 50
Color space: custom as above
Black optimizer = Bright room
I see you updated this. Did you keep the Flesh Tone at +4 or is it at default (0)?
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post #3147 of 3147 Old Today, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Of course that brings to mind the question: Do I even need to worry about levels that high?
by my understanding, no, it shouldn't matter for those high values. the 'video' range is supposed to be 16-235, so anything about that is just 'headroom' really. if your colors flash all the way to 235 for all your colors and white, you'll be fine

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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