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post #3241 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 07:25 PM
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Went out and bought a Sony Blu-Ray player to test in the chain and it gave me the same results as the Denon player, so it seems my old Panasonic is the odd one out.

Here is something new though, the tests give completely different results based on if you are playing at 1080p 60 frames vs 1080p 24 frames which is very weird, no? My Panasonic doesn't play the AVS HD disk at 24 frames (known bug) so I calibrated at 60 frames, but I can force it into 24 frames through my receiver's conversion vs pass-through.

Which is the correct one to use then if you want to calibrate for regular television as well which comes in at 720p 60 frames and 1080i 60 frames?

I did a bunch of back to back testing between the Denon and the Panasonic (didn't include the Sony once I confirmed it gave very similar results to the Denon) and here is what I got. What do you guys make of this?


Denon 60p (top) vs Panasonic 60p (bottom):











Denon 24p (top) vs Panasonic 24p (bottom):








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post #3242 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 07:35 PM
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I don't really know enough about blu-ray players to understand why it does that. Although I seem to remember my Panasonic player having profiles (Fine? Or something like that?) so maybe that is throwing it off?


Personally I only really care about Blu-ray content being accurate so I calibrate with my player and a pattern disc and then leave it at that. I'll use the same settings with my cable box but if it's off there I don't really care because it's not like a football broadcast rewards the critical viewer anyways. And it improves the picture over standard mode in any case.
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post #3243 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 07:38 PM
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The difference is just so huge between the two players, and even worse with the Denon at 60p vs 24p (the Panasonic 60p vs 24p is at least somewhat close, not a completely reversal of the gamma curve) but since the Sony player backs up the Denon results, I assume the Panasonic is bad? Weird thing is that I thought the picture looked great, aside from the color saturation issue that I was working on the CMS. To dial it in with the Denon, I'm thinking the values will be greatly different than wha they were with the Panasonic. Guess I can try to do the Denon in MOVIE mode and compare it to the Panasonic is CAL-N and see the difference in picture quality.
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post #3244 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
The difference is just so huge between the two players, and even worse with the Denon at 60p vs 24p (the Panasonic 60p vs 24p is at least somewhat close, not a completely reversal of the gamma curve) but since the Sony player backs up the Denon results, I assume the Panasonic is bad? Weird thing is that I thought the picture looked great, aside from the color saturation issue that I was working on the CMS. To dial it in with the Denon, I'm thinking the values will be greatly different than wha they were with the Panasonic. Guess I can try to do the Denon in MOVIE mode and compare it to the Panasonic is CAL-N and see the difference in picture quality.

I'm not sure it's fair to say the Panasonic is 'bad'. They are fine players and quite popular. I have one in the living room....on the F8500 I have a Sony 3100. I also like the Denon equipment I own. We're probably just missing something in the settings that varies. But I think this just goes to show that you have to consider the source and try to be as consistent as possible with your test patterns.


Since your meter is judge and jury in this case I would think your settings might be different with the Denon but the results should be similar.
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post #3245 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 07:50 PM
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Hey everyone, I was able to snag a 60" model today at BB. Delivery is 12-12-14

Question...Should I run a screen wash when I first get the TV every so often for the first hundred hours?

This is my first Plasma.

I had a 65" mits RPTV years ago and it was the thing at the time. Broke my heart to get rid of it.

I now have a Mits 73" DLP in my living room ( 3 1/2 years old) and just changed the bulb. Looks brand new now (Grin) and staying in living room.

Had a 40" LCD in bedroom but gave it away..couldn't stand the picture..so fake looking.

So Plasma will go in bedroom. I'm new to plasma so any info would be helpful.

Thanks

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post #3246 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rain View Post
Hey everyone, I was able to snag a 60" model today at BB. Delivery is 12-12-14

Question...Should I run a screen wash when I first get the TV every so often for the first hundred hours?

This is my first Plasma.

I had a 65" mits RPTV years ago and it was the thing at the time. Broke my heart to get rid of it.

I now have a Mits 73" DLP in my living room ( 3 1/2 years old) and just changed the bulb. Looks brand new now (Grin) and staying in living room.

Had a 40" LCD in bedroom but gave it away..couldn't stand the picture..so fake looking.

So Plasma will go in bedroom. I'm new to plasma so any info would be helpful.

Thanks

I would just avoid static logos for the first couple of hundred hours if you can. Or watch for any IR they might cause and then stop watching that channel until it fades again (in my experience with some excessive use of the menus it always fades but I've never tried to REALLY cook it in). Slides are not needed. If you watch letter boxed or 4:3 content during the first two hundred try to watch the same amount of full screen content to offset it a bit. You won't have to do this forever but must folks think it pays to be cautious until the panel breaks in a bit.
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post #3247 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 08:54 PM
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Presets

Can different settings be locked in so I can alternative from one to another? If so, how would I accomplish that?
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post #3248 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I would just avoid static logos for the first couple of hundred hours if you can. Or watch for any IR they might cause and then stop watching that channel until it fades again (in my experience with some excessive use of the menus it always fades but I've never tried to REALLY cook it in). Slides are not needed. If you watch letter boxed or 4:3 content during the first two hundred try to watch the same amount of full screen content to offset it a bit. You won't have to do this forever but must folks think it pays to be cautious until the panel breaks in a bit.
Thanks AMartin56 ..appreciate your help .

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post #3249 of 3631 Old 12-01-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post


Since your meter is judge and jury in this case I would think your settings might be different with the Denon but the results should be similar.
I did a quick setup with the Denon using the APL Large pattern and got it pretty dialed in, but this required me to set the Gamma at +1 otherwise it would test to high. In real world testing however, 0 looks much better as +1 looks washed out. The CAL-N settings (dialed in with the Panasonic) still look better to my eye, colors are more saturated and it has more pop...seems to have a lot more contrast to the eye and the test results seem to back that up. I was getting 15,xxx:1 before and now it's 5,xxx:1, plus my 0% black level went from 0.011 to 0.031. I need to see if a different pattern will test better as APL Large wasn't good with the Panasonic either.

On another note...WOW @ the sound of the Denon player! I had no idea what I was missing! I thought the Panasonic sounded good, I don't recall exactly what the display showed on my receiver but it definitely didn't say DTS-HD like the Denon now says. It's a huge difference to my ears.

With gamma at +1...




With gamma at 0...
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post #3250 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
Went out and bought a Sony Blu-Ray player to test in the chain and it gave me the same results as the Denon player, so it seems my old Panasonic is the odd one out.

Here is something new though, the tests give completely different results based on if you are playing at 1080p 60 frames vs 1080p 24 frames which is very weird, no? My Panasonic doesn't play the AVS HD disk at 24 frames (known bug) so I calibrated at 60 frames, but I can force it into 24 frames through my receiver's conversion vs pass-through.

Which is the correct one to use then if you want to calibrate for regular television as well which comes in at 720p 60 frames and 1080i 60 frames?

I did a bunch of back to back testing between the Denon and the Panasonic (didn't include the Sony once I confirmed it gave very similar results to the Denon) and here is what I got. What do you guys make of this?
just thoughts, i'm not POSITIVE about any of this.

-my old dvd players included settings i could change. maybe there's something like that on the panasonic?
-do you have cinema smooth enabled? i believe it was shown that CS changes stuff, not quite enough warrant a new calibration for most ppl, but definitely enough to measure. since CS would only be active with 24p content, that could be why you're seeing a difference

i'd probably do a new calibration with the denon bluray player. seems like it's the more accurate of the two. but save your settings before you start, just in case it turns out to not look good with real content.

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post #3251 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 02:50 AM
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@fierce_gt you were absolutely right, the problem was actually Cinema Smooth. It actually makes a huge difference, at least in testing, not sure how much difference I can tell in real world viewing.

Here are the results of Cinema Smooth off vs on...







With Cinema Smooth off, both 60 frames and 24 frames test the same, so that isn't an issue any more.
I was able to get good results using the Windows patterns on AVS HD, pretty identical test results to what I got with the Panasonic but the picture is drastically different on the screen.

I actually have a lower brightness setting yet the picture on the screen is brighter (184 cd/m2 vs 166 cd/m2) but also more washed out. It's probably how it's supposed to look but I haven't decided if I like it yet. In comparison to my old settings, the previous settings definitely crush blacks (again even though that was at a brightness of 49 and the new settings are 47). Switching between a paused picture, I can see more details in the blacks and in shadows with the new settings. A good example is on the Disney WOW disk, in the Beginners section under Color, there is a fruit stand still image. With the old setting, the doorways on each side are basically black, there is a very very slight trace that there are actually things inside the doorways. With the new settings, you can clearly see objects in the doorways. So again that's probably how it's supposed to look, but it's lacking "pop" compared to the old settings which has a more contrasty look, maybe something similar to Dynamic Contrast Low.

The Color Space on Auto with a color setting of 57 is actually pretty close to what it should be if I'm looking at the chart right, can you guys confirm? Doesn't really seem to need much if any adjustment.


One other thing I noted, and I believe this is called dithering , but I always noticed a green/blue "snow" in black areas of the screen up close. From further away, it wasn't really noticeable. Setting the brightness to 47 completely gets rid of it and it's a smooth black background, but 48+ gets it right back. Has anyone else noticed this? Also seems source specific as with DirecTV content, I need to go down to a brightness of 41 to get rid of it.

It actually came out pretty good in a close up photo...first photo is brightness 48 and second is brightness 47.



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post #3252 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
@fierce_gt

The Color Space on Auto with a color setting of 57 is actually pretty close to what it should be if I'm looking at the chart right, can you guys confirm? Doesn't really seem to need much if any adjustment.
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I was surprised that the native color checker measures better than auto. Even though the saturation x,y looks worse, the auto selection luminances throw it off.
Color performance has three dimensions and the CIE graph only shows you two of them so you have to look at the dE values to make that assessment. The auto mode luminance values may be way off, which can not be seen on the CIE graph.
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post #3253 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 05:45 AM
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Here are the screenshots from Color Space: Auto - Color: 57 of the luminance and CIE. Highest dE is 0.9, average is 0.47.
What do you think?


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post #3254 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 06:31 AM
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I meant color luminance. What are the avg/max dEs in the red and green saturation pages as well as delta luminaces
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post #3255 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 10:20 AM
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Ah ok, sorry about that. Yeah looks like red is quite a bit off here, green isn't as bad.



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post #3256 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
Ah ok, sorry about that. Yeah looks like red is quite a bit off here, green isn't as bad.
yes, that's what I meant when I said earlier that even though the native color space x,y locations don't line up as well, from a perceptual standpoint (deltaE) you'll get better performance from native because the luminances are much closer to spec.
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post #3257 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 10:43 AM
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I need a little help as to my tv looks great on movies and stuff. But on cartoon and such shows don't look as great as my old pn4300 plasma.

Does anyone have really clear and detailed picture settings for dynamic as I hate movie mode. There's a bit of grey in dynamic mode that just wasn't there before on default dynamic settings on the pn4300 plasma that is tv has on dynamic and it washes out the picture. Anyone with good dynamic picture settings for clear bright picture? Thanks
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post #3258 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
yes, that's what I meant when I said earlier that even though the native color space x,y locations don't line up as well, from a perceptual standpoint (deltaE) you'll get better performance from native because the luminances are much closer to spec.
I swore after last night I was done, spending way too much time tinkering with this.
I think Im going to go back in one last time to fix the greyscale because after I moved color from 52 to 57, it changed a bit @ 80% and 90%. I've settled that if it's 0.9 or lower, I'm ok with it, but that 1.4 @ 80% seems a bit high. I'll do a color test also with Native out of curiosity.

Color @ 52 Auto


Color @ 57 Auto

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post #3259 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Feared4life View Post
I need a little help as to my tv looks great on movies and stuff. But on cartoon and such shows don't look as great as my old pn4300 plasma.

Does anyone have really clear and detailed picture settings for dynamic as I hate movie mode. There's a bit of grey in dynamic mode that just wasn't there before on default dynamic settings on the pn4300 plasma that is tv has on dynamic and it washes out the picture. Anyone with good dynamic picture settings for clear bright picture? Thanks
I think everyone is going to agree that Dynamic mode needs to be off. It takes a little getting used to MOVIE mode but if you get it dialed in correctly, it looks better than any other mode. Unfortunately I personally don't think there is any way to really set it without doing at least a DIY calibration. I had zero luck with using other people's settings.
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post #3260 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 11:50 AM
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Well can anybody recommend good movie mode settings for me with a bright clear picture for gaming and movies. The best that make the tv stand out.
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post #3261 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Feared4life View Post
Well can anybody recommend good movie mode settings for me with a bright clear picture for gaming and movies. The best that make the tv stand out.
see if you can find somebody's 'standard' mode calibration. it should give you the extra brightness you're looking for without totally wrecking the movie viewing experience.

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post #3262 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 12:28 PM
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Have any of the recent calibrators tried doing an 8500 calibration for 3D mode? I remember when this thread got started, there were discussions about calibrating the 8500 for 3D movies, but I haven't seen any recent discusssions for 3D calibration....is this because not many are viewing 3D movies? I think there's a separate area of 8500 memory reserved for 3D modes/settings (when 3D is activated)....at least that's what I remember some time ago.
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post #3263 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 12:36 PM
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Have any of the recent calibrators tried doing an 8500 calibration for 3D mode? I remember when this thread got started, there were discussions about calibrating the 8500 for 3D movies, but I haven't seen any recent discusssions for 3D calibration....is this because not many are viewing 3D movies? I think there's a separate area of 8500 memory reserved for 3D modes/settings (when 3D is activated)....at least that's what I remember some time ago.
I believe you're correct, when I had mine calibrated he calibrated for three modes; CAL-NIGHT, CAL-DAY and 3D. I have not even tried the 3D mode as I only recently got a 3D-capable BDP.
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post #3264 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 12:48 PM
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I believe you're correct, when I had mine calibrated he calibrated for three modes; CAL-NIGHT, CAL-DAY and 3D. I have not even tried the 3D mode as I only recently got a 3D-capable BDP.
As a DIYer I haven't done it because compared to a 2D calibration there appears to be very little info out there pertaining to how to do it. And if I understand correctly contact mode can't be used so that sounds like a huge PITA. Which I would attempt for say a projector, but since I personally see 3D as a gimmick the rewards just aren't there for me.
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post #3265 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
As a DIYer I haven't done it because compared to a 2D calibration there appears to be very little info out there pertaining to how to do it. And if I understand correctly contact mode can't be used so that sounds like a huge PITA. Which I would attempt for say a projector, but since I personally see 3D as a gimmick the rewards just aren't there for me.
When they calibrated mine I think he just taped one lens of the 3d glasses to the meter and calibrated as usual.

I watch 3d content occasionally and I am very pleased with the results
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post #3266 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
As a DIYer I haven't done it because compared to a 2D calibration there appears to be very little info out there pertaining to how to do it. And if I understand correctly contact mode can't be used so that sounds like a huge PITA. Which I would attempt for say a projector, but since I personally see 3D as a gimmick the rewards just aren't there for me.
I didn't see how it was done so I can't add anything as far as "how-to".
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post #3267 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feared4life View Post
Well can anybody recommend good movie mode settings for me with a bright clear picture for gaming and movies. The best that make the tv stand out.
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
see if you can find somebody's 'standard' mode calibration. it should give you the extra brightness you're looking for without totally wrecking the movie viewing experience.
Try these, it's what I have setup as my Sports mode, thought it looks pretty good with any TV content for day time viewing. It's very bright, measured around 235 cd/m2 (68fL).

Picture Mode: Standard
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 49
Sharpness: 20
Color: 52
Tint: R51
Screen Size: Screen Fit
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Black Tone: Off
Flesh Tone: 0
Color Space: Auto
Gamma: -1

White Balance
R-Offset: 30
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 7
R-Gain: 39
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 9
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^ Holy shades-on Batman!
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post #3269 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 09:38 PM
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Wrapped up my calibrating a bit earlier...that's it, done, meter put away...done with this!

I ended up with 3 different settings, STANDARD for sports, MOVIE which is what it "should look like", and CAL-N which is a more dynamic, saturated picture. In the end, I kind of prefer the CAL-N over the proper MOVIE. The picture has a lot more depth, almost like objects have a drop shadow, There is some black crushing but the rich colors and depth make up for it. You definitely miss some details though, for example in a sample I viewed on the WOW disk, there was a night scene in a cartoon and the moon in MOVIE mode had a nice soft glow around it. In CAL-N, there was no glow at all, just a round share edge circle.

Here are the settings for each and the HCFR graphs for the calibrated MOVIE mode.












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post #3270 of 3631 Old 12-02-2014, 09:45 PM
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One other thing I wanted to mention is that you really get an appreciation for how good this TV is going through this process.
After I was done, I went to calibrate the Samsung B6000 LED we have in the bedroom and wow, basically impossible to calibrate. It has no 10pt adjustments and while the 2pt White Balance is adjustable, the TV is so bad that even at extremes of literally +50 red, +50 green, -50 blue, there was still too much blue being measured...at least in STANDARD MODE. MOVIE was somewhat adjustable after using Warm3 but still far from anything the F8500 can do, while I was able to get 30% & 70% at under 1 dE, the rest were all the way up to 5 dE with nothing I could do about it. In real world viewing though, it looks pretty good however, though the flash lighting is beyond terrible.
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