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post #2611 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghaleb View Post
Well, damn! This doesnt look easy. thanks for the 10pt tip, I tried it and left gamma at 0 and it definitely improved the black crush problem, the picture is richer now. I still dont like warm 2 though, maybe it looks good when calibrated but I tried like a dozen recommended settings and I always preferred warm 1. Does using warm 1 instead of warm 2 negate all the adjustments in the color space and white balance (2pt and 10pt)?
I agree, warm2 without any adjustments is terrible. it's 'closer' but a blue push(warm1) is way more acceptable to the eye than a green push(warm2).

if you do a calibration, warm1/warm2 doesn't really matter. other than warm 2 is actually closer, and therefore requires less adjustments being made. but once calibrated, warm1 or warm2 should look identical. they will need different adjustments for sure though, so you can't use the 2pt/10pt adjustments from warm1 and apply them to warm2.

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post #2612 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
That's a pretty big "other", in my opinion. I have the same settings for movie and standard modes, and the standard mode has more clarity and is more pleasing to my eyes. I prefer a brighter mode for watching live sports and news casts. I don't want to feel like I'm watching those events on a movie screen inside a theater. I prefer the realism, more pop that Standard mode provides. I can't stand the "veil" that Movie, warm 2 creates on those types of live events. I want that "in your face" live picture that I haven't been able to tweak in movie mode.
ymmv of course, but if my f8500 in movie mode got any brighter i'd need sunglasses to watch it. I already have to turn down contrast and cell light to avoid it being too bright. there should be no problem getting 50ftl out of movie mode, even 60-70 if you're willing to give up a bit on the gamma curve. I believe mine was topping out around 80ftl before I adjusted gamma

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post #2613 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 08:50 AM
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Keep in mind that after calibration of warm 2, the whites are whiter, creating more light output than uncalibrated warm 2, even if both calibrated and uncalibrated's cell light and contrast are set to the same number.

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post #2614 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 08:58 AM
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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread.....

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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post
Keep in mind that after calibration of warm 2, the whites are whiter, creating more light output than uncalibrated warm 2, even if both calibrated and uncalibrated's cell light and contrast are set to the same number.

There's so many other owners wanting to use other owner's calibration settings on their tv's. I don't think they understand that these cal's don't create the same picture on their tv's that they do on the calibrated tv. I have tried nearly every cal posted on my tv, and the whites in warm 2 still are "dirty" whites. They are not brilliant whiter than white, like they are in Standard. it's like there's a "veil" over the whole tv while watching in Movie, warm 2. Warm 1, Movie mode really helps, but still doesn't approach the clarity/realism of Standard mode, Standard color temp provides.
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post #2615 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
That's a pretty big "other", in my opinion. I have the same settings for movie and standard modes, and the standard mode has more clarity and is more pleasing to my eyes. I prefer a brighter mode for watching live sports and news casts. I don't want to feel like I'm watching those events on a movie screen inside a theater. I prefer the realism, more pop that Standard mode provides. I can't stand the "veil" that Movie, warm 2 creates on those types of live events. I want that "in your face" live picture that I haven't been able to tweak in movie mode.
I'm just saying there is nothing special about standard mode that adds "extra clarity". Assuming you have all other controls set the same, what you are perceiving is due to the extra brightness. The only other difference between the modes is that the standard mode/auto color space is somewhat more saturated than movie mode/auto, this shouldn't affect the perception of clarity but perhaps is more pleasing to look at even though it is further away from standards.
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post #2616 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm just saying there is nothing special about standard mode that adds "extra clarity". Assuming you have all other controls set the same, what you are perceiving is due to the extra brightness. The only other difference between the modes is that the standard mode/auto color space is somewhat more saturated than movie mode/auto, this shouldn't affect the perception of clarity but perhaps is more pleasing to look at even though it is further away from standards.

Standard is brighter...no doubt about that. I'm not seeking extra brightness when I'm using Standard Mode. In fact, I turn down my cell light to 11-14, when I'm in Standard. When I'm in Movie mode, I have to crank up cell light to 17-18, but I still can't get the realism I'm looking for when in Movie mode. Whites are not brilliant white (they're on the dirty side, creating a veil on the overall screen"). It's a subdued look. Perfect for watching a movie (like in a theater), but not for watching live sports/newscasts.
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post #2617 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:09 AM
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I don't know what your experience is, but it could also be the blue-ish whites that you prefer.

even after years of looking at '6500k' whites, I tend to see something closer to 7000k and think 'wow' under certain circumstances
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post #2618 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I don't know what your experience is, but it could also be the blue-ish whites that you prefer.

even after years of looking at '6500k' whites, I tend to see something closer to 7000k and think 'wow' under certain circumstances

I think you are exactly on the right track in your thinking. Maybe I do prefer the "blu-ish" whites more. They don't have the dirty-white look that the warmer color temps seem to show.
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post #2619 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:25 AM
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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread.....

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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
The only other difference between the modes is that the standard mode/auto color space is somewhat more saturated than movie mode/auto, this shouldn't affect the perception of clarity but perhaps is more pleasing to look at even though it is further away from standards.
Maybe that's why I find myself reducing "color" down 5 notches from the 50 norm. It's a bit too much saturation on some broadcasts when set at 50. I prefer 45. It's more realistic.
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post #2620 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
That's a pretty big "other", in my opinion. I have the same settings for movie and standard modes, and the standard mode has more clarity and is more pleasing to my eyes. I prefer a brighter mode for watching live sports and news casts. I don't want to feel like I'm watching those events on a movie screen inside a theater. I prefer the realism, more pop that Standard mode provides. I can't stand the "veil" that Movie, warm 2 creates on those types of live events. I want that "in your face" live picture that I haven't been able to tweak in movie mode.
Your post is what I was referring to, I definitely see that veil and it has nothing to do with color or brightness or any adjustment, it's just there. It's noticeable when you toggle between standard and movie. as you said standard is better imo for any viewing condition that isnt a movie in a pitch dark room.
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post #2621 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 10:22 AM
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Dan would you kindly share your settings in standard mode? Unfortunately I cant send pm's yet, thanks
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post #2622 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 10:45 AM
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there shouldn't be a 'veil' in movie mode. by all means, keep using standard, that's fine, it's still good. but there's likely some other setting that is responsible for what you're seeing.

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post #2623 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghaleb View Post
Your post is what I was referring to, I definitely see that veil and it has nothing to do with color or brightness or any adjustment, it's just there. It's noticeable when you toggle between standard and movie. as you said standard is better imo for any viewing condition that isnt a movie in a pitch dark room.
I'm skeptical that such a thing exists but I'll have a more critical look at it tonight.

Here are my suggested settings for this display. They will produce something closer to a reference image than any of the presets and will be a good starting point for when y'all buy a meter.

Subdued room lighting
Brightness: adjust using test pattern 1 click below where level 16 shows green dithering, typically 48 or 49.
Contrast: 95
Cell light: set for comfortable long-term viewing (range for cell 12-15 will be approximately 30-35 ftL)
Sharpness: 0
Color: 55
Tint: default
Movie mode: warm 2 or warm 1. (warm 2 is closer to spec but may appear greenish at lower stimulus levels in which case use warm 1 instead)
Gamma: -1 (minimal lighting, bump up to 0 if you lose black detail or if material is not well-suited to this setting)
2 pt. White Balance if using warm 2
r offset 26
g offset 22
b offset 23
r gain 28
g gain 24
b gain 24
Color space: Custom
Red: 38 0 0
Green: 24 47 3
Blue: 0 0 45
Yellow: 47 46 5
Cyan: 27 49 51
Magenta: 41 0 49
10 pt control (leave this off if you want closer to pure power law gamma at 2.4):
Level 1: 4,4,4
Level 2: 2,2,2
Level 3: 1,1,1
others default.
Digital clear view: low is good for SD material and sub-par HD, otherwise off
Picture size: screen fit
Black optimizer: dark room
For 24p input turn cinema smooth on.
all other enhancements off

deltas for moderate room lighting:
Cell = 15-20 (set for comfortable long-term viewing, will be ~35-45 ftL)
Gamma = 0
Color = 53

deltas for bright room:
Cell = 15-20 (set for comfortable long-term viewing, will be ~45-55 ftL)
Gamma = +1
Color = 50
Black optimizer = Bright room or Auto

If you need even more light output then switch to standard mode:
Cell = 15-20 (17 on my display yields 75 ftL)
Contrast = 90 (above 90 standard mode begins clipping)
Gamma = +1
Color = 50
Color space: custom as above
Black optimizer = Bright room
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Last edited by zoyd; 11-26-2014 at 08:48 AM. Reason: updated after 125 hours and added 2pt. WB
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post #2624 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 12:17 PM
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^ Thanks, Zoyd. I will try out your settings also, and see how they compare to my current settings.
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post #2625 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rghaleb View Post
Your post is what I was referring to, I definitely see that veil and it has nothing to do with color or brightness or any adjustment, it's just there. It's noticeable when you toggle between standard and movie. as you said standard is better imo for any viewing condition that isnt a movie in a pitch dark room.
I wonder if the veil you talk about is a sense of a whitish haze and a lack of "punch" or "pop" in your image in Movie mode?

The reason I ask is because on my Samsung F5300 panel, default out of box settings with Movie mode (and Warm2) felt a bit like that. The picture looked very nice and natural, but there was a bit of a whitish haze/muted look to it with the picture lacking some pop to it. I found that turning on Dynamic contrast actually made the picture look better which is obviously not right.

When I calibrated, I found out that the F5300 panel tends to be undersaturated with colors in the 25-75% saturation range while matching fairly well at 100% saturation with out of the box settings. When I tweaked the CMS settings to optimize the calibration for the 25-75% saturation range at the expense of accuracy at 100% saturation, the images and picture quality looked fantastic. The whitish haze was gone, colors and images on the whole had a lot more punch to them and turning on Dynamic contrast now looked worse with clear color clipping occuring due to the artificially added contrast enhancement.

I wonder if there might not be a similar thing going on with the uncalibrated F8500 panels.
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post #2626 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 02:57 PM
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Zoyd, does the "white balance" setting vary from one 8500 to another? I noticed you didn't list that setting in your settings writeup above.
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post #2627 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Here are my suggested settings for this display. They will produce something closer to a reference image than any of the presets and will be a good starting point for when y'all buy a meter.
How can you make this claim when in fact if you were to put a meter up to someone else's TV with these settings they can surely be worse then what they would achieve using their default settings.
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post #2628 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Zoyd, does the "white balance" setting vary from one 8500 to another? I noticed you didn't list that setting in your settings writeup above.
Fine-tuning the white balance requires a meter, that's why I didn't list 10 pt. controls either (other than to tweak low end gamma) The custom color values are also just approximately what I have, since further fine-tuning of these also requires a meter.


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How can you make this claim when in fact if you were to put a meter up to someone else's TV with these settings they can surely be worse then what they would achieve using their default settings.
See above. Because these panels have certain predictable default behavior and I know which default settings are far enough away from reference that they will be beneficial to adjust without the use of a meter.
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post #2629 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Fine-tuning the white balance requires a meter, that's why I didn't list 10 pt. controls either (other than to tweak low end gamma) The custom color values are also just approximately what I have, since further fine-tuning of these also requires a meter.




See above. Because these panels have certain predictable default behavior and I know which default settings are far enough away from reference that they will be beneficial to adjust without the use of a meter.
Would love someone to put a meter on this to actually see if it brings them closer to a better calibration. I think this would be a first. With every panel behaving differently, some pushing green, some pushing red, etc I cannot imagine a universal settings fix to improve everyone's panel.

What size F8500 do you own by the way and are you suggesting your setting will improve any size or just the size you own?
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm skeptical
Zoyd, are these figures specifically for a certain size F8500?
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post #2631 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
there shouldn't be a 'veil' in movie mode. by all means, keep using standard, that's fine, it's still good. but there's likely some other setting that is responsible for what you're seeing.
I took a look at this with several sources using matched settings between movie mode and standard mode save for cell light, which I adjusted downwards in standard mode to match the peak whites of movie mode. There is no visual difference between the two modes. There is a small measurable difference in saturation tracking as I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Would love someone to put a meter on this to actually see if it brings them closer to a better calibration. I think this would be a first. With every panel behaving differently, some pushing green, some pushing red, etc I cannot imagine a universal settings fix to improve everyone's panel.

What size F8500 do you own by the way and are you suggesting your setting will improve any size or just the size you own?
I'm not sure why you think this is a "first", just like warm 2 is closer to spec across all models so are certain settings of the CMS based on the same primary chromaticities that Samsung uses. For gamma the standard is BT.1886 and gamma=-1 with the low end tweaks will be closer to that spec than gamma=0.
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post #2632 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I wonder if the veil you talk about is a sense of a whitish haze and a lack of "punch" or "pop" in your image in Movie mode?

The reason I ask is because on my Samsung F5300 panel, default out of box settings with Movie mode (and Warm2) felt a bit like that. The picture looked very nice and natural, but there was a bit of a whitish haze/muted look to it with the picture lacking some pop to it. I found that turning on Dynamic contrast actually made the picture look better which is obviously not right.

When I calibrated, I found out that the F5300 panel tends to be undersaturated with colors in the 25-75% saturation range while matching fairly well at 100% saturation with out of the box settings. When I tweaked the CMS settings to optimize the calibration for the 25-75% saturation range at the expense of accuracy at 100% saturation, the images and picture quality looked fantastic. The whitish haze was gone, colors and images on the whole had a lot more punch to them and turning on Dynamic contrast now looked worse with clear color clipping occuring due to the artificially added contrast enhancement.

I wonder if there might not be a similar thing going on with the uncalibrated F8500 panels.

Yeah looks a bit flat. It's not bad by any means just that the tv is capable of a more impressive picture.
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post #2633 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Would love someone to put a meter on this to actually see if it brings them closer to a better calibration. I think this would be a first. With every panel behaving differently, some pushing green, some pushing red, etc I cannot imagine a universal settings fix to improve everyone's panel.

What size F8500 do you own by the way and are you suggesting your setting will improve any size or just the size you own?
before I bought my meter I plugged in some calibration settings from another member(two different ones actually) and both of them were much closer than any of the defaults. still plenty of room for improvement, but it was a difference of the other user's calibration giving me dE's in the 3-5 range, where as the default settings were closer to 13-15!


for what it's worth, I calibrated mine with a starting point gamma of 0. I don't believe I ever checked -1, but 0 gave me this to start with:

I'm still finding it pretty difficult to dial in perfectly since my 10pt controls don't line up anymore(lower contrast setting?) but I did manage pretty respectable results starting with 0

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post #2634 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
before I bought my meter I plugged in some calibration settings from another member(two different ones actually) and both of them were much closer than any of the defaults. still plenty of room for improvement, but it was a difference of the other user's calibration giving me dE's in the 3-5 range, where as the default settings were closer to 13-15!


for what it's worth, I calibrated mine with a starting point gamma of 0. I don't believe I ever checked -1, but 0 gave me this to start with:

I'm still finding it pretty difficult to dial in perfectly since my 10pt controls don't line up anymore(lower contrast setting?) but I did manage pretty respectable results starting with 0
What meter are you using?
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post #2635 of 3586 Old 10-27-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
There's so many other owners wanting to use other owner's calibration settings on their tv's. I don't think they understand that these cal's don't create the same picture on their tv's that they do on the calibrated tv. I have tried nearly every cal posted on my tv, and the whites in warm 2 still are "dirty" whites. They are not brilliant whiter than white, like they are in Standard. it's like there's a "veil" over the whole tv while watching in Movie, warm 2. Warm 1, Movie mode really helps, but still doesn't approach the clarity/realism of Standard mode, Standard color temp provides.
By veil, do you also mean glossy with less detail? I found that in demo models at Best Buy so preferred the relax mode. Does this make any sense or were the settings on the demo unit screwed up? Tx.
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post #2636 of 3586 Old 10-28-2014, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Movie mode: warm 2 or warm 1. (warm 2 is closer to spec but may appear greenish at lower stimulus levels in which case use warm 1 instead)
Any reason to use Warm 1 instead of Warm 2 as a starting point for calibration?
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post #2637 of 3586 Old 10-28-2014, 03:08 AM
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Not if you have a meter.

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post #2638 of 3586 Old 10-28-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
before I bought my meter I plugged in some calibration settings from another member(two different ones actually) and both of them were much closer than any of the defaults. still plenty of room for improvement, but it was a difference of the other user's calibration giving me dE's in the 3-5 range, where as the default settings were closer to 13-15!


for what it's worth, I calibrated mine with a starting point gamma of 0. I don't believe I ever checked -1, but 0 gave me this to start with:

I'm still finding it pretty difficult to dial in perfectly since my 10pt controls don't line up anymore(lower contrast setting?) but I did manage pretty respectable results starting with 0
You're not going to get it any better than that and I have noticed it's typical for the the 90% point to drop a bit but as a result of a very small delta in luminance from the target that get's emphasized when plotted on a log ratio graph.

start from a slider position of gamma = -1 if you want the midtones at gamma=2.4, 0 for gamma=2.3, and +1 for gamma=2.2. The best fit to the BT.1886 function depends on what the actual measured black level is. For measured black levels around 0.025 cd/m^2 midtone gamma target would be ~2.3, for a measured black level of 0.01 cd/m^2 it would be closer to 2.4.
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post #2639 of 3586 Old 10-28-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by james9120 View Post
What meter are you using?
just an i1d3, nothing fancy

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #2640 of 3586 Old 10-28-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You're not going to get it any better than that and I have noticed it's typical for the the 90% point to drop a bit but as a result of a very small delta in luminance from the target that get's emphasized when plotted on a log ratio graph.

start from a slider position of gamma = -1 if you want the midtones at gamma=2.4, 0 for gamma=2.3, and +1 for gamma=2.2. The best fit to the BT.1886 function depends on what the actual measured black level is. For measured black levels around 0.025 cd/m^2 midtone gamma target would be ~2.3, for a measured black level of 0.01 cd/m^2 it would be closer to 2.4.
yeah i'm sure you're right. even if the graph looked better, the actual gamma wouldn't be. like my projector lines up nearly perfect, so I can get the graph looking mint. but between the points that are measured and adjusted, it varies slightly. with the f8500, the 10% intervals don't line up with the 10pt controls, so I am kind of measuring between the intervals anyway. so the graph doesn't look as good. but if I measured like 100pts instead, i'm sure both would be just as wavy.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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