F8500 Recommended Settings Thread..... - Page 127 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3781 of 4133 Old 01-03-2015, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Still confused what an 80% white calibration is. What exactly is the step to achieve this?
Eric, the 80% white calibration refers to calibrating the probe (meter, sensor) when beginning an HCFR session.

Please try this:

Unplug probe (meter, sensor) from pc.
Close HCFR.
Plug probe into pc.
Open HCFR, select File, New.
Select DVD Manual.
Select both i1DisplayPro & Do not use meter correction file.
In Argyll Sensor menu, select "Calibrate Meter".
Bring up an 80% (white) window from the AVS disc.
Ensure meter rests at center of 80% window.
Follow HCFR prompts.
After meter calibration HCFR will return the panel's refresh rate. of ~59.94 Hz. Your probe is now synched with the panel.
Hit OK and begin your panel calibration workflow.
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post #3782 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 02:07 AM
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completed everything but color... pretty happy with the charts.... especially the bt. 1886 gamma curve. attached images.

I switched over to the color disk and am soooo lost. Can someone give me the CMS color guide for noobs?
what's up with the .025cd/m2 MLL? guessing you do not have black optimizer turned on? that's at least double what it should be at. and unfortunately, that's making your target gamma pretty different. if you've not going to use BO, then no worries. but i'd turn it on, get the lower black level, and touch up the gamma(it likely won't have the second curve at 90% anymore).

as for CMS, here's what i found to work:

-turn on the cms(select custom)
-run your grayscale/gamma and make sure they are accurate
-select rec709/75% under references
-run the primaries/secondaries measure using the 75% saturation slides from the saturations folder, and the 100% white slide from the colors folder
-now go into your CMS, and look at each color on HCFR one at a time. while doing this, look at the numbers, not the pretty CIE chart. the graph on the bottom left will tell you what values need to be adjusted. SEE NOTE BELOW!!
-so after you've done each color at 75%, and the dE's are low(should be able to get under 1.0 no problem), go back into references and select the normal rec709(your dE's will now likely be in the teens, don't worry, that'll get fixed in the next step)
-re-run the primaries/secondaries measure, use the patterns found in the colors folder(the dE's will still likely be higher than before, but hopefully under 3.0)
-run the saturation sweeps. i like to do one color at a time first
-after you run the sweep for each color, have a look at the dE's, focus on the values 25-75%. adjust the cms controls to see if you can improve the dE's slightly. you shouldn't have to make large changes at this point, likely only 1-2ticks before things will start getting worse instead of better. SEE NOTE #2
-after going through all colors, run the primaries/secondaries measure, and full saturation sweeps one more time to confirm nothing has changed.
-if dE's are mostly under 1.0 in the 25-75% range, and under 3.0 at 0% or 100%, that's about as good as anybody has gotten so far, so relax, and enjoy.

NOTE:
pay attention to the delta luminance values(you may do this after if you want, but doing it while measuring 75% values might save you some time). if the delta luminance is extremely high(+) when your x,y lines up well(the dot is inside the box on the CIE chart), then you want to increase the color setting in your basic controls. obviously after increasing color, you will have to adjust the values in the cms(reduce them) to bring the 'dot' back inside the 'box'. but now, the delta luminace should be lower than it was. don't worry about getting it right at 0 right now, cause the other saturation points will be different unfortunately. i only suggest looking at this now because with color at 50, i had delta luminace values of like +30! bring it down to single digit values, and your dE's should be easier to keep under 2.0. oh, and if that wasn't enough, the menu will affect the readings. so as you're adjusting the RGB values, make sure you close the menu, and run another quick measure before moving on. you obviously want the lowest dE's with the menu off, as that's how you'll be watching content

if in doubt, somewhere between 53-55 seems like a safe place to start. the higher the setting, the less vivid and cartoony the color will be AFTER adjusting the CMS.

NOTE #2 :
again, i would take a quick look at the delta luminance numbers. if ALL of them are very plus, you may need to increase color, and redo the cms adjustments. each color will be a little different, so don't run red saturations, and if they are all +5, panic and raise color, cause chances are when you get around to green, it's going to be -5 after that. better at this point to run all the colors(at least primaries) before deciding if color should be adjust further. i've found that a slightly + delta luminance is less bothering than a slightly - delta luminace. so i would keep color at a setting that prevents any one primary from going too negative
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post #3783 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
completed everything but color... pretty happy with the charts.... especially the bt. 1886 gamma curve. attached images.

I switched over to the color disk and am soooo lost. Can someone give me the CMS color guide for noobs?
what's up with the .025cd/m2 MLL? guessing you do not have black optimizer turned on? that's at least double what it should be at. and unfortunately, that's making your target gamma pretty different. if you've not going to use BO, then no worries. but i'd turn it on, get the lower black level, and touch up the gamma(it likely won't have the second curve at 90% anymore).

as for CMS, here's what i found to work:

-turn on the cms(select custom)
-run your grayscale/gamma and make sure they are accurate
-select rec709/75% under references
-run the primaries/secondaries measure using the 75% saturation slides from the saturations folder, and the 100% white slide from the colors folder
-now go into your CMS, and look at each color on HCFR one at a time. while doing this, look at the numbers, not the pretty CIE chart. the graph on the bottom left will tell you what values need to be adjusted. SEE NOTE BELOW!!
-so after you've done each color at 75%, and the dE's are low(should be able to get under 1.0 no problem), go back into references and select the normal rec709(your dE's will now likely be in the teens, don't worry, that'll get fixed in the next step)
-re-run the primaries/secondaries measure, use the patterns found in the colors folder(the dE's will still likely be higher than before, but hopefully under 3.0)
-run the saturation sweeps. i like to do one color at a time first
-after you run the sweep for each color, have a look at the dE's, focus on the values 25-75%. adjust the cms controls to see if you can improve the dE's slightly. you shouldn't have to make large changes at this point, likely only 1-2ticks before things will start getting worse instead of better. SEE NOTE #2
-after going through all colors, run the primaries/secondaries measure, and full saturation sweeps one more time to confirm nothing has changed.
-if dE's are mostly under 1.0 in the 25-75% range, and under 3.0 at 0% or 100%, that's about as good as anybody has gotten so far, so relax, and enjoy.

NOTE:
pay attention to the delta luminance values(you may do this after if you want, but doing it while measuring 75% values might save you some time). if the delta luminance is extremely high(+) when your x,y lines up well(the dot is inside the box on the CIE chart), then you want to increase the color setting in your basic controls. obviously after increasing color, you will have to adjust the values in the cms(reduce them) to bring the 'dot' back inside the 'box'. but now, the delta luminace should be lower than it was. don't worry about getting it right at 0 right now, cause the other saturation points will be different unfortunately. i only suggest looking at this now because with color at 50, i had delta luminace values of like +30! bring it down to single digit values, and your dE's should be easier to keep under 2.0. oh, and if that wasn't enough, the menu will affect the readings. so as you're adjusting the RGB values, make sure you close the menu, and run another quick measure before moving on. you obviously want the lowest dE's with the menu off, as that's how you'll be watching content

if in doubt, somewhere between 53-55 seems like a safe place to start. the higher the setting, the less vivid and cartoony the color will be AFTER adjusting the CMS.

NOTE #2 :
again, i would take a quick look at the delta luminance numbers. if ALL of them are very plus, you may need to increase color, and redo the cms adjustments. each color will be a little different, so don't run red saturations, and if they are all +5, panic and raise color, cause chances are when you get around to green, it's going to be -5 after that. better at this point to run all the colors(at least primaries) before deciding if color should be adjust further. i've found that a slightly + delta luminance is less bothering than a slightly - delta luminace. so i would keep color at a setting that prevents any one primary from going too negative
Hmm I though I did....****tttt. Turned on, will make the tweaks in a bit when wife is done watching tv.

Thanks a ton for Cms guide. This will for sure be my biggest challenge, not sure why I can't grasp it.
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post #3784 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 06:23 AM
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I guess I'm not sure what adjustments to make in cms to get primary colors at 100% in the bottom left area of the software. I can play with rgb but can't seems to get the % equal
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post #3785 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
what's up with the .025cd/m2 MLL? guessing you do not have black optimizer turned on? that's at least double what it should be at. and unfortunately, that's making your target gamma pretty different. if you've not going to use BO, then no worries. but i'd turn it on, get the lower black level, and touch up the gamma(it likely won't have the second curve at 90% anymore).
0.025 cd/m^2 is also what you'll get for black if you calibrate with APL patterns like I do. That ensures that the transfer function is calibrated correctly for typical content to avoid crushing blacks. The trade-off is that for very low luminance scenes the display may come out of black a little to quickly, to counteract that I set the effective gamma to 2.4 and input offset to 50% for my night mode. The absolute BT.1886 with 100% input offset works well for my day mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
I guess I'm not sure what adjustments to make in cms to get primary colors at 100% in the bottom left area of the software. I can play with rgb but can't seems to get the % equal
Each CMS slider adjusts the luminance of the corresponding color channel and when the bar indicator is at 100% you have the correct luminance for that channel. When you are doing the adjustments using the 75%/75% patterns you may not be able to get exact matches for each primary color because you can't reduce the luminance of the other primaries below the 0 point of the adjustment (this is something Samsung messed up with their CMS), meaning you will have some undersaturation. You end up moving the color control up or down to compensate for the undersaturation and finding the best middle ground based on the 50% saturation point.
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post #3786 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 07:19 AM
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PPerfect.that helps.

I did not use apl patterns... So I should a- increase effective gamma from 2.3 to 2.4 and turn black optimization to dark
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post #3787 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 07:36 AM
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First I want to say that you guys have been amazing in this thread and a great help. Thank You!

Is the 75% saturation slide in the saturation folder of the AVS HD disc the same as the 75%/75% slide on the GCD disc?

I also noticed the difference in taking readings work the menu on and off like fierce mentioned. It kind of complicates things since you don't know what it will look like once you shut the menu off.
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post #3788 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 07:41 AM
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Black optimizer should be on because it affects peak white (assuming you will have it on during normal viewing). For a dark room calibration using non-APL patterns I would just use the normal "absolute" gamma target.
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post #3789 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 07:44 AM
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Is the 75% saturation slide in the saturation folder of the AVS HD disc the same as the 75%/75% slide on the GCD disc?
yes, you can use either disk but GCD is quicker.
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post #3790 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 08:10 AM
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yes, you can use either disk but GCD is quicker.
So with Calman they tell you to calibrate with the 75% setting but to use the slides in the 75% color folder. So what is the difference with that type of calibration and is it technically less accurate since they are being calibrated to a different 75% since the slides are not the same.
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post #3791 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 08:28 AM
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So with Calman they tell you to calibrate with the 75% setting but to use the slides in the 75% color folder. So what is the difference with that type of calibration and is it technically less accurate since they are being calibrated to a different 75% since the slides are not the same.
I believe that refers to 75% amplitude patterns at 100% saturation. All such sequences are just as accurate for the points you are calibrating, the difference is in what portion of the entire color space is being pinned down to reference values. Since you only have 6 points that can become reference values you want those points to be optimized such that the most visually important regions are closer to reference and this depends on the overall non-linearity of the display. Fixing the edge points (100% saturation) is usually not the most optimal approach for skin tones and other memory colors that are much less saturated and targeting the 75% triangle has been found to be a good compromise between memory colors and preserving highly saturated "pop" colors for plasmas.
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post #3792 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 08:39 AM
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I believe that refers to 75% amplitude patterns at 100% saturation. All such sequences are just as accurate for the points you are calibrating, the difference is in what portion of the entire color space is being pinned down to reference values. Since you only have 6 points that can become reference values you want those points to be optimized such that the most visually important regions are closer to reference and this depends on the overall non-linearity of the display. Fixing the edge points (100% saturation) is usually not the most optimal approach for skin tones and other memory colors that are much less saturated and targeting the 75% triangle has been found to be a good compromise between memory colors and preserving highly saturated "pop" colors for plasmas.
Is amplitude the same as luminance or something different?
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post #3793 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 11:19 AM
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Is amplitude the same as luminance or something different?
yes, amplitude is a more generic term for luminance.
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post #3794 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 12:04 PM
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PPerfect.that helps.

I did not use apl patterns... So I should a- increase effective gamma from 2.3 to 2.4 and turn black optimization to dark
if you're measuring .025 for MLL with BO set to dark room and window patterns, there's something off. possibly the brightness set too high.

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post #3795 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 12:38 PM
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if you're measuring .025 for MLL with BO set to dark room and window patterns, there's something off. possibly the brightness set too high.
no you were right. I had all my settings off. I just redid everything with the correct settings and used apl patterns. Moving to color now but will show graphs later. For what its worth, avg de is .25, max is .64, peak white is 37.5, contrast ratio is 11352:1. I did bt. 1886 with targets at 2.32 gamma at 50%.

off to color now.. still a bit iffy on it but we will see.
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post #3796 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 01:31 PM
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ugh still need help on color.. i just cant pick that up.

I used the GCD disk... ran measurements using 75/75 10% window apl.

Went into Color management while running continues measurements... adjusted all the colors to try and get as close to 100% as I could for all. Did an ok job, for some I needed to reduce blue but it was already at 0 so that was all I could do. Had my De between .9 and 2.2....Fierce said it should be easy to get below 1 but I don't see how.

Is this correct so far? The next steps bout doing sweeps is where I get lost. Not really sure what my next steps are.
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post #3797 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 01:56 PM
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ugh still need help on color.. i just cant pick that up.

I used the GCD disk... ran measurements using 75/75 10% window apl.

Went into Color management while running continues measurements... adjusted all the colors to try and get as close to 100% as I could for all. Did an ok job, for some I needed to reduce blue but it was already at 0 so that was all I could do. Had my De between .9 and 2.2....Fierce said it should be easy to get below 1 but I don't see how.

Is this correct so far? The next steps bout doing sweeps is where I get lost. Not really sure what my next steps are.
at 75% that might be as good as it gets. if it's only one or two colors at 2ish. at 100% it's easy, but the lower saturations can be more difficult, maybe impossible if color setting is at 50.


I've gotten lower dE's in the past, but did not like the way the picture looked. this was my last calibration



those are at 100% though, so most of my 25-75% are under 1.0, except red. red was tough:



for what it's worth, my personal goal was to keep dE's under 2.0, with an absolute cap of under 3.0. trying to get all saturations under that proved to be a waste of time for me. as I said already, the calibration with the lowest dE's, was the first time I actually noticed 'bad' color. I'm really happy with my results right now, and as you can see the numbers aren't spectacular.

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Last edited by fierce_gt; 01-04-2015 at 02:07 PM.
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post #3798 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 02:02 PM
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Looks good. So after I do 75/75, what's next?
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post #3799 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 02:25 PM
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75% gets you 'in the ballpark'...


after that, run the 100% measures so that you can run full saturation sweeps(if you don't first run 100%, things get screwy I think).


when running saturations just check to make sure you don't have large dE's at the other points.




fyi, the reason I suggest doing the 75% first is because when doing 100%, it was easy to get dE's under .5 for primaries and secondaries, but when I ran the saturations, the dE's were up over 4, some even over 5. if you start with the 75%, chances are you won't have anything that high when you run the saturations, but you may still want to tweak slightly.

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post #3800 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 02:33 PM
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ThThanks lot. Can you clarify the saturation sweep part?
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post #3801 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 03:48 PM
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ThThanks lot. Can you clarify the saturation sweep part?
what's confusing you?
after you've run the primaries/secondaries measure(with 100% reference and using 100% patterns), run the saturation measures using the patterns in the saturation folder.

you do this to make sure your color is accurate not just at one saturation point, but hopefully at ALL of them. it's like the difference between looking at 100% white and doing the 10pt grayscale. except, you don't have controls to dial in each point, so you're just looking to make sure there's no glaring errors. you won't be able to get them all super low, keep em under 2.0 if you can.

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post #3802 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 04:04 PM
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ThThanks lot. Can you clarify the saturation sweep part?
what's confusing you?
after you've run the primaries/secondaries measure(with 100% reference and using 100% patterns), run the saturation measures using the patterns in the saturation folder.

you do this to make sure your color is accurate not just at one saturation point, but hopefully at ALL of them. it's like the difference between looking at 100% white and doing the 10pt grayscale. except, you don't have controls to dial in each point, so you're just looking to make sure there's no glaring errors. you won't be able to get them all super low, keep em under 2.0 if you can.
Stupid me...I didn't even know there was saturation in the software under that drop down...that makes sense.

So,
-75/75
-fine tune
-change to normal in software
-100%
-fine tune
-run saturation sweeps
-fine tune
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post #3803 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 05:23 PM
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One more question...do you run saturation sweeps at 100 or 75?

And, is my reference 75 or regular?

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post #3804 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 06:14 PM
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final measures and settings

Ok - finished colors, not thrilled with red... not sure if anyone can make suggestions based on my graphs and settings but overall, soooo happy with picture quality. Charts attached, stats below.

Movie

Cell Light- 20
Contrast - 95
Brightness - 47
Sharpness - 0
Color - 51
Tint - g50/r50
Picture size - screen fit
Gamma - 0

ADVANCED SETTINGS

Dynamic control - off
Black tone - off
Flesh tone - 0
RGB Only - Off

Color Space:

R- 45,0,0
G- 17,55,0
B- 0,0,52
Y- 50,51,0
C- 14,54,54
M- 44,0,53

White Balance

R-offset - 31
G-offset - 25
B-offset - 27
R-gain - 24
G-gain - 25
B-gain - 24

10-point white balance

1: 0,+1,0
2:-4,-4,-6
3: -4,-3,-4
4: -7,-3,-7
5-1,-3,-4
6: -2,-2,-4
7: 0,-7,-3
8: +1,-1,-4
9: -1,-3,+4
10: +2,0,-2

Picture Options

Color tone: warm2
Digital Clean View: off
MPEG Noise Filter: off
Film: Auto 1 for film, Auto 2 sports
Motion Judder = off
Black optimizer = Dark Room
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post #3805 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 06:23 PM
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Raise color to 55 and redo the CMS adjustments. That will improve things a bit. 100% red will always be off. Your saturation passes otherwise look similar to mine. Rest looks great!
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post #3806 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Raise color to 55 and redo the CMS adjustments. That will improve things a bit. 100% red will always be off. Your saturation passes otherwise look similar to mine. Rest looks great!
Awesome, will do
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post #3807 of 4133 Old 01-04-2015, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
Stupid me...I didn't even know there was saturation in the software under that drop down...that makes sense.

So,
-75/75
-fine tune
-change to normal in software
-100%
-fine tune
-run saturation sweeps
-fine tune
looks like you've already made it through this, but there's no need for this second 'fine tune'. the whole point of doing the 'tuning' at 75% is because if you do it at 100%, the lower saturations will be off, and it's more important to have 25-75% 'right' than 100%. the only reason you go back to 100% and run the primaries/secondaries again is because you have to before you run the saturations


for the next run, I agree with above, move color up to 55, and redo the cms.


also, the little arrows to the right of 'editable data'(which is just to the right of the drop down box where you select which measures you're looking at), push the down arrow a couple of times. it will extend the window, showing you more info. the delta luminance(bottom row I believe) is most likely you're problem right now. I'm betting they are +20 or more for red(that's where mine were). increasing the value for color will help this, but it doesn't hurt to actually see the improvement so you understand why the dE's are changes
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Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One

Last edited by fierce_gt; 01-04-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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post #3808 of 4133 Old 01-05-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
completed everything but color... pretty happy with the charts.... especially the bt. 1886 gamma curve. attached images.
...
You might consider bumping the 100% blue by 1 to get the dE down (or subtract 1 from red and green).

Samsung PN60F8500, TiVo Roamio, ASRock Vision 3D HTPC, Chromecast
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post #3809 of 4133 Old 01-05-2015, 04:24 PM
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Can something please post a screenshot of a correct looking grey scale in HCFR, the screen that shows the actually readings.

I can get all my greyscale errors below 1 but when I go into Calman and run the color gamut to calibrate color in it, it takes a reading of 75% white and gives me an error of 3.5 on it.

Also, in the 2pt greyscale settings with the red gain I need to set it to like 38. Seems kind of extreme I think.
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post #3810 of 4133 Old 01-05-2015, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Can something please post a screenshot of a correct looking grey scale in HCFR, the screen that shows the actually readings.

I can get all my greyscale errors below 1 but when I go into Calman and run the color gamut to calibrate color in it, it takes a reading of 75% white and gives me an error of 3.5 on it.

Also, in the 2pt greyscale settings with the red gain I need to set it to like 38. Seems kind of extreme I think.
I've only used Calman tutorial so not sure I'd be able to help you with Calman questions.


But keep in mind that if you tweak your ten point into REALLY low errors that it's possible 75% IS 3.5 (although that seems to be a bit high for what I would call a 'mid point' (between points you can adjust in ten point) error...I don't think I ever saw a spike higher than 2.5 or so).


That's why I always suggest going for grayscale errors of 0.5 to 1.0 or so on the F8500 because after much experimentation I found that gave me better numbers when I ran 20 pt. My BS analogy that has nothing to do with TV technology or calibration is that if you have a full tube of toothpaste with the cap on and you squeeze the tube down to nothing in ten different spots the rest of the tube is going to bulge out or burst.


Hey....my wife liked the analogy...


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