F8500 Recommended Settings Thread..... - Page 118 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:35 PM
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I just took delivery of an 8500 64 inch and of course I am worried about getting the best pic through suggested settings. I would like to know if everyone is running a break in disc as we did with our kuros, and secondly should I worry about two sticky pixels they actually work if I touch the screen, really weird but not horrible. Is there suggested settings for a fairly bright room pre calibration I know they are in these threads but they have all gotten very long and requires a LOT of reading . Thanks sawz.
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:56 PM
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Another example:


Original "dark room" calibration:


New "room with one light on" calibration:
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:17 PM
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^

The skin tone on that anchorman looks too orangish to me. Does anybody in real life look like they were stuck in a tanning bed for half a day? I see it in his hands too, but if you prefer that kind of flesh tone, by all means stick with it.
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawzalot View Post
I just took delivery of an 8500 64 inch and of course I am worried about getting the best pic through suggested settings. I would like to know if everyone is running a break in disc as we did with our kuros, and secondly should I worry about two sticky pixels they actually work if I touch the screen, really weird but not horrible. Is there suggested settings for a fairly bright room pre calibration I know they are in these threads but they have all gotten very long and requires a LOT of reading . Thanks sawz.
These may work for you since they are calibrated for a lighted room... but some have said on this thread that settings don't transfer well from one 8500 to another. Mine is a 60 incher.
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
^

The skin tone on that anchorman looks too orangish to me. Does anybody in real life look like they were stuck in a tanning bed for half a day? I see it in his hands too, but if you prefer that kind of flesh tone, by all means stick with it.
That's due to a combo of the source material and possibly the camera... I was trying to show the improvement in gamma. The dE's are good: Average dE: 1.33, Max 2.94[5B], worst 10%: 2.40

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Old 12-21-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
I'm pretty sure that's due to a combo of the source material and the camera... I was trying to show the improvement in gamma. The dE's are good: Average dE: 1.33, Max 2.94[5B], worst 10%: 2.40
I thought it was because you have flesh tone set at 10 when almost every other calibration I've seen posted on this forum for the past 18 months has flesh tone set at 0. White balance values near 50? And color near 60? A bit on the saturated side, I'd say.

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Old 12-21-2014, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
These may work for you since they are calibrated for a lighted room... but some have said on this thread that settings don't transfer well from one 8500 to another. Mine is a 60 incher.
What drove the white balance controls so high? I've never seen a calibration with any of them higher than 30 or so.
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
I thought it was because you have flesh tone set at 10 when almost every other calibration I've seen posted on this forum for the past 18 months has flesh tone set at 0.
No, the flesh tone setting is good, the dE's do not lie :-)

It's hard to get a good photo. This is pretty accurate as to what the TV really looks like in person:
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
What drove the white balance controls so high? I've never seen a calibration with any of them higher than 30 or so.
I had to push the 2 point white balance because the minimum black level was 0.12, in order to get the gamma points matched properly. With the higher black level, and using the BT.1886 gamma calculation which takes that into account, the rest of the curve had to be pushed brighter. The gray scale dE is Average: 0.36, Max: 0.74

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Old 12-21-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
I had to push the 2 point white balance because the minimum black level was 0.12, in order to get the gamma points matched properly. With the higher black level, and using the BT.1886 gamma calculation which takes that into account, the rest of the curve had to be pushed brighter. The gray scale dE is Average: 0.36, Max: 0.74
Just seems odd. I also use BT.1886 and my gamma lines up just fine without leaning on the two point white balance controls so hard. But then again I'm not sure what you mean my 'minimum black level 0.12' either.
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
No, the flesh tone setting is good, the dE's do not lie :-)

It's hard to get a good photo. This is pretty accurate as to what the TV really looks like in person:
That's a more accurate looking picture/representation in the flesh tones. The anchorman photo wasn't doing your calibration any justice.
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Just seems odd. I also use BT.1886 and my gamma lines up just fine without leaning on the two point white balance controls so hard. But then again I'm not sure what you mean my 'minimum black level 0.12' either.
"Minimum black level 0.12" is my measured black level at IRE 0 in a room with a light on. I'm calibrating by placing my i1 Display Pro about 6 inches in front of the TV, allowing ambient light to be part of the measurement, since that's closer to what my eyes see.

Like you, when I measured by resting the i1 on the front of the screen, I got a minimum black level of 0.010 - 10 times lower. At that minimum black level, the gamma curve "lines up" for me too without pushing the white balance.

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Old 12-21-2014, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
"Minimum black level 0.12" is my measured black level at IRE 0 in a room with a light on. I'm calibrating by placing my i1 Display Pro about 6 inches in front of the TV, allowing ambient light to be part of the measurement, since that's closer to what my eyes see.

Like you, when I measured by resting the i1 on the front of the screen, I got a minimum black level of 0.010 - 10 times lower. At that minimum black level, the gamma curve "lines up" for me too without pushing the white balance.
I'd be curious to hear from the experts on this one. I've seen info on these boards suggesting that contact mode with the iD3 on a plasma is a bad idea due to the heat the panel emits, but I've never really had a problem from what I can tell. And if I want to calibrate for a bright room I still use contact mode and just up the peak brightness and chose a 'brighter' gamma target. This seems to work well so I wouldn't consider 'moving the meter off the display to account for ambient light'. I would be interested in opinions on if the two approaches are equally valid or if one approach is more common than the other. For the record I don't see much of a shadow detail difference in the pictures that have been posted so to me it would come down to preference...Other than the fact that the high white balance control settings do seem a bit strange to me.
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Old 12-21-2014, 08:21 PM
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i don't know one way or the other, but when i look at the black level test pattern, if i can see 17, 18 flash, then i don't think you need to compensate for ambient light hitting the screen. and when i turn every light to 100%, i can still see those levels flash.

my understanding(which could be wrong) is that the bt1886 compensates for 'black' not being black. if you have a higher MLL, it's almost like it crushes blacks. instead of black being .00ftl, and 5% being .1ftl(or whatever it is) you end up with black being .09 and 5% is still .1, so there's almost no difference between the two, and all the detail in 5% and under is completely lost.

if you have a black level that's stupidly high(like what you get when you measure the light reflected off the screen) it's going to go crazy trying to compensate for this. probably to an error, if i had to guess.

bottom line, i would, and have used contact mode, and simply aimed for a higher peak luminance. then, i watch content, and since it looked good, i left it alone.

but i am certainly no expert. i just made a different assumption than you, and it seems to have worked out.

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Old 12-21-2014, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I'd be curious to hear from the experts on this one. I've seen info on these boards suggesting that contact mode with the iD3 on a plasma is a bad idea due to the heat the panel emits, but I've never really had a problem from what I can tell. And if I want to calibrate for a bright room I still use contact mode and just up the peak brightness and chose a 'brighter' gamma target. This seems to work well so I wouldn't consider 'moving the meter off the display to account for ambient light'. I would be interested in opinions on if the two approaches are equally valid or if one approach is more common than the other. For the record I don't see much of a shadow detail difference in the pictures that have been posted so to me it would come down to preference...Other than the fact that the high white balance control settings do seem a bit strange to me.
You don't need an expert, you can try it for yourself. It does make a difference in what shadow detail you can easily see.

The rationale is that if there is ambient light in the room, it will bounce off the screen and increase the minimum level of black of the screen. BT.1886 was developed to handle differing black levels - see http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/BT.1886.pdf where it says:
Quote:
4. How is BT.1886 different from previous gamma functions?
Previous gamma functions were based on a perfect black of zero luminance that few devices can actually achieve. Unlike these older functions, BT.1886 takes into account the performance of a device at its blackest level.

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Old 12-21-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
bottom line, i would, and have used contact mode, and simply aimed for a higher peak luminance. then, i watch content, and since it looked good, i left it alone.
By all means, if you're happy and you know it pay me no mind

I think this approach is interesting and has promise.

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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
my understanding(which could be wrong) is that the bt1886 compensates for 'black' not being black. if you have a higher MLL, it's almost like it crushes blacks. instead of black being .00ftl, and 5% being .1ftl(or whatever it is) you end up with black being .09 and 5% is still .1, so there's almost no difference between the two, and all the detail in 5% and under is completely lost.

if you have a black level that's stupidly high(like what you get when you measure the light reflected off the screen) it's going to go crazy trying to compensate for this. probably to an error, if i had to guess.
BT.1886 doesn't crush blacks. BT.1886 is specifically designed to compensate when there aren't good black levels. See http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/BT.1886.pdf section 4. In your example the 5% reading would have to be higher to match the gamma curve. That's why I had to increase the white balance controls.

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Old 12-21-2014, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
By all means, if you're happy and you know it pay me no mind

I think this approach is interesting and has promise.



BT.1886 doesn't crush blacks. BT.1886 is specifically designed to compensate when there aren't good black levels. See http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/BT.1886.pdf section 4. In your example the 5% reading would have to be higher to match the gamma curve. That's why I had to increase the white balance controls.
it's not exactly the same as crushing blacks, but what I was saying is that bt1886 PREVENTS 'crushing blacks'. I'm just worried that anything taken to the extreme creates it's own issues. it's one thing to have poor blacks and lose some shadow detail, its another to have a completely washed out image because everything has been adjusted too much(not sure if that's the case or not though).


again, I'm no expert, and the idea seems interesting. but so far I've seen you post that it's not working(although, from your last post, it seems that's not the case. my first post was made with the assumption you were troubleshooting), so that's why I'm wondering if it's useful or not. then again, I'm one of those simple ppl that thinks if the problem is the room is too bright, you dim the lights

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Old 12-22-2014, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
No, the flesh tone setting is good, the dE's do not lie :-)
They lie all the time.

One of the main weaknesses for entheusiast is that they aren't having their colorimeter profiled off of a reference grade spectro. I have three i1d3s that all under read the color red on plasmas. Two of them are new out of the box. When not corrected (profiled off of a jeti 1211), I'd be adding too much red and still have great looking charts that don't transfer into a quality picture. What you may be doing is influencing the readings by adding red with the ambient light such that you are not over correcting but there is no way of know just how far off you really are.
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Old 12-22-2014, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
You don't need an expert, you can try it for yourself. It does make a difference in what shadow detail you can easily see.

The rationale is that if there is ambient light in the room, it will bounce off the screen and increase the minimum level of black of the screen. BT.1886 was developed to handle differing black levels - see http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/BT.1886.pdf where it says:


I'm sure I could try it myself but I don't see the point. Maybe I should just stop beating around the bush and say that I don't like the idea of calibrating in non-contact mode with ambient lighting on. Especially when doing so results in taking what most reviews describe as a fairly accurate display out of the box and slamming the white balance controls to their extremes. With hobbyist equipment I think it would be better to remove variables rather than introduce them. Especially when it is so easy to get good results with room lighting by calibrating normally and just adjusting your targets to account for what your viewing conditions will be.


So I guess to answer your previous question I like the first contact mode calibration better. But if it is too dark for your room lighting I would suggest redoing it in contact mode and adding more peak white brightness and trying a different gamma target. My two cents.
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:53 AM
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I hope that since this thread will be at close to 4k in posts (get it) in a couple weeks, I would like to reiterate that any talk about settings should be concise and terse as possible, this thread is becoming bloated with people over posting, you are actually not helping the thread by over saturating it with fretting over details that 99.9 over of the forum don't care about.

Seriously, before you post think about if this is actually helping, also I have not seen anyone mention that particular shows have different light set ups for the show, different production monitors, prefer certain color pallettes, and the DP might gel the lights a certain shade for effect, and then in Digital Intermediate it might be edited to the color tone the show is going after, so its MORE about your preference, trying to watch WARM 2 settings on some tv shows basically MAKES everything tinted yellow and it looks like **** (sorry for my lack of a better phrase but it does) and that is after custom calibration with both 2 point and 10 point white balance settings punched in. Family Guy for example is not going to be run on warm 2, and even a show like The Office is very hard to dial in because any change to the color tone significantly changes the overall picture. Honestly I dialed in Pie and Chips settings ( the first ones since no one will post the revised ones as I guess they don't exist and his link is incorrect on forum page 8, also I believe and link in sig is non existent, would love for someone to post those). I am essentially saying you are going to have to get used to setting different modes for certain shows and maybe to the point where any time you are going to sit down for an extended viewing, considering you are just sitting on your butt you mine as well change the color tone, or check the settings almost like protocol.
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Old 12-22-2014, 09:11 AM
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I have never seen either a professional or a diyer calibrate with ambient light in the mix, just my 2 cents.

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Old 12-22-2014, 09:29 AM
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VE Shootout 2014 Calibration Settings?

Were the pn64f8500 Value Electronic's 2014 calibration settings ever posted online anywhere? I've tried Google and AVS searches and haven't come up with anything yet.

I found the 2013 calibration settings, but I'm curious to see how the two different years compare.

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Old 12-22-2014, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynosureKane View Post
I hope that since this thread will be at close to 4k in posts (get it) in a couple weeks, I would like to reiterate that any talk about settings should be concise and terse as possible, this thread is becoming bloated with people over posting, you are actually not helping the thread by over saturating it with fretting over details that 99.9 over of the forum don't care about.

Seriously, before you post think about if this is actually helping, also I have not seen anyone mention that particular shows have different light set ups for the show, different production monitors, prefer certain color pallettes, and the DP might gel the lights a certain shade for effect, and then in Digital Intermediate it might be edited to the color tone the show is going after, so its MORE about your preference, trying to watch WARM 2 settings on some tv shows basically MAKES everything tinted yellow and it looks like **** (sorry for my lack of a better phrase but it does) and that is after custom calibration with both 2 point and 10 point white balance settings punched in. Family Guy for example is not going to be run on warm 2, and even a show like The Office is very hard to dial in because any change to the color tone significantly changes the overall picture. Honestly I dialed in Pie and Chips settings ( the first ones since no one will post the revised ones as I guess they don't exist and his link is incorrect on forum page 8, also I believe and link in sig is non existent, would love for someone to post those). I am essentially saying you are going to have to get used to setting different modes for certain shows and maybe to the point where any time you are going to sit down for an extended viewing, considering you are just sitting on your butt you mine as well change the color tone, or check the settings almost like protocol.
thanks for posting your calibration settings
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:08 AM
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IHonestly I dialed in Pie and Chips settings ( the first ones since no one will post the revised ones as I guess they don't exist and his link is incorrect on forum page 8, also I believe and link in sig is non existent, would love for someone to post those).
You can D/L P&C from my sig's "potentially useful" link and selecting PieAndChipsCalibratedSettingsPN51F8500
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Old 12-22-2014, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
They lie all the time.

One of the main weaknesses for entheusiast is that they aren't having their colorimeter profiled off of a reference grade spectro. I have three i1d3s that all under read the color red on plasmas. Two of them are new out of the box. When not corrected (profiled off of a jeti 1211), I'd be adding too much red and still have great looking charts that don't transfer into a quality picture. What you may be doing is influencing the readings by adding red with the ambient light such that you are not over correcting but there is no way of know just how far off you really are.
There's no reason to believe that my id3 is significantly "off". Furthermore, the color readings (and therefore the CMS settings) are substantially the same whether reading directly from the screen or from 6 inches in front. It's only the BT.1886 gamma that must be adjusted due to the higher MLL. There, at lower brightness readings, the 10pt white balance can be used to compensate for any color tint added by the ambient light (a good thing).

For a reality check as to how accurate the calibration is, I have below a photo taken of my Retina Macbook Pro for comparison against a photo of the PN60F8500. I realize these may look too orange or red, but that's an artifact of my photography. Both photos were taken with identical manual settings of the camera's white balance, shutter speed, etc. The Retina MBP is known to have a very color accurate screen, and the image is substantially the same on the TV. If anything, the rMBP has slightly more of a magenta tint.

Retina MBP:


PN60F8500:
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Samsung PN60F8500, TiVo Roamio, ASRock Vision 3D HTPC, Chromecast

Last edited by WPWoodJr; 12-22-2014 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 12-22-2014, 06:37 PM
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Why show us comparison pictures when you admit they aren't representative of what the displays look like due to 'your photography'?

And I don't think you will get a good response here if you' profile ' your meter with a visual comparison against a' known to be accurate ' laptop.

I'm just a newbie DIY' er but unlike you I'm willing to admit that my cheap equipment results in 'best effort' rather than 100% accuracy. Claiming otherwise is a fool's errand.
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Old 12-22-2014, 07:45 PM
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if the color doesn't change, then so what. both those pics do look similar, and actually on my display they look alright.

what i'm curious about is the gamma and how it's affecting shadow details. i'm not going to stand up here and preach something i don't know about, it's just that i've never heard it recommended to try and compensate for room lighting like this. and since i think my calibrations look good without doing it, i'm curious to see what's different. if there's no difference, it's a waste of time, haha. but if there is a difference, it might be useful info.

for example, a couple days ago i was calibrating a friends tv, it was an edgelit LED, and i didn't really know the ins and outs of the tv. so when i measured an MLL of .3ftl it didn't seem odd to me. and the bt1886 gamma was REALLY curved. i ended up not trying to match it exactly, because it was so extreme i just didn't think it would work. in the end, i was able to reduce the MLL to a much more respectable level, and it didn't really matter, but still. i'm not going to turn away more information. the worst it can do is confirm what i already think. but it could teach me something new that i never would have learned otherwise.

so, i'd be curious to see how a dark scene compares. I've attached a few examples of screen captures i've used to evaluate my own display.
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Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
if the color doesn't change, then so what. both those pics do look similar, and actually on my display they look alright.

what i'm curious about is the gamma and how it's affecting shadow details. ... i'm curious to see what's different. if there's no difference, it's a waste of time, haha. but if there is a difference, it might be useful info.

so, i'd be curious to see how a dark scene compares. I've attached a few examples of screen captures i've used to evaluate my own display.
Post 3506 is where he showed contact, non-contact pic differences.

Last edited by DanF8500; 12-22-2014 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:19 PM
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CynosureKane isn't going to like where this thread is going...
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:21 PM
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CynosureKane isn't going to like where this thread is going...
He won't like this reply either....
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