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post #811 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^Unfortunately this TV brings out the bad in bad as well as the good in good...

So I'm almost hesitant to post this, but after returning from the movies I decided to throw on TDK, my benchmark for blacks, to see if the updates have done anything to the overall PQ. Maybe it's my imagination, but I swear the blacks looked as good as my Elite and I don't ever recall seeing that before. I would describe the blacks as being 'inky', a term I've not used before with the 8500. The black bars were really disappearing, for the most part, into the room. I was really impressed. The opening scene of the city at night in the 2nd chapter (I think), looked utterly stunning and absolutely as impressive as my Sharp Elite.

So, has anyone noticed this or am I just crazy...don't answer that question. biggrin.gif
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post #812 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^ *Spocky frown* smile.gif

Back on topic,

Elvamir, have you updated to 1104 yet and if so, notice any PQ 'enhancements'?

Has anyone for that matter? Try and be subjective. Play some known test material prior to and just afterwards. Don't go looking for the placebo effect!

See my post above. I'm seeing a black level improvement, but not necessarily a sharpness improvement. eek.gif
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post #813 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

^^^lmao! i dont know but it really does seem just a tad deeper... definitely something!

Betcha it's the blacks! I think we may all be describing the same thing in different ways. I'm telling you blacks are now inky and that's a term I don't throw around easily. At least that's how it appeared on TDK.
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post #814 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Betcha it's the blacks! I think we may all be describing the same thing in different ways. I'm telling you blacks are now inky and that's a term I don't throw around easily. At least that's how it appeared on TDK.

well i almost threw that in there about maybe even tad darker blacks, but didnt want to get laughed at!! i figured pie would have already checked that!?! biggrin.gif
also agree not sharpness but seems more contrast.

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post #815 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:33 PM
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Ljmart, I should have added that was with CS to boot. Go figure.
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post #816 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:33 PM
 
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^ My meter wouldn't be able to measure the small difference that low down I don't think, if there is one. We need buzz's results smile.gif

It would tally with what I'm seeing too, only I'm seeing it through what I think is contrast as well. Blacks have always been really good for me to my eyes, so perhaps I'm overlooking things.
The basic measurements I could perform did not show any differences between firmwares.
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post #817 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:35 PM
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The trouble is we'd need a before and after update on the same set with Buzz's measurements. He won't be able to do that.
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post #818 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:39 PM
 
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^ I think he was asked to by zoyd wink.gif

The real problem is how much fishing he did instead tongue.gif
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post #819 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Ljmart, I should have added that was with CS to boot. Go figure.

oh wow! then maybe floating blks are fixed?

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post #820 of 2298 Old 06-01-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^ I think he was asked to by zoyd wink.gif

The real problem is how much fishing he did instead tongue.gif

new boat. no question...!!

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post #821 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So I'm almost hesitant to post this, but after returning from the movies I decided to throw on TDK, my benchmark for blacks, to see if the updates have done anything to the overall PQ. Maybe it's my imagination, but I swear the blacks looked as good as my Elite and I don't ever recall seeing that before. I would describe the blacks as being 'inky', a term I've not used before with the 8500. The black bars were really disappearing, for the most part, into the room. I was really impressed. The opening scene of the city at night in the 2nd chapter (I think), looked utterly stunning and absolutely as impressive as my Sharp Elite.

So, has anyone noticed this or am I just crazy...don't answer that question. biggrin.gif
I noticed it after the last update as well.
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post #822 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^ My meter wouldn't be able to measure the small difference that low down I don't think, if there is one. We need buzz's results smile.gif

It would tally with what I'm seeing too, only I'm seeing it through what I think is contrast as well. Blacks have always been really good for me to my eyes, so perhaps I'm overlooking things.
The basic measurements I could perform did not show any differences between firmwares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

^ I think he was asked to by zoyd wink.gif

The real problem is how much fishing he did instead tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

new boat. no question...!!

Right.


And then there was the 700HP car ride....


Dark environment was impossible so I used the K10 in the contact mode. Some light was slipping through the glass yielding MLL of 0.002 Foot Lamberts. In the dark it would certainly be lower and I will have some dark time with this set in mid July when it gets a tuneup.

Did some testing with both FW 1017 and 1104. The CAL modes were not enabled until after loading 1104.

@zoyd
Both pre and post FW 1104 gave the exact same results:
1 0% = .002FtL
2 4.8% = .002
3 9.3% = .003
4 13.7% = .005
5 20.4% = .011
6 24.8% = .015
7 29.3% = .016
8 33.7% = .017
9 38.1% = .018
10 51.3% = .02
11 61.6% = .02
12 72.8% = .02
13 87.5% = .02

Sorry - forgot all about the below request and will get the measurements next time in a dark environment

1. Black optimizer dark room, Cinema Smooth off, Peak white ~45 ftL (pre-FW update)
2. Black optimizer dark room, CS off, Peak white ~45 ftL (post-FW update)
3. Black optimizer dark room, CS on, Peak white ~45 ftL
4. Black optimizer bright room, CS off, Peak white ~45 ftL
5. Black optimizer off, CS off, Peak white ~45 ftL
6. Black optimizer dark room, CS off, Peak white ~30 ftL

@pieandchips
You posted:
from: pieandchips on May 30, 11:36 am
Buzz,

IF
you get time, it would be great if you could test the fL on a Windows 100% (not APL as that's not what was used by the OP);

Cell Light 20
Contrast 82
Brightness 48

Color Space Auto

White Balance
R-Offset 32
G-Offset 25
B-Offset 28
R-Gain 31
G-Gain 25
B-Gain 29

10p White Balance - required? - its really pushed on 9 and 10.
#1 -1,-1,0
#2 -3,-1,0
#3 0,0,0
#4 -1,0,2
#5 -1,0,0
#6 -2,0,1
#7 0,0,0
#8 1,0,-2
#9 -8,0,10
#10 5,0,9

Gamma +1
Warm2


That tested peak white 41.2FtL with Accupel APL Windows patterns.

I didn't have time to input your lastest calibration but I used the above numbers for the "After" measurements in the following report. For the "Befores" I changed Cell to 18 and Contrast to 94. 2 point GS was set to default, 10 point OFF, and CMS Auto. Then I did what all owners can do - used Test Pattern 1 to set Brightness and got 47, then used Test Pattern 2 in the Blue only mode and came up with a Color setting of 52. This measured peak white of 47FtL so you can see how much your Contrast setting of 82 pulled luminance down. The Before and After measurements produced a tie ball game which supports what all calibrators know - copying someone else's settings is a 50/50 chance of picture improvement with the exception of 2 point Grayscale because most TVs come from the factory with overly blue GS so a reduction in 2 point blue and a possible slight increase in red can help quite a bit....

BautschF8500 Basic vs Pie CalibrationSummaryDetailed_AVS.pdf 484k .pdf file

The F8500 calibrates well:

BautschF8500 CAL-DAY AdvancedColorManagementReport_AVS.pdf 370k .pdf file


The problem with Grayscale in the upper levels was evident in this display, especially 80 and 90% stimulous. pieandchips, looking at your numbers above. 90% was problematic:

#8 1,0,-2
#9 -8,0,10
#10 5,0,9


It's not worth any more than small changes when increasing the adjustment does so little. Something is wrong and needs to be fixed. The top end of the Grayscale on my fishing buddy Dave's F8500 was pinkish.

@LarryInRI & zoyd
Help me out here. Calibrating 10% as a single entity produced a good result:


but when doing the post Cal Grayscale run, 10% measures poorly. Something is happening when going from full black to 10% stimulus and I suspect this might be happening in moving video as well:


Other numbers:
1. CAL modes enabled, Cell 20, Contrast 100
Movie mode, Field Pattern, 20.1 FtL max luminance. APL pattern, 56.4
CAL-DAY, Field, 21.2, APL, 56.7
These numbers are the same as Movie prior to enabling the CAL modes.
2. If you're sending PC level RGB to the 8500, be sure and select HDMI Black Level Low. MLL LOW = .002, Normal = .129
3. The CAL-DAY I used was Cell 20, Contrast 94, Brightness 47, Sharpness 0. This produced 49.511 Foot Lamberts and was a comfortable luminance output for the fairly bright room in which the Samsung is located.


The reference content that I use looked excellent. This is a display that would keep me happy until a better technology comes along. You owners enjoy your TVs. You make a great choice. smile.gif
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BautschF8500 CAL-DAY AdvancedColorManagementReport_AVS.pdf (369.6 KB, 56 views)
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post #823 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvamir View Post

Don't feel bad, I made a mistake too after thinking about it and also have to apologize. I did get 35ftl at my calibration, however three things were different then my settings I posted. I already mentioned that I went from 81/47 contrast/bright to 82/48. That might have added 1ftl or so at most I assume. But I was also with custom CMS, it was only after my cal that I changed to auto because the colors were just too washed out (flesh tone in particular) I felt. Being auto has more luminance, its likely it raised me another couple ftl but all the way to 49?? I still doubt that, I do believe it's more to do with the screen sizes as others have stated too, but it does likely bring us closer. Probably had me at 38-40ftl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

@pieandchips
You posted:
from: pieandchips on May 30, 11:36 am
Buzz,

IF
you get time, it would be great if you could test the fL on a Windows 100% (not APL as that's not what was used by the OP);

Cell Light 20
Contrast 82
Brightness 48

Color Space Auto

White Balance
R-Offset 32
G-Offset 25
B-Offset 28
R-Gain 31
G-Gain 25
B-Gain 29

10p White Balance - required? - its really pushed on 9 and 10.
#1 -1,-1,0
#2 -3,-1,0
#3 0,0,0
#4 -1,0,2
#5 -1,0,0
#6 -2,0,1
#7 0,0,0
#8 1,0,-2
#9 -8,0,10
#10 5,0,9

Gamma +1
Warm2


That tested peak white 41.2FtL with Accupel APL Windows patterns.

That, I can believe! What probe were you using?

Thanks for all the great info from your testing, buzz. Good stuff.

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post #824 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 08:03 AM
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Pie, so far I'm not seeing a difference between 1103 and 1104, on test content or test patterns. Could be at my settings it's not as obvious as on yours and Ken's though, if it really is just a tiny shift in black level. But I don't see anything so far. Still looks as good, not worse but also not better.


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post #825 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

@zoyd
Both pre and post FW 1104 gave the exact same results:

Thanks buzz!

Here is a comparison plot between the 3 models that have been measured using these patterns which were specially designed to measure black level rise under real world conditions that ANSI patterns do not capture.

Pattern geometry, center area is video black:




Things to note:
  • It is simply amazing to me that all 3 panels measure almost identically the same blacks with a surround average of 24.8%
  • My tweaked 51" D8000 holds mll better than the F8500 above the 24.8% transition.
  • All panels show the characteristic transition to higher mll that occurs when the surround exceeds 10%
  • The F8500 net rise from low to high is pretty strong but smoother than either the D8000 or E8000

Point 1 above means that the static contrast ratio of all 3 panels is nearly identical for scenes at about 10-11% average luminance when calibrated to the same peak white level. This is a pretty typical average scene luminance.

@buzz: what pattern geometry did you use when you saw the 10% grayscale shift?
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post #826 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 08:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvamir View Post

Pie, so far I'm not seeing a difference between 1103 and 1104, on test content or test patterns. Could be at my settings it's not as obvious as on yours and Ken's though, if it really is just a tiny shift in black level. But I don't see anything so far. Still looks as good, not worse but also not better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Elvamir, thanks!

It does look like the larger set doesn't show as bright for the same values as the 51". Interesting...
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You owners enjoy your TVs. You make a great choice. smile.gif

biggrin.gif
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post #828 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvamir View Post

What probe were you using?

Klein K10-A

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

@buzz: what pattern geometry did you use when you saw the 10% grayscale shift?

Accupel DVG 5000 10.8% rectangular APL windows.

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post #829 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cupstid View Post

I noticed it after the last update as well.

I do remember someone posting about that, maybe it was you. I never real got a chance to assess the change to any great extent until last night.

With the great ABL behavior, the brightness, sharpness and what appears to be improved blacks, it's really very impressive.
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post #830 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Klein K10-A
Accupel DVG 5000 10.8% rectangular APL windows.

What is the APL? constant stimulus or constant energy?
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post #831 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I do remember someone posting about that, maybe it was you. I never real got a chance to assess the change to any great extent until last night.

With the great ABL behavior, the brightness, sharpness and what appears to be improved blacks, it's really very impressive.

I'm unsure how black level can be improved using ones and zeros. ????

ABL - forgot to mention - I ran the AVSHD A5 Dynamic Brightness test pattern with CAL-DAY. Although ABL is somewhat subdued relative to all previous plasmas, there's still plenty of it. Try it yourself. The disc is free - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I didn't try it with the night Movie settings applied but should have. ABL effect would likely have been a LOT less.
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post #832 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Elvamir, thanks!

It does look like the larger set doesn't show as bright for the same values as the 51". Interesting...
Is this the collective decision among everyone in this thread? 51" > 60" > 64" with regards to luminance with equivalent settings incorporated? Are are we still divided on this? This was discussed a few days ago, and we all had differences of opinion......trying to get a better understanding of the luminance disparities that were measured between these tv's...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

What is the APL? constant stimulus or constant energy?

The background level changes so constant total energy should be correct, or does constant stimulus do that as well?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Elvamir, thanks!

It does look like the larger set doesn't show as bright for the same values as the 51". Interesting...
Is this the collective decision among everyone in this thread? 51" > 60" > 64" with regards to luminance with equivalent settings incorporated? Are are we still divided on this?

Unless its a difference in equipment, panel size seems to be the only other variable, yes.


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post #835 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I'm unsure how black level can be improved using ones and zeros. ????

ABL - forgot to mention - I ran the AVSHD A5 Dynamic Brightness test pattern with CAL-DAY. Although ABL is somewhat subdued relative to all previous plasmas, there's still plenty of it. Try it yourself. The disc is free - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I didn't try it with the night Movie settings applied but should have. ABL effect would likely have been a LOT less.

Not questioning that ABL is still present, I can see that relative to my Elite, but put it next to any other plasma and the difference, no pun intended, is day and night. I would, without any question, use an adjective other than 'somewhat subdued'. I think it's very significant. Unfortunately at the shootout they never put up material that would have brought it out in spades. Only briefly did they switch to Directv during a break, full-screen 16:9, and the difference between the 8500 and the other plasmas was dramatic. I wasn't the only one that saw that. The one scene that really sticks in my mind in my many visits to MHT, was a battle scene in which an overcast sky occupied about 40%-50% of the picture. Once the sky moved up to that % of screen real-estate, the V60 dimmed very significantly but the 8500 was at least 2X as bright and the dimming was not nearly as noticeable. The 8500 was in Movie mode and the Panasonic was in THX Day mode. I would have little doubt that ABL was still present in the 8500, but man, the difference was truly dramatic. It's surely not the first time I've seen this dramatic difference, but it just showed me how intrusive it can be with many scenes. I've seen significant differences with even THX Dark room settings on the VT60 and the 8500.

As for blacks, I have no idea what's causing the improvement I'm seeing. Could it be floating blacks that were improved as some have suggested? I have no idea. I just know that at least with TDK, the 8500 looked every bit as good with the darkest of scenes as did my Elite. We both know the Elite is well-known for its superb blacks. So whatever was done, it looks damn good to me. Perhaps they did something to keep blacks deeper while CS was engaged.

You know that I'm not one that goes nutsy over 'floating blacks' for reasons I've stated previously. As more and more brightness enters an otherwise black screen, your pupils contract resulting in an inability to discern the deepest blacks anyway. That's why I'm not sure it's an improvement in that.

But yes, I agree, for any given panel there will be some minimum MLL number that's inherent in the panel for which no firmware update will be able to improve. So I can't explain what I'm seeing other than to say it sure looks like something improved.

Either way, it was a superb panel before and remains such. So I agree with you, the 8500 is a great choice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The background level changes so constant total energy should be correct, or does constant stimulus do that as well?

that's constant stimulus. So I assume the average level is 22% and if so I don't know of any reason the change from black to 10% would destabilize the grayscale at that point compared to what you found using a static pattern. You'd have to try it again with regular windows and a constant energy APL like AVSHD, Mascior, or S&M patterns to investigate further.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

...So I can't explain what I'm seeing other than to say it sure looks like something improved.


I know, I'm with you. Now everyone will think the believers are nutz....
If it is a black improvement, I'm seeing it as making the scale of black to white to have more depth, so for instance a shadow will now have more detail in it, giving the picture a more 3d look, if that makes any sense (?)

Quick, here, I made you a tin foil hat like mine tongue.gif
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post #838 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Is this the collective decision among everyone in this thread? 51" > 60" > 64" with regards to luminance with equivalent settings incorporated? Are are we still divided on this? This was discussed a few days ago, and we all had differences of opinion......trying to get a better understanding of the luminance disparities that were measured between these tv's...

It's looking that way.
Other then to say there are quirks in the data, and there appears to be anomalies:
For instance I can put in the shootout basic settings of 64" TV, Cell 16, contrast 90, bright 48 and I read 41fL on a 51". They were reading 40fL

I enter Elvamirs cal, he was reading high 30's, buzz gets 41fL and I read 49fL.

My head 'splode
again, again....
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post #839 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 10:25 AM
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About the updates, are the US and the EU versions differently labeled? I have the latest EU firmware numbered 1004.7.

Anyway, the update seemed to fix the jumpy ABL for me. I played a movie called "The Art of Flight" several times before and after updating to see what it looked like.
It's a movie about snowboarding, so it obviously has ALOT of contrast scenes in it because of all the snow and mountains. Also it's often very bright, forcing the ABL to kick in alot.

Before the update I could really notice ABL kicking in during various scenes in the movie. After the update ABL seemed to behave alot more relaxed, keeping steadier brightness levels.

Anyone feel the same?
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post #840 of 2298 Old 06-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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Yes EU and NA updates are numbered differently so you really can't tell much when going by numbers between EU and NA.
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