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post #2371 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
ok, yeah, I may need intervention soon. got home early from my long weekend trip(too much rain) and I've basically done nothing but mess around with greyscale and gamma for the past 10hrs. and in all honesty, it probably hasn't gotten significantly better in the last 8.5hrs, haha.


it's like trying to go for a new 'high score', just too addictive!


but I've settled in with these settings for now. and the stuff I've watched off the kuro demo disc looks incredible
64PNF8500, Apr 2013, FW 1120
Picture mode: Movie
Cell light: 20
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 41
Sharpness: 0
Color: 47
Tint: 50
Dynamic Contrast: off
Black tone: off
Flesh tone: 0
Color Space: custom
-RED: 70, 0, 0
-GREEN: 25, 70, 0
-BLUE: 0, 0, 68
-YELLOW: 63, 62, 0
-CYAN: 11, 50, 50
-MAGENTA: 50, 3, 61
White Balance:
-RO: 32
-GO: 24
-BO: 25
-RG: 32
-GG: 23
-BG: 26
10p white balance:
-1: 2, 0, 1
-2: 5, 4, 3
-3: 5, 2, 2
-4: 4, 2, 5
-5: 4, 1, 2
-6: 4, -1, 2
-7: 1, -1, 5
-8: -1, -7, -3
-9: -1, -7, 1
-10: -1, -1. -1(I don't think this one actually does anything when contrast is at 90)
Gamma: 0
color tone: warm2
digital clean view: off
MPEG noise filter: off
film mode:auto2
MJC: off
BO: dark room


my results:








on a side note, not sure if anybody else has experienced this, but I almost lost my mind when I made a tiny 'tweak' of 1 value to the GREEN at 80% and suddenly ended up with a graph that looked like this:

fortunately, before I panicked too much, I decided to turn the tv off and on again(I knew there's no way my setting could have done this), and that seemed to fix the issue. no idea what it was about, the tv just stopped working properly and needed to be restarted for some reason
Did you noticed the difference between the blacks that where in the earlier reviews and the ones you got?

For full black screen it was 0.007 cd/m2 you got 0.01 cd/m2
For ansi it was average 0.014 cd/m2, you got 0.023 cd/m2.

I wonder why this happened, i calibrated my set some weeks ago and i noticed that also, i got the same results in the full black screen, didnt mesure the ansi though.

Very good calibration results by the way, i couldn't get a flat 2.4 gamma.

Last edited by saru360; 09-17-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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post #2372 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post
Gotcha wxman. I wasn't referring only to you, but a previous poster mentioned having to set HDMI black level to low while watching blu rays.
For me on Blu-Rays low is not even an option I can choose. With Comcast (the new X1 box) I believe it was set to low before all my settings got erased. After they were erased the black level was on medium and the blacks were more grey than black. When I put it to low the beautiful perfect blacks returned. This is strange and I wonder why this is?
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post #2373 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 12:17 PM
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You can't change it if your source outputs YCbCr video. It's 16-235 by definition. The fact that you can change it on your X1 box means it's outputs RGB, not YCbCr.
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post #2374 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by saru360 View Post
Very good calibration results by the way, i couldn't get a flat 2.4 gamma.
You should be able to get nearly any gamma you want between the gamma setting and 2 & 10 point white balance controls. You can effectively change the shape of the gamma curve with the green channel settings in the white balance controls.
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post #2375 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by saru360 View Post
Did you noticed the difference between the blacks that where in the earlier reviews and the ones you got?

For full black screen it was 0.007 cd/m2 you got 0.01 cd/m2
For ansi it was average 0.014 cd/m2, you got 0.023 cd/m2.

I wonder why this happened, i calibrated my set some weeks ago and i noticed that also, i got the same results in the full black screen, didnt mesure the ansi though.

Very good calibration results by the way, i couldn't get a flat 2.4 gamma.
I only got my meter recently, so these were the first measurements I'd ever made. but I will say, my values for black steadily rose as I did the calibrations. they start at about .009, and rise to .013 after a few hours. I believe it's the 'ir' of the test patterns making the change. I noticed this the first 'session' and wondered if I'd actually made blacks worse. but after watching content, the 2nd session started at .009 again, and slowly increased as I displayed the windows.


as for the ansi, I think it's always jumped quite a bit, can't blame that on ir


'by eye' I have not noticed a change personally(first got the tv in may 2013). the blacks were always very good, but never looked 'off black' on mine. I believe I called them 'close enough' when I first got it. prior to owning the f8500, I was pretty convinced plasma couldn't match a good CRT. the f8500 is 'close enough' in black levels, that the improved contrast, and clarity are now more significant.


EDIT: I grabbed a quick reading to show what I'm talking about. first run always hits .009 **note, you'd made me realize my PC has reset the vid card settings, all the dumb settings like dynamic contrast and skin tone correct and crap were turned back on, messing with my image. grr




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Last edited by fierce_gt; Yesterday at 12:06 AM.
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post #2376 of 2395 Old 09-17-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by F8500Man View Post
For me on Blu-Rays low is not even an option I can choose. With Comcast (the new X1 box) I believe it was set to low before all my settings got erased. After they were erased the black level was on medium and the blacks were more grey than black. When I put it to low the beautiful perfect blacks returned. This is strange and I wonder why this is?
as stereodude said, once it's grey-ed out it 'defaults' to 16-235, or the low setting. but it won't necessary SAY low when it's greyed out, it'll show you the setting you chose for when it's receiving a RGB input.


for example, my ps3 is also my bluray player. it automatically sends the 16-235 video signal for blurays, and RGB(which I have set to full 0-255) for games. so for this source, I have it set to 'normal'. when I play a bluray, this option is grey-out, reads normal, but I get a 16-235 source, and it's displayed perfectly. when I play a game, it's no longer greyed out, still reads normal, and now I get a 0-255 source that's displayed correctly.


if I changed the setting to low, my blurays would look the same, but games would be much too dark.

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post #2377 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 05:14 AM
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What is the black level in the various optimizer modes using a 25% APL pattern?

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post #2378 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
What is the black level in the various optimizer modes using a 25% APL pattern?
I'm not sure what you're asking? put up a 25% grey pattern and then move the sensor to the edge where its black and measure?


EDIT: well if that's what you want, that's what I did and these are my results. I just did free measures, and let it run 2 or 3 measures until I got the same thing repeatedly. I've attached screenshots in case there's more info in there I don't understand...


I'm still not positive how the 'auto' setting works, if it's based on content or ambient lighting, but if it's ambient lighting, I had my seating lights on, but nothing on near the tv other than a bias light.


BO: off = 0.008ftl
Dark room = 0.003ftl
Bright room = 0.008ftl
Auto = 0.003ftl






Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One

Last edited by fierce_gt; Yesterday at 09:19 AM.
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post #2379 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
What is the black level in the various optimizer modes using a 25% APL pattern?
I haven't measured that on mine yet. What size window?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking? put up a 25% grey pattern and then move the sensor to the edge where its black and measure?
No, it's a pattern with a black box in the middle and grey border that makes the APL for the entire screen 25%.
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post #2380 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I haven't measured that on mine yet. What size window?


No, it's a pattern with a black box in the middle and grey border that makes the APL for the entire screen 25%.
do you know what pattern I'd use for that in HCFR? there's a couple folders, 10/25% greyscale large, 10/25% greyscale small... I'm assuming it's one of those?


large or small?

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post #2381 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
do you know what pattern I'd use for that in HCFR? there's a couple folders, 10/25% greyscale large, 10/25% greyscale small... I'm assuming it's one of those?

large or small?
I'm not sure. I've been using MadTPG with HCFR myself.
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post #2382 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 10:13 AM
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hmm, guess I can try it with both. I've got the day off anyway, haha

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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post #2383 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
hmm, guess I can try it with both. I've got the day off anyway, haha
MadTPG has sliders to set the window size and APL. You'll need to pick constant APL - Gamma light from the drop down though.
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post #2384 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM
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I meant i'll try both patterns in the HCFR folder. although, I'm pretty certain the 'Large' is much higher than 25% APL. so far I'm basically getting the same results as the ANSI black level with it.


working my way through the "small" right now. so far it seems comparable to my above measures. will update soon.

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post #2385 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 10:59 AM
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ok, time for some more science


I used the 'small' APL patterns from HCFR. I attached an image of the pattern when displaying 10% grey. obviously I used the 0% pattern.


my results:
Dark Room: 0.011/0.003
Bright Room: 0.031/0.009
Auto(lights off): 0.011/0.003
Auto(lights on): 0.032/0.009
Off:0.032/0.009


guess I can confirm the 'auto' setting adjusts based on room lighting too.


now, questions for you guys. I noticed while doing this that I got hugely different gamma curves when using the 'fields', 'windows'(which I could out were 15%), and 'APL patterns'. the greyscale changes a bit as well, but nothing huge, they all stay at least under a dE of 3. but for real content, what do you think is a better reference? the fields seems no good at all, but do you think a 15% window or low APL pattern would be better?
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Sorry I couldn't jump in earlier. By 25% APL I did mean a window with surround = 25% video level. The small ones you used from the AVHSD end up with overall darker averages than typical content. The closest ones on disk to average content brightness (or I prefer average relative luminance ARL) are the 4% APL patterns on the MCD disk. Alternatively you can use the madVR pattern generator and set the APL level to 40% linear light. A 25% surround is also on the low end of typical content which tends to be in the 10%-15% ARL range for movies and higher for sports etc.

10% ARL for a black measurement can be generated with a small window (say 4%) on a 35% background assuming a gamma=2.2 display (0.35^(2.2) = 0.1)
15% ARL you would need 0.15^(1/2.2) = 42% background

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post #2387 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 03:15 PM
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yeah, I understood none of that. i'll let somebody else handle this, haha

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post #2388 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Sorry I couldn't jump in earlier. By 25% APL I did mean a window with surround = 25% video level. The small ones you used from the AVHSD end up with overall darker averages than typical content. The closest ones on disk to average content brightness (or I prefer average relative luminance ARL) are the 4% APL patterns on the MCD disk. Alternatively you can use the madVR pattern generator and set the APL level to 40% linear light. A 25% surround is also on the low end of typical content which tends to be in the 10%-15% ARL range for movies and higher for sports etc.
I'm not sure I did what you wanted since before you were talking about 25% APL and above it's 25% ARL via 40% APL (linear)...

I used a 8% window with MadVR with 40% APL linear light.

Dark Room:
B: 0.035
W: 171.989

Bright Room:
B:0.037
W:206.803

Off:
B:0.036
W:172.087

I also measured 8% windows (MadVR).

Dark Room:
B: 0.011
W: 169.988

Bright Room:
B:0.028
W:205.040

Off:
B:0.027
W:169.656

Last edited by Stereodude; Yesterday at 05:06 PM.
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post #2389 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 05:11 PM
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Thanks! yes, very nice. I was curious on current contrast ratio performance for typical content. So I take it people leave the optimizer at dark room all the time unless they want to run super bright? Personally I couldn't handle anything over 140 cd/m^2 in my environment. Anyway, those numbers are better than what I had seen previously.

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post #2390 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 05:17 PM
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So when you were talking about calibrating with 8% window / 25% APL patterns, did you mean 25% ARL or 25% APL?

Is the correct setting to mirror what you do with MadTPG 8% / 40% APL Linear or 8% / 25% APL Gamma?
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post #2391 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Oh i know what you mean, I did a big upgrade from the 65in 1080i/540p CRT to the 1080p LCD and then ultimately the plasma. Funny how with all the extra resolution you end up with so many 'new' problems to learn about. If the CRT had just been 1080p, I already had geometry/convergence figured out and would have been set....of course the better half likes slim and stainless
How heavy was that 65in CRT? I've never seen one size.

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post #2392 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'm not sure I did what you wanted since before you were talking about 25% APL and above it's 25% ARL via 40% APL (linear)...

I used a 8% window with MadVR with 40% APL linear light.

Dark Room:
B: 0.035
W: 171.989

Bright Room:
B:0.037
W:206.803

Off:
B:0.036
W:172.087

I also measured 8% windows (MadVR).

Dark Room:
B: 0.011
W: 169.988

Bright Room:
B:0.028
W:205.040

Off:
B:0.027
W:169.656
that's interesting, when I did mine I was trying to figure out what the point of 'bright room' was if it had the same black levels as off. figured something might change on the top end, which appears to be the case for you, but I saw absolutely no change to the 100% value on mine. do you think this is because I have my contrast turned down to 90 to keep peak white at around 32ftl?

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post #2393 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So when you were talking about calibrating with 8% window / 25% APL patterns, did you mean 25% ARL or 25% APL?
At first I suggested APL but then realized for a black measurement (because the window weights the measurement towards the low end) one should use ARL, sorry about the confusion.

Quote:
Is the correct setting to mirror what you do with MadTPG 8% / 40% APL Linear or 8% / 25% APL Gamma?
I typically use 8% / 25% APL "gamma light" because this activates a ranges of ARL (roughly 4%-11%) but the results of that compared to using 8% / 40% "linear light" (which is ~13% ARL) are not significantly different.

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post #2394 of 2395 Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
that's interesting, when I did mine I was trying to figure out what the point of 'bright room' was if it had the same black levels as off. figured something might change on the top end, which appears to be the case for you, but I saw absolutely no change to the 100% value on mine. do you think this is because I have my contrast turned down to 90 to keep peak white at around 32ftl?
I'm not sure. I have cell light at 20 and contrast at 95.

Based on this and some of my other testing I think I should enable Cal-day and Cal-night. The gamma curve and WB changes between dark room and bright room. Then I can run a lower gamma like 2.1 with the extra brightness in the day and 2.35 with the lower brightness at night and have both dialed in.
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