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post #2791 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Anyone interested in doing some calibration on your own, B&H photo has an i1 Display Pro on sale for $175 plus an additional $25 mail in rebate making the price $150.

Cheapest I have ever seen this for. Use the link below to add to your cart and discount will be shown there. No tax for most people unless in the New York area.

Use the link below and find the meter on the page. Then click where it says use code at checkout:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/promot...l-savings.html

They also haveX-Rite ColorChecker Passport on sale for 69 plus a $10 mail in rebate. Is this software used to create profiles for your meter? Is it something that will work for calibrating a TV and make the meter more accurate?

great price on the meter.

the passport is for photography, not calibrating the meter. before you take your photos, you'd grab a few shots with your 'model' holding the passport. that gives you an exact reference point to get accurate colors afterwards. since lighting affects colors, this gives you a way to compensate for that.

the passport is of no use for calibrating displays
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post #2792 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
great price on the meter.

the passport is for photography, not calibrating the meter. before you take your photos, you'd grab a few shots with your 'model' holding the passport. that gives you an exact reference point to get accurate colors afterwards. since lighting affects colors, this gives you a way to compensate for that.

the passport is of no use for calibrating displays
Thank you. I wasn't sure if that was something that would profile the meter that I hear people talk about all the time.

How do people here not looking to spend a lot of money profile their meter or is it necessary if you just want a good calibration as opposed to a pro level cal although I think so many other things might effect the cal anyone for a beginner.
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post #2793 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Thank you. I wasn't sure if that was something that would profile the meter that I hear people talk about all the time.

How do people here not looking to spend a lot of money profile their meter or is it necessary if you just want a good calibration as opposed to a pro level cal although I think so many other things might effect the cal anyone for a beginner.
as far as i know, there's isn't a really cheap option.

i was considering getting a spectro instead of the colorimeter, i figured if the biggest issue with a spectro was the speed, i wasn't going to do calibrations often enough to really care(i didn't quite understand at the time that doing one calibration could mean 100's of measures...) and i'd rather pay 400-500 up front and be done with it, than spend 200 and then find out i still needed to spend the 400-500 anyway.

long story short, some very helpful members on this board recommended the i1d3 to start. they said it was a very capable meter to start with, and chances are it would be good enough for my needs(so far they were definitely right). it's supposed to maintain it's accuracy pretty well over time, so it shouldn't 'need' to be profiled every year, at least not for an enthusiast. i figured, 5yrs down the road, i'll either be totally hooked and be willing to spend a grand on a decent spectro, still be satisfied with the i1d3 and happy i didn't waste my money on a spectro, or worst case, i will have learned what i do and don't like in a meter, and know what to look for when replacing it.

i mean, i've spent more than 150bux on set up discs over the years, and they haven't done anything for me the FREE avs709 patterns can't. at least the meter(even a cheap one) has given me great results, and opened the door into a whole new world of calibration performance. on the negative side, it seems to have revealed some hidden OCD issues...
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post #2794 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Thank you. I wasn't sure if that was something that would profile the meter that I hear people talk about all the time.

How do people here not looking to spend a lot of money profile their meter or is it necessary if you just want a good calibration as opposed to a pro level cal although I think so many other things might effect the cal anyone for a beginner.
Profiling is not necessary to get really good results on plasmas but the cheapest way to do so would be to find somebody local to borrow an i1pro or i1pro 2 from.
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post #2795 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 06:22 PM
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I just bought a Samsung 60" f8500. I am hoping to find info regarding good viewing settings. I am hoping to skip reading 94 pages of a thread just to find some good settings. Also, I am hoping to find info regarding proper break in slide settings. Can someone direct me to what settings to run with the tv if I use break in slides. Are break in slides recommended or should I skip them? My last plasma was five years ago (Panny g25) and I'm out of date with the current recommendations.
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post #2796 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by alduflux View Post
I just bought a Samsung 60" f8500. I am hoping to find info regarding good viewing settings. I am hoping to skip reading 94 pages of a thread just to find some good settings. Also, I am hoping to find info regarding proper break in slide settings. Can someone direct me to what settings to run with the tv if I use break in slides. Are break in slides recommended or should I skip them? My last plasma was five years ago (Panny g25) and I'm out of date with the current recommendations.
i know how frustrating reading through a done of pages can be, but unfortunately, if you don't, then we would. most calibrations are listed pretty easy to see, so you don't actually have to read anything, just skim.

heck, you may be able to find them easier by searching the thread with keywords likely only to come up with a list of settings like "black optimizer", "white balance", or even just "contrast" or "brightness" if you don't want to risk missing any.

somebody posted a D-nice calibration for their 60" a while back(at least 4-5months) that i would recommend giving a shot.

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post #2797 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
long story short, some very helpful members on this board recommended the i1d3 to start. they said it was a very capable meter to start with, and chances are it would be good enough for my needs(so far they were definitely right).
Fierce, based on your recommendation I bought the i1d3. Can the i1d3 be connected to the HTPC that uses the F8500 for its display or must it be connected to another PC & display such as a laptop?

Last edited by bmcn; 11-02-2014 at 08:28 PM.
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post #2798 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by alduflux View Post
I just bought a Samsung 60" f8500. I am hoping to find info regarding good viewing settings. I am hoping to skip reading 94 pages of a thread just to find some good settings. Also, I am hoping to find info regarding proper break in slide settings. Can someone direct me to what settings to run with the tv if I use break in slides. Are break in slides recommended or should I skip them? My last plasma was five years ago (Panny g25) and I'm out of date with the current recommendations.
I recently used Evangelo's break-in slides on my F8500 and, after turning off most video processing options, reduced brightness and contrast to 50 when running the slides. I bought mine from an unauthorized dealer with a no return policy. If I bought the F8500 with a return option I probably wouldn't bother with the slides.

Last edited by bmcn; 11-02-2014 at 08:15 PM.
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post #2799 of 3157 Old 11-02-2014, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Fierce, based on your recommendation I bought the i1d3. Can the i1d3 be connected to the HTPC that uses the F8500 for its display or must it be connected to another PC & display such as a laptop?
you would need a secondary screen/display. The calibration program that you'll use has to be displayed on a different screen from your Samsung, because your will be displaying calibration patterns.

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post #2800 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 01:05 AM
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To make a long story short do not turn Black Optimizer on while calibrating. It took me an entire afternoon to figure this out. I was getting erratic readings from my i1D Pro at lower IRE (10, 20, 30) with it turned on. Now those readings are for the most part rock solid with if off. It was almost impossible to calibrate my 64F8500's grayscale with RGB values jumping all over the place.

Test it yourself. I used Chromapure and an i1D Pro 3 that had been profiled. Monitoring the RGB values at an IRE of 20, it was very obvious the RGB values were very inconsistent between measurements, lots of variance. Turn off Black Optimizer during testing and all of that will go away.

I'd also like to thank Tom Huffman for going above and beyond to help me with this problem. He tried to reproduced with his Panasonic and wasn't able too. He even sent me a movie showing how much more stable it was.

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Can you post some measurements, how are you operating the probe? Is it fixed integration time or adaptive?

I can not reproduce any unusual instability using HCFR and a display pro in either 10% or 20% patterns on my 8500 for the different black optimizer settings.

Average +/- 1 standard deviation xyY of 16 samples for each test.
Spoiler!
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post #2802 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 04:58 AM
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zoyd

Where did you wind up with the color setting (normally 50) after your calibration.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveWK View Post
To make a long story short do not turn Black Optimizer on while calibrating. It took me an entire afternoon to figure this out. I was getting erratic readings from my i1D Pro at lower IRE (10, 20, 30) with it turned on. Now those readings are for the most part rock solid with if off. It was almost impossible to calibrate my 64F8500's grayscale with RGB values jumping all over the place.

Test it yourself. I used Chromapure and an i1D Pro 3 that had been profiled. Monitoring the RGB values at an IRE of 20, it was very obvious the RGB values were very inconsistent between measurements, lots of variance. Turn off Black Optimizer during testing and all of that will go away.

I'd also like to thank Tom Huffman for going above and beyond to help me with this problem. He tried to reproduced with his Panasonic and wasn't able too. He even sent me a movie showing how much more stable it was.

Steve
One more thing to watch is that you've got brightness set correctly. If its set too low, then it'll be below the sensitivity threshold of your meter.

Turning black optimizer off raises the brightness level by changing frequency.

I think you're right about turning off black optimizer during calibrations. At least that's what most of the pro calibrators recommend on this forum.

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post #2804 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 05:10 AM
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JimP,


Does your black level still measure at .002 with firmware 1203 ?

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post #2805 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
zoyd

Where did you wind up with the color setting (normally 50) after your calibration.
For an effective 2.4 BT.1886 like function color=55 was optimal. For lower gamma curves it would probably be lower.

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I think you're right about turning off black optimizer during calibrations. At least that's what most of the pro calibrators recommend on this forum.
There are no published measurements to support this. I just posted some that directly contradict this assumption. It will make very little difference whether it's on or off.

Last edited by zoyd; 11-03-2014 at 07:15 AM.
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post #2806 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Fierce, based on your recommendation I bought the i1d3. Can the i1d3 be connected to the HTPC that uses the F8500 for its display or must it be connected to another PC & display such as a laptop?
I think it's easier if the meter is connected to a different pc than what's running the slides. but it's not necessary

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Originally Posted by nipalikewalnuts View Post
^IIRC The inbuilt screen wipe should not be used a 'lot' as it prematurely ages the screen.
Only to be used sparingly I hear.
it ages the screen like watching content does. so if you run it for an hour every week, it'll 'prematurely' add 52hrs of wear a year...


heck, I've 'prematurely aged' my screen more than that already while calibrating it, haha.


personally, I'd rather get 90% of the advertised life with a great picture all the way through, then 100% of the advertised life with issues

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Originally Posted by SteveWK View Post
To make a long story short do not turn Black Optimizer on while calibrating. It took me an entire afternoon to figure this out. I was getting erratic readings from my i1D Pro at lower IRE (10, 20, 30) with it turned on. Now those readings are for the most part rock solid with if off. It was almost impossible to calibrate my 64F8500's grayscale with RGB values jumping all over the place.

Test it yourself. I used Chromapure and an i1D Pro 3 that had been profiled. Monitoring the RGB values at an IRE of 20, it was very obvious the RGB values were very inconsistent between measurements, lots of variance. Turn off Black Optimizer during testing and all of that will go away.

I'd also like to thank Tom Huffman for going above and beyond to help me with this problem. He tried to reproduced with his Panasonic and wasn't able too. He even sent me a movie showing how much more stable it was.

Steve
YMMV but I did all my calibration with BO set to dark room. no issues noticed whatsoever.

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post #2809 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 08:35 AM
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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread.....

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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
There are no published measurements to support this. I just posted some that directly contradict this assumption. It will make very little difference whether it's on or off.
Agreed.
Seriously, I have a great eye for subtle screen changes, and I cannot see any changes to the screen when I cycle BO thru its settings....it's that subtle...[emoji50]
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post #2810 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 10:28 AM
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Agreed.
Seriously, I have a great eye for subtle screen changes, and I cannot see any changes to the screen when I cycle BO thru its settings....it's that subtle...[emoji50]
uh, i think it's pretty darn obvious under the right conditions.

with a dark scene paused, the difference between off/dark room should be very apparent. likewise, if you have contrast high(95-100) and a bright scene paused, the difference between off/bright room is like 10ftl, which should be easy to see.

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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread.....

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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
uh, i think it's pretty darn obvious under the right conditions.



with a dark scene paused, the difference between off/dark room should be very apparent. likewise, if you have contrast high(95-100) and a bright scene paused, the difference between off/bright room is like 10ftl, which should be easy to see.

Pausing on a dark or bright scene and toggling thru the BO setting does absolutely nothing "visually" to my screen. I see no discernible differences. I'd see a 10 ftL difference if it was there...

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To those of you who responded to my post, I'll follow up with more measurements when I get home from work. I do have a question concerning probe integration time. What is it? My uniformed brain tells me that it is an averaging technique where by the signal is integrated for over time t and then divided by time t, and an adaptive form of that would be to vary the integration time as a function of luminance.

Thanks,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveWK View Post
To those of you who responded to my post, I'll follow up with more measurements when I get home from work. I do have a question concerning probe integration time. What is it? My uniformed brain tells me that it is an averaging technique where by the signal is integrated for over time t and then divided by time t, and an adaptive form of that would be to vary the integration time as a function of luminance.

Thanks,
Steve
Good description! I don't know how Chromapure handles the d3 but in HCFR you can set the base integration time, 0.5 seconds is suggested. For bright patterns the integration time will then be 0.5 seconds but for darker patterns it increases based on luminance level. At 20% it'll be roughly 2 seconds and closer to 5 seconds for a 10% pattern.
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post #2814 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Pausing on a dark or bright scene and toggling thru the BO setting does absolutely nothing "visually" to my screen. I see no discernible differences. I'd see a 10 ftL difference if it was there...
somethings not right then.

these are measurable and confirmed findings. if your contrast is lower though, 90 or less, there's basically no change in brightness. it's most noticeable with contrast at 100, but still easily seen at 95.

i posted somewhere before(settings thread maybe?) of what i measured. i can't recall the exact numbers, but it was a large difference on both the MLL and peak whites. i personally find the difference in black levels more noticeable, but i don't have an overly bright calibration either.

but like i said before, it really needs to be under the right conditions. the pattern to set brightness is a good example. with 'average' content it's not going to show up clearly. i mean, with average content the black levels rise so much there probably ISN'T a difference. likewise on the other end, if you're looking at full field white, the ABL will trump the BO anyway. when looking at 100% field, i can't see much/any change. when looking at 100% window, the change is clear as day. again, with 'average' content, it's not going to show up all the time

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post #2815 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
it ages the screen like watching content does. so if you run it for an hour every week, it'll 'prematurely' add 52hrs of wear a year...


heck, I've 'prematurely aged' my screen more than that already while calibrating it, haha.


personally, I'd rather get 90% of the advertised life with a great picture all the way through, then 100% of the advertised life with issues
Actually it excites the phosphors up and down continually much more than watching regular full screen content, especially at high brightness and cell values.
That is why it is a feature you can use. If it were the same as watching content, it would not be an available feature.

From Samsung: "...you should use the Scrolling function only when there are after images on the screen of your TV."
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post #2816 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nipalikewalnuts View Post
Actually it excites the phosphors up and down continually much more than watching regular full screen content, especially at high brightness and cell values.
That is why it is a feature you can use. If it were the same as watching content, it would not be an available feature.

From Samsung: "...you should use the Scrolling function only when there are after images on the screen of your TV."
i'll buy that, but it's still the same idea. how many ppl actually 'wear out' tv's these days anyway?

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^ Yeah I hear you. Supposedly with blue phosphor aging quicker than the rest, it would certainly affect calibrations in the long run.
The frequency of re-calibrating would have to be higher to combat this.
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post #2818 of 3157 Old 11-03-2014, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Can you post some measurements, how are you operating the probe? Is it fixed integration time or adaptive?

I can not reproduce any unusual instability using HCFR and a display pro in either 10% or 20% patterns on my 8500 for the different black optimizer settings.

Average +/- 1 standard deviation xyY of 16 samples for each test.
Spoiler!
Here is some data I collected as well as some video I took showing the problem. Chromapure has a data smoothing function that will either average the samples over n samples or take the mean. The number of samples in each set, n, is a user input. During these measurements n=1 was used and therefore no smoothing occurred. This is the value to be used when performing an autocal.





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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
One more thing to watch is that you've got brightness set correctly. If its set too low, then it'll be below the sensitivity threshold of your meter.

Turning black optimizer off raises the brightness level by changing frequency.

I think you're right about turning off black optimizer during calibrations. At least that's what most of the pro calibrators recommend on this forum.
I'm sure my black level isn't too low. I normally put up a full field video black image and then start increasing the brightness until I see in increase in brightness and then click it down one notch.

A couple of other notes. I have a 2021 Lumagen Radiance that I use for test patterns and calibration. Yesterday I took it completely out of the loop and plugged my Oppo directly into the TV and used the AVSHD-709 disk for test patterns. I got the same results. I also tested on my Sony HX929 and it was solid as a rock.

I also somewhat embarrassingly need to mention my inability to stay out of the service menu. I have in the past changed values just to see what it would do and may have messed something up in the process. A good example is that damn HDMI calibration mode I got myself into this evening. Zoyd, you mentioned in another post that there is a way to get into Movie mode while in the service menu. I have the small Service Only remote and a Harmony Remote. I can't for the life of me figure out how to change it to Movie mode.

Thanks,
Steve
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post #2819 of 3157 Old 11-04-2014, 02:09 AM
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I received the Samsung 64F8500 on Friday, and great for movies, but found it somewhat lacking for sports and other videotape broadcasts, at least in the movie mode. So I experimented and currently like the following setting for sports, talks shows and other videotaped content. Try it and tell me what you think:


Relax Mode:


Cell light: 10
Contrast: 85
Brightness: 40
Sharpness: 50
Color: 50
Tint: 50


This mode does not give you access to Advanced Options, but for Picture Options I have the following:


Color Tone: Warm 1
Rest of settings off except Black Optimizer set to Dark Room, and HDMI Black Level set to Normal (greyed out at this setting).

Still experimenting, so maybe setting much better than this for content described. If so, recommendations appreciated. Also, feel free to tell me what you find unacceptable about this setting if you have this opinion.

Question: Are all the modes the same if you adjust the various settings to the same numbers, or is there something distinct in each of the four settings apart from the numbers? Thanks!

Last edited by igreg; 11-04-2014 at 02:12 AM.
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post #2820 of 3157 Old 11-04-2014, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveWK View Post
Here is some data I collected as well as some video I took showing the problem. Chromapure has a data smoothing function that will either average the samples over n samples or take the mean. The number of samples in each set, n, is a user input. During these measurements n=1 was used and therefore no smoothing occurred. This is the value to be used when performing an autocal.
yes, I see the difference between the two optimizer settings. The main problem you are having though is that the integration time is too short at those stimulus levels. Also, have you synced the probe to the display refresh rate? At these short integration times there could be different readings between the two modes because the panel is refreshed differently. As far as autocal goes if you are limited to a single sample at that integration time that would not be an optimal way to run this probe independent of the black optimizer setting.

Quote:
I also somewhat embarrassingly need to mention my inability to stay out of the service menu. I have in the past changed values just to see what it would do and may have messed something up in the process. A good example is that damn HDMI calibration mode I got myself into this evening. Zoyd, you mentioned in another post that there is a way to get into Movie mode while in the service menu. I have the small Service Only remote and a Harmony Remote. I can't for the life of me figure out how to change it to Movie mode.

Thanks,
Steve
What exactly did you change? I can describe how to enter the extended service mode if you need to.

Last edited by zoyd; 11-04-2014 at 04:18 AM.
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