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post #2431 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
HTPC(outputs 16-235 RGB) -- TV greyed out
You're not sending RGB if it's greyed out. Your video card must be set to output YCbCr.
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post #2432 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If it's greyed out the input signal is YCC.
Zoyd, Stereodude, would you speculate why I need to tick the amd video card's dynamic range to 0-255 to avoid reducing the Samsung's brightness to approx. 18 in order to properly set black reference? Is it because I'm not correctly setting the avr's CS settings? Perhaps I need to connect the htpc directly to the Samsung, bypassing the avr?

My goal is to send 16-235 from WMC7 to the f8500 with the fewest compression/expansion events.

Last edited by bmcn; 09-28-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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post #2433 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 12:10 PM
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Ideally you want your playback program to render video levels and everything else to be pass-thru. That means the video card needs to be set to 0-255 over HDMI so it won't scale.
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post #2434 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I assume you've looked into settings on the wiiU?


sounds like the wii is outputting 16-235 RGB, if you could get it to output 0-255, or even 16-235 YPbPr, this would solve your problem.


failing that, I personally would just set the ps3 to output 16-235 as well. I'd rather do that than switch every time.
Yes, to my knowledge there is no adjustable setting available on the Wii U. I thought about adjusting the PS3, which would be fine, but then the cable box would be out of sync.
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post #2435 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Ideally you want your playback program to render video levels and everything else to be pass-thru. That means the video card needs to be set to 0-255 over HDMI so it won't scale.
So, video card = 'rbg full/0-255' rather than 'rgb limited/0-255' for video only use?

Thank you.

Last edited by bmcn; 09-28-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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post #2436 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Ideally you want your playback program to render video levels and everything else to be pass-thru. That means the video card needs to be set to 0-255 over HDMI so it won't scale.
Zoyd, thanks again, but is it RGB Full or RGB Limited?


Color space discussion: Calibrate for 0-255 or 16-235?
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post #2437 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 03:55 PM
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At the risk of being repetitive, if your rendering program (madVR, etc.) produces video levels from the source then keep the video card in it's default state (0-255) so it doesn't scale the output.
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post #2438 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
At the risk of being repetitive, if your rendering program (madVR, etc.) produces video levels from the source then keep the video card in it's default state (0-255) so it doesn't scale the output.
I apologize for the lack of clarity in the question; I'm sure I'm missing something on this subject.


I've set video card output to 0-255.


What is your opinion on the video card's pixel setting: RGB Full or RGB Limited?
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post #2439 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 04:19 PM
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Sorry, I don't understand the difference between "video card output to 0-255" and "pixel setting = RGB Full", my video card only has full vs. limited output settings.
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post #2440 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If it's greyed out the input signal is YCC.
I'm sure that must be the case, and is why I said something was probably off on that. but it's very clearly stated as being 16-235 RGB in my video card settings. so since I can't really 'test' it, it says one thing, but appears to be another, I didn't want to state anything with certainty


EDIT: I dug a little deeper in the menus of the my video card, and did find a setting that indicated I was sending out 4:4:4 YPP.


so, now I have a question. in that above setting I found, I can choose YPP, limited RGB, and full RGB. YPP and limited give me identical results, but I don't want limited since it forces me to switch to low. but when I did full rgb, I didn't notice any change either. the YPP/low combo looked the same as RGB/normal.


I also have a tab dedicated to 'video' settings, and in there I can choose between 0-255 and 16-235 independently of my desktop settings. the only difference I notice with these settings, is that if I set to 0-255, the brightness needs to be higher than if I set to 16-235. but it does appear that leaving this at 16-235, it looks exactly the same whether I am outputting YPP or full RGB(from the other settings tab).


I guess what I'm getting to, is I don't see any difference as long as the ranges are matched. for everyday content, I'm assuming there's not a big reason to complicate things right? I might as well just leave the HTPC outputting YPP, and continue to treat it as a video player? it would be worth it if I were doing some photo editing or stuff like that, but since I'm not, shouldn't really matter?


for what it's worth. I'm using a r7 250 video card, and the amd catalyst control. the two settings I'm talking about are 'pixel format' under the 'my digital flat panels' tab(this is YPP, RGB limited, RGB full) and the dynamic range setting under 'color' in the 'video' tab(full or limited)

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Last edited by fierce_gt; 09-28-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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post #2441 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
Yes, to my knowledge there is no adjustable setting available on the Wii U. I thought about adjusting the PS3, which would be fine, but then the cable box would be out of sync.
the cable box 'should' be sending 16-235 YPP. when the tv receives YPP, it will automatically adjust to the 16-235 range, and that setting will be greyed out.


I'm guessing, what's happening for you right now is:
ps3 --> 0-255RGB --> tv set to normal(0-255), so everything works correctly
cable --> 16-235 YPP--> tv automatically switches to 16-235, so everything works correctly
wiiU --> 16-235 RGB --> tv does NOT switch, still on normal(0-255), you have mismatched settings.


that's why I say the two solutions to avoid having to switch each time, is to either set your ps3 to 16-235, and the tv to 'low', or if you could set the wiiu to 0-255. the cable box 'should' work automatically regardless of what setting you have for RGB inputs, because the YPP input will automatically go to the correct 16-235.


this is how I am able to have my PS3 play games at 0-255 and blurays at 16-235 without me having to change anything. the games are sent RGB, which I have set to normal, and the blurays are sent YPP, which doesn't require a setting on the tv(it's automatic).


the easy way to check is to see if the option is greyed out when you are watching cable. if it's greyed out, it's a YPP signal, and you don't have to worry about it.

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post #2442 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
I apologize for the lack of clarity in the question; I'm sure I'm missing something on this subject.


I've set video card output to 0-255.


What is your opinion on the video card's pixel setting: RGB Full or RGB Limited?
I believe what zoyd is saying, is that you should set your video card settings to RGB full(0-255), so that your desktop and programs and all that look the way they are supposed to. but you need to fix the settings in your video player so that videos(only) are output in 16-235. where I'm not 100% is if it matters whether they are 16-235 RGB(limited) or YPP. I feel like it would be better if you could get YPP since the tv should automatically switch to 16-235, whereas 16-235 RGB would make you switch the tv to the 'low' setting.


I haven't really figured out how to do this nicely with mine, and since I don't particularly care if youtube videos, and facebook photos are accurate, I've set my video card to output 16-235 all the time. this way there's no change between my desktop and video player, no slow hdmi handshake, and no chance of getting dropped connection(I've had a lot of those in the past with my projector)
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post #2443 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Sorry, I don't understand the difference between "video card output to 0-255" and "pixel setting = RGB Full", my video card only has full vs. limited output settings.
Interesting; my AMD 6500 with its Catalyst Control Center has an output setting which I set at 0-255 per your suggestion.

It also has a Pixel format option where one can select either RGB Full or RGB Limited. Samsung's brightness setting to achieve reference Reference black is 47 for either of the RGB settings.

However, using the squares seen in the attachment squares 1, 2 and 3 are visible using RGB Limited, and are not visible using RGB Full. The 0-225 setting is unchanged with either.

Any opinion on why this occurs and if squares 1, 2 and 3 are necessary for video? Does viewing the three squares mean other parts of the space are now incorrect?
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post #2444 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I believe what zoyd is saying, is that you should set your video card settings to RGB full(0-255), so that your desktop and programs and all that look the way they are supposed to. but you need to fix the settings in your video player so that videos(only) are output in 16-235. where I'm not 100% is if it matters whether they are 16-235 RGB(limited) or YPP. I feel like it would be better if you could get YPP since the tv should automatically switch to 16-235, whereas 16-235 RGB would make you switch the tv to the 'low' setting.


I haven't really figured out how to do this nicely with mine, and since I don't particularly care if youtube videos, and facebook photos are accurate, I've set my video card to output 16-235 all the time. this way there's no change between my desktop and video player, no slow hdmi handshake, and no chance of getting dropped connection(I've had a lot of those in the past with my projector)
My hair now hurts from this. Your hardware configuration is much more challenging than mine and I still can't fully grasp the topic.

I've set the range to 0-255 for the video card, all other settings on the chain are 16-235.

The remaining issue is the pixel setting of either rgb full or rgb limited for the video card. This setting is independent of, and interacts with, the 0-255 range setting.

My player is WMC7, so I don't have the luxury of changing the color space within the application; it's 16-235 or nothing.

Last edited by bmcn; 09-28-2014 at 05:28 PM.
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post #2445 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
My hair now hurts from this.

The remaining issue is the pixel setting of either rgb full or rgb limited for the video card. This setting is independent of, and interacts with the 0-255.
Whichever setting gives you the correct black/white points when the display is set to HDMI=Low, including passing above white codes, is the one you should use. Use the brightness and contrast clipping patterns from the AVSHD mp4.
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post #2446 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Whichever setting gives you the correct black/white points when the display is set to HDMI=Low, including passing above white codes, is the one you should use. Use the brightness and contrast clipping patterns from the AVSHD mp4.
Will again try those. Thank you.
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post #2447 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
My hair now hurts from this. Your hardware configuration is much more challenging than mine and I still can't fully grasp the topic.

I've set the range to 0-255 for the video card, all other settings on the chain are 16-235.

The remaining issue is the pixel setting of either rgb full or rgb limited for the video card. This setting is independent of, and interacts with, the 0-255 range setting.

My player is WMC7, so I don't have the luxury of changing the color space within the application; it's 16-235 or nothing.
im also using media center, so I can appreciate the frustration of not having many controls. this was the main reason I opted to set my HTPC to the limited range(and in fact forego RGB entirely and use the YPP video format) and just treat the whole thing like a 'video player'.


btw, rgb full is 0-255, rgb limited is 16-235. but chances are, like with mine, the two settings apply to different situations. it appears one setting sis a 'global setting' and the other only applies to video. so my guess is you'd want to set it to rgb limited, but best to double check with the patterns.

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post #2448 of 3158 Old 09-28-2014, 06:41 PM
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^ Set your HTPC to use YCbCr
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post #2449 of 3158 Old 09-29-2014, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
the cable box 'should' be sending 16-235 YPP. when the tv receives YPP, it will automatically adjust to the 16-235 range, and that setting will be greyed out.


I'm guessing, what's happening for you right now is:
ps3 --> 0-255RGB --> tv set to normal(0-255), so everything works correctly
cable --> 16-235 YPP--> tv automatically switches to 16-235, so everything works correctly
wiiU --> 16-235 RGB --> tv does NOT switch, still on normal(0-255), you have mismatched settings.


that's why I say the two solutions to avoid having to switch each time, is to either set your ps3 to 16-235, and the tv to 'low', or if you could set the wiiu to 0-255. the cable box 'should' work automatically regardless of what setting you have for RGB inputs, because the YPP input will automatically go to the correct 16-235.


this is how I am able to have my PS3 play games at 0-255 and blurays at 16-235 without me having to change anything. the games are sent RGB, which I have set to normal, and the blurays are sent YPP, which doesn't require a setting on the tv(it's automatic).


the easy way to check is to see if the option is greyed out when you are watching cable. if it's greyed out, it's a YPP signal, and you don't have to worry about it.
This is what I ended up with, and it seems to be working well for all sources. I'm used to the 500M, which can be a bit of a nightmare in this area. I kind of forgot that a normal display should automatically sort out YPP. Whenever I get this thing calibrated, I'll confirm that all is well, but subjectively it looks good...with blacks where they should be and reasonable shadow detail across the board.


Thanks!
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post #2450 of 3158 Old 10-04-2014, 06:06 PM
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After having my set for about a year now I'm finally getting a pro calibration on Monday. I've been running a cal posted by another member, don't recall which member but it was for 64" like mine. While it looks pretty good to my eye I'm really looking forward to seeing how much improvement results. Should be interesting.
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post #2451 of 3158 Old 10-04-2014, 10:01 PM
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Friend just got a brand-new 64" 8500, any advice on 2 items appreciated:

(1) Any quick-setting from the OSM that he can quickly put the TV on ? It looks great, but right now it just came out of the box and was wall-mounted so he/we haven't had time to fiddle around. Plus, he just moved so he'll be packing/unpacking/decorating/setting up the next few days/weeks so he really doesn't have a few hours to mess around. Just want to know any quick default settings or do's-and-don'ts regarding the TV.

For instance, last night while watching the LA-STL baseball playoff game, I noticed a little blotch above/below the team's city names in the lower left of the TV. Now...we were sitting only 5-6' away from a 64" TV so maybe that's gonna happen when you sit up close. It was just a lighter discoloration 'blotch' and nothing major (certainly, at a further distance, I'd never notice it). I see the same thing up-close on my 50" but not from normal sitting distance of 9'.

But if there's any setting involving Sharpness/Contrast/Dynamic whatevers that makes things sharper or less noticeable to the eye, I'm all ears (or all eyes ).

(2) Calibration: Thoughts for a regular viewer who spent the $$$ on an 8500...worth it, or only if you are obsessive ? Also, if he moves to another apt. in a year or so, would he need to get the TV recalibrated again ?
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post #2452 of 3158 Old 10-04-2014, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
Friend just got a brand-new 64" 8500, any advice on 2 items appreciated:

(1) Any quick-setting from the OSM that he can quickly put the TV on ? It looks great, but right now it just came out of the box and was wall-mounted so he/we haven't had time to fiddle around. Plus, he just moved so he'll be packing/unpacking/decorating/setting up the next few days/weeks so he really doesn't have a few hours to mess around. Just want to know any quick default settings or do's-and-don'ts regarding the TV.

For instance, last night while watching the LA-STL baseball playoff game, I noticed a little blotch above/below the team's city names in the lower left of the TV. Now...we were sitting only 5-6' away from a 64" TV so maybe that's gonna happen when you sit up close. It was just a lighter discoloration 'blotch' and nothing major (certainly, at a further distance, I'd never notice it). I see the same thing up-close on my 50" but not from normal sitting distance of 9'.

But if there's any setting involving Sharpness/Contrast/Dynamic whatevers that makes things sharper or less noticeable to the eye, I'm all ears (or all eyes ).

(2) Calibration: Thoughts for a regular viewer who spent the $$$ on an 8500...worth it, or only if you are obsessive ? Also, if he moves to another apt. in a year or so, would he need to get the TV recalibrated again ?
I'm pretty sure this was covered, lost in the bulk of this massive thread I'm sure, but my preference to 'quick and dirty' settings would be to load up the avs test patterns(or similar) and set brightness with that pattern. might as well just leave contrast at 95. color and tint at 50. and sharpness at 0(go as high as 10 on preference, but I wouldn't go any higher than that).
turn off dynamic contrast, mpeg filter, motion judder canceller, etc. basically all those 'features' except black optimizer, which can be set to dark room(if all viewing will be in a dim/dark room) or auto(if you will also watch in high ambient light).
I would recommend to start with warm1 for color temp, it has a blue push, but warm2 has a very strong green push, and unless you're able to correct that with the white balance controls, I find it nearly unwatchable.
set color space to auto


calibration is worth it, imo. the ootb settings are not great. but feel free to try something the member's calibrations posted in the settings thread before paying for to see if you can get something close enough. the law of diminishing returns certainly applies here. you will see more of a difference by spending a couple hours tweaking things yourself, buying a meter and doing a 'full' calibration will get you a bit more, and hiring a pro with even better gear and knowledge will get you that last 5-10%. in most cases though, this is more an 'ignorance is bliss' situation. I was really happy with the tv when I got it. then I was really impressed with how much better it looked when I plugged in somebody else's settings. then I was blown away when I bought a meter and did my own calibration. I can only imagine what'd happen if I paid a pro. but for me, the 'comfort zone' as far as budget goes was to get a meter and learn the hobby. so I'm happy not knowing how much better a pro could get it, and just assuming what I can do with a meter and a lot of patience can be close enough

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post #2453 of 3158 Old 10-05-2014, 10:29 AM
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Hello all
Proud new owner of a 60F8500. Question I did some tweaking looking at all the posts on this thread. Is there any way to get rid of the Orange and yellows look to the movie mode with the warm temp 2? Is it just me or do other owners experience this?
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post #2454 of 3158 Old 10-05-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
(2) Calibration: Thoughts for a regular viewer who spent the $$$ on an 8500...worth it, or only if you are obsessive ? Also, if he moves to another apt. in a year or so, would he need to get the TV recalibrated again ?
I've been satisfied using settings another user had posted and then using a calibration disc to fine tune but I will let you know Tuesday if it was worth it. Without the equipment or knowledge to know for sure I'm getting all this set has to offer I'm willing to pay to be certain. Since I am a previous customer(had a RPTV calibrated years ago) I'm getting a generous discount and not paying full price. I will say having my RPTV calibrated made a vast improvement.

I don't know about moving, good question. I wouldn't think moving would frag a calibration but that's just a guess.
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post #2455 of 3158 Old 10-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Hello all
Proud new owner of a 60F8500. Question I did some tweaking looking at all the posts on this thread. Is there any way to get rid of the Orange and yellows look to the movie mode with the warm temp 2? Is it just me or do other owners experience this?
While many have reported best results with Warm 2 when doing a full calibration, others have also reported that Warm 1 achieves more neutral results when doing a basic calibration.



I have only done the basic calibration, using the Spears & Munsil disc, on my 64F8500, and I found Warm 1 to be more accurate. Warm 2 looked yellow to me.

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post #2456 of 3158 Old 10-05-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by HeffeMusic View Post
Hello all
Proud new owner of a 60F8500. Question I did some tweaking looking at all the posts on this thread. Is there any way to get rid of the Orange and yellows look to the movie mode with the warm temp 2? Is it just me or do other owners experience this?
the default warm2 color settings is VERY green.


you can fix this in the 2pt white balance controls, but without a meter it's really just a random shot in the dark.


to ballpark it, I'd say you need to turn the green down to 24(both gain and offset), the red up close to 30, and the blue 25-28(my blue was low in the top end)


anyway, this was my warm2 default results when I ran the greyscale





I still think it's easier to just use warm1 if you aren't go to do the full calibration though. it has more of a blue push, which is a lot more pleasing to the eye than the green push
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Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #2457 of 3158 Old 10-06-2014, 04:23 PM
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Is looping the screen wipe enough to break in the set before calibration for x hours or how much does age effect calibration on the 60f8500?
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post #2458 of 3158 Old 10-06-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
the default warm2 color settings is VERY green.
Not all will be high in green. YMMV.
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post #2459 of 3158 Old 10-06-2014, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
(2) Calibration: Thoughts for a regular viewer who spent the $$$ on an 8500...worth it, or only if you are obsessive ? Also, if he moves to another apt. in a year or so, would he need to get the TV recalibrated again ?
After having it calibrated today, totally worth it and I'm definitely pleased with the results. My "before" settings are still in Cal-Day and the new settings are in Cal-Night. Switch between them and it's easy to see a difference. Is it a night and day difference? Nope, but there is very marked improvement, especially with black level and overall color, the picture is now truly outstanding. Doug Weil of Clearly Resolved Image and Sound did the calibration, this is second set he's done for me over the years and I can highly recommend him.
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post #2460 of 3158 Old 10-06-2014, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cozmo85 View Post
Is looping the screen wipe enough to break in the set before calibration for x hours or how much does age effect calibration on the 60f8500?

Just watch varied content for 1-300 hours before you get your set calibrated. The more the better. Avoid long term sessions of static images during this time. Besides that not much else to do


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