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post #2971 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by aj32581 View Post

You are correct, but the Trolls just keep pushing these
lies that the ZT is also better at bright's.

Sorry but the ZT isn't the best at Everything and is NOT the 2013 VE SHOOTOUT winner.

Once the FACTS are clear and they quit trying to have the
last word on bright's I will move on.

I don't see one single person saying the ZT60 is better at "bright's", only that Chad - and possibly other calibrators - found the ability to calibrate them to over 50fL without clipping or sacrificing in other areas of picture quality that are noticeable. But go ahead and trot out other usernames of yours in order to try to bolster your "FACTS". How sad.
Quote:
No need to quote me twice. I already gave one potential explanation: Firmware updates (a simple factory reset might have resolved these errant panels...there's no way of knowing since we don't have all the information).

Chad said he recently calibrated an F8500 that was using current firmware and it measured as well as his early review unit did. So it seems firmware may not have anything to do with it, except that perhaps something can go wrong during the update process, but it doesn't sound like the FW version itself is affecting anything.
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post #2972 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 05:58 AM
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Here is a recap of what I have found working with a growing sample base of F8500s and VT/ZT60s in PB high. As with all plasmas, there is some sample to sample variation, as evidenced by using the same calibration techniques on all panels but getting somewhat different results:

The VT/ZT60 can achieve between 45 and 55 fL of peak light output using PB high, with typical black level measurements from .0014-.0017 fL (in 60 Hz, lower in 96 Hz) with or without content in other areas of the screen. The light output increase gained by using PB high is easily visible with most content, but not as visible with very bright scenes. The lower numbers quoted above by HDTV test are not at all surprising to me, because Panasonic's EU models have, at least since the 30 series, been much more limited in their brightness in the ISF modes compared to NA models.

The F8500 can achieve between about the mid 40s to the upper 60s fL of peak light output, with black level measurements from .007-.037 fL with content in other areas of the screen; lower with no content at all, though I do not pay as much attention to that result. This is a wide variance, obviously, which does not seem to be accounted for by FW revisions since recently I did 2 with the latest FW, one which measured .0076/mid to upper 60's (very close to the initial review sample) and the other which measured .026/50s. Though I have limited panel hours data, it does not seem the difference can be attributed to hours as both had between 100 and 300 hours on them. Again calibration technique was identical and room light was minimized for the black level measurements.

The F8500 still handily beats the VT/ZT60 in regards to ABL behavior, as I recently posted light output numbers here on AVS for various window sizes between an F8500 and a 60 series which I calibrated in PB high. This is likely to be a factor in very bright movie/TV scenes and hockey.
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post #2973 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Here is a recap of what I have found working with a growing sample base of F8500s and VT/ZT60s in PB high. As with all plasmas, there is some sample to sample variation, as evidenced by using the same calibration techniques on all panels but getting somewhat different results:

The VT/ZT60 can achieve between 45 and 55 fL of peak light output using PB high, with typical black level measurements from .0014-.0017 fL (in 60 Hz, lower in 96 Hz) with or without content in other areas of the screen. The light output increase gained by using PB high is easily visible with most content, but not as visible with very bright scenes. The lower numbers quoted above by HDTV test are not at all surprising to me, because Panasonic's EU models have, at least since the 30 series, been much more limited in their brightness in the ISF modes compared to NA models.

The F8500 can achieve between about the mid 40s to the upper 60s fL of peak light output, with black level measurements from .007-.037 fL with content in other areas of the screen; lower with no content at all, though I do not pay as much attention to that result. This is a wide variance, obviously, which does not seem to be accounted for by FW revisions since recently I did 2 with the latest FW, one which measured .0076/mid to upper 60's (very close to the initial review sample) and the other which measured .026/50s. Though I have limited panel hours data, it does not seem the difference can be attributed to hours as both had between 100 and 300 hours on them. Again calibration technique was identical and room light was minimized for the black level measurements.

The F8500 still handily beats the VT/ZT60 in regards to ABL behavior, as I recently posted light output numbers here on AVS for various window sizes between an F8500 and a 60 series which I calibrated in PB high. This is likely to be a factor in very bright movie/TV scenes and hockey.

Which mode did you find that gives best MLL for the F8500? Dark room or Auto?
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post #2974 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Which mode did you find that gives best MLL for the F8500? Dark room or Auto?
They give identical MLL readings with or without content, but Auto gives a light output boost of about 7-10 fL (which reminds me that the mid-40s result I quoted above for the F8500 may have been measured in DR, so they might have been able to reach over 50 in Auto).
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post #2975 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 08:19 AM
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I'd be more concerned with how a 8500 handles itself in a dark room environment. Not worth the price if it's not capable of the black levels in the initial reviews.
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post #2976 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

They give identical MLL readings with or without content, but Auto gives a light output boost of about 7-10 fL (which reminds me that the mid-40s result I quoted above for the F8500 may have been measured in DR, so they might have been able to reach over 50 in Auto).

Is there any reason not to use Auto in that case, other than you might not want the extra light output?
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post #2977 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 09:13 AM
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Not that I have seen.

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post #2978 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The problem is pg_ice doesn't have all of his facts together half of the time.

And there is no question a certain group of rabid Samsung F8500 fanboism exists on this forum who for the life of them cannot believe the Panasonics calibrates so well in high panel with what Chad has been achieving. They don't want to believe it. It's tears them up inside too much.

On the subject of pro calibrators i suspect a respected pro who doesn't post on the forums anymore doesn't so for a reason.

D-Nice.

Most remember his points/opinions and or technical reasons behind the KURO vs Panasonic debacle.

But to many Panasonic fanboys just didn't want to hear it or believe it.

And still don't.

If i was a betting man that is where my money would be as to the main reason as to why he doesn't post on any plasma forums on AVS nowadays. Because of the cloth eared types who don't want to hear it.

The facts.

Probably sick to the back teeth of hearing and responding to the Samsung vs Panasonic vs KURO and bursting bubbles along the way alongside the inevitable "?"why's and how's on plasma threads.
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post #2979 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

On the subject of pro calibrators i suspect a respected pro who doesn't post on the forums anymore doesn't so for a reason.

D-Nice.

Most remember his points/opinions and or technical reasons behind the KURO vs Panasonic debacle.

But to many Panasonic fanboys just didn't want to hear it or believe it.

And still don't.

If i was a betting man that is where my money would be as to the main reason as to why he doesn't post on any plasma forums on AVS nowadays. Because of the cloth eared types who don't want to hear it.

The facts.

Probably sick to the back teeth of hearing and responding to the Samsung vs Panasonic vs KURO and bursting bubbles along the way alongside the inevitable "?"why's and how's on plasma threads.

But you can still talk to him in person when utilizing his calibration services, one advantage of being on this side of the pond. So what's your point? Not getting it since I don't know of any comments DNice has made outside of the Shootout and in my home regarding Pioneer and Panasonic for Panny models made this year. Plus you have new information coming out thanks to Chad sharing what he is learning. While not similar to service menu tweaks, it does remind me of things that people learned as they had more time with the 9th (and 9.5) gen Kuros. Where have I heard that said before - oh yea, Vinnie your fact checker eek.gif

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post #2980 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 11:47 AM
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^^

My point is - just exactly what i said and you just confirmed.
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post #2981 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Here is a recap of what I have found working with a growing sample base of F8500s and VT/ZT60s in PB high. As with all plasmas, there is some sample to sample variation, as evidenced by using the same calibration techniques on all panels but getting somewhat different results:

The VT/ZT60 can achieve between 45 and 55 fL of peak light output using PB high, with typical black level measurements from .0014-.0017 fL (in 60 Hz, lower in 96 Hz) with or without content in other areas of the screen. The light output increase gained by using PB high is easily visible with most content, but not as visible with very bright scenes. The lower numbers quoted above by HDTV test are not at all surprising to me, because Panasonic's EU models have, at least since the 30 series, been much more limited in their brightness in the ISF modes compared to NA models.

The F8500 can achieve between about the mid 40s to the upper 60s fL of peak light output, with black level measurements from .007-.037 fL with content in other areas of the screen; lower with no content at all, though I do not pay as much attention to that result. This is a wide variance, obviously, which does not seem to be accounted for by FW revisions since recently I did 2 with the latest FW, one which measured .0076/mid to upper 60's (very close to the initial review sample) and the other which measured .026/50s. Though I have limited panel hours data, it does not seem the difference can be attributed to hours as both had between 100 and 300 hours on them. Again calibration technique was identical and room light was minimized for the black level measurements.

The F8500 still handily beats the VT/ZT60 in regards to ABL behavior, as I recently posted light output numbers here on AVS for various window sizes between an F8500 and a 60 series which I calibrated in PB high. This is likely to be a factor in very bright movie/TV scenes and hockey.


This confirms what my eyes were seeing last year; the black levels of the f8500 are even worse than the older panasonic VT50 model from the previous year with any content actually on the screen.
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post #2982 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Well, it's all about value per dollar. If I had a choice of buying a 64 inch F8500 at $3100 or a 55 inch curved OLED at $4300, (at Frys) I would buy the OLED, burn-ins be damned. But of course, that's not the price I'll be paying for the F8500, but still, cost-value proposition seems to be better with the OLED. Of course, with this kind of economy, it doesn't exactly work that way and we would only be willing to spend on the lower price bracket even if that means giving up some value for dollar. For examply, for someone who can only spend MAX of $500, it doesn't matter how much better the 1080p plasmas are, he will have to settle with a 1024x768 plasma.

Like you, the current price of $4600 little more than I'm willing to pay, but my impulse buy range is about lower than $2999 so we'll see. If those OLEDs also had great input lag, I would be more agonizing, but thankfully yet, they don't. smile.gif I would also have to also worry about REAL burn-ins unlike plasmas which I can abuse all day.

When did you see the 1080p 55EA9800 advertised by Fry's Electronics for $4300? Their web site has a list price of $5997.99

The 4K UHD 55EC9800 is anticipated to go for $8999 MSRP.

9" is a lot of real estate to give up. I paid 57 % less for my 64F8500 than Fry's list price for the 55EA9800.

Since 4K UHD is supposedly the future of flat-panel/curved displays why would you spend nearly $6K for a 1080p OLED?
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post #2983 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

On the subject of pro calibrators i suspect a respected pro who doesn't post on the forums anymore doesn't so for a reason.

D-Nice.

Most remember his points/opinions and or technical reasons behind the KURO vs Panasonic debacle.

But to many Panasonic fanboys just didn't want to hear it or believe it.

And still don't.

If i was a betting man that is where my money would be as to the main reason as to why he doesn't post on any plasma forums on AVS nowadays. Because of the cloth eared types who don't want to hear it.

The facts.

Probably sick to the back teeth of hearing and responding to the Samsung vs Panasonic vs KURO and bursting bubbles along the way alongside the inevitable "?"why's and how's on plasma threads.

Chad is as respected and reputable as any professional calibrator in the U.S. His large following and very high favorable ratings from his clientele as seen on AVS is not coincidental.

If a select group of F8500 fanboys cannot accept the truth of what a top calibrator is finding and able to accomplish, that's their loss in denying reality and speaks to their character.
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post #2984 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:14 PM
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Chad have you done any calibrations on the F8500 in PC mode. And if you have how much does the picture quality suffer compared to normal settings?

I do all my viewing through a HTPC so input lag is an important factor for me.
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post #2985 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:29 PM
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"How does the F8500 look after all the tweaks have been made? Majestic, with bright scenes oodling pop and excitement like I've never seen on a large plasma. It's textures are smooth, devoid of graininess. Colors look very lifelike, but on the polite side of accurate. Blacks and contrast are excellent, though not a substitute for the late, great Kuro king. The black bars are just visible with letterbox movies, but only in a dark room. Because of the way bright objects change our perception, the bars tend to be more visible with dark movie scenes than bright ones. Shadow detail is superb, looking correct in intensity and neutral in color. Resolution and sharpness are as good as I've seen.

I've calibrated many Panasonic 65VT50s, with the last one being just a couple of days ago. Though I did not have one available for a side by side comparison, I know it extremely well and can give impressions of how it and the F8500 compare.

Compared to the VT50 calibrated in the normal fashion of ISF Day using mid panel brightness, the F8500 is punchier in bright scenes. It is also a bit smoother, especially up close. The VT50 has slightly superior color accuracy, though it looks a bit more “hot” and colored with skin tones than the F8500's more relaxed color palette. If you are easily offended by the sunburnt look skin tones have on many displays, the F8500's less saturated but still seductive colors will be like a soothing balm on your eyes. The VT50's blacks are superior, though subjectively they appear extremely close. Dark movie scenes in dark rooms may show the VT50's slightly superior blacks. Motion quality will depend on if you use Cinema Smooth or not, but I prefer the VT50's motion overall. The F8500's edge in brightness makes it superior in slightly brighter rooms or if you just like brighter images.

The F8500 is a winner, with special appeal to lovers of bright and punchy images. It's color was very natural and easy on the eyes, and over all it's performance keeps pace with the very best."

Chad B

(Review: Samsung PN-64F8500 plasma)
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post #2986 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

"How does the F8500 look after all the tweaks have been made? Majestic, with bright scenes oodling pop and excitement like I've never seen on a large plasma. It's textures are smooth, devoid of graininess. Colors look very lifelike, but on the polite side of accurate. Blacks and contrast are excellent, though not a substitute for the late, great Kuro king. The black bars are just visible with letterbox movies, but only in a dark room. Because of the way bright objects change our perception, the bars tend to be more visible with dark movie scenes than bright ones. Shadow detail is superb, looking correct in intensity and neutral in color. Resolution and sharpness are as good as I've seen.

I've calibrated many Panasonic 65VT50s, with the last one being just a couple of days ago. Though I did not have one available for a side by side comparison, I know it extremely well and can give impressions of how it and the F8500 compare.

Compared to the VT50 calibrated in the normal fashion of ISF Day using mid panel brightness, the F8500 is punchier in bright scenes. It is also a bit smoother, especially up close. The VT50 has slightly superior color accuracy, though it looks a bit more “hot” and colored with skin tones than the F8500's more relaxed color palette. If you are easily offended by the sunburnt look skin tones have on many displays, the F8500's less saturated but still seductive colors will be like a soothing balm on your eyes. The VT50's blacks are superior, though subjectively they appear extremely close. Dark movie scenes in dark rooms may show the VT50's slightly superior blacks. Motion quality will depend on if you use Cinema Smooth or not, but I prefer the VT50's motion overall. The F8500's edge in brightness makes it superior in slightly brighter rooms or if you just like brighter images.

The F8500 is a winner, with special appeal to lovers of bright and punchy images. It's color was very natural and easy on the eyes, and over all it's performance keeps pace with the very best."

Chad B

If you weren't using the Black Optimizer on the 8500, the VT50 probably would have slightly better blacks in a dark viewing environment.

Which more or less underscores what I've been saying all along...if you don't use the BO on the Samsung, there is really no point in forking over that kind of cash.
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post #2987 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:50 PM
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With BO ON the black levels with content displayed on the screen are still not as good as the VT50's - and yes it is slight. To me, slight only mattered since I wasn't completely satisfied with my vt50 black level performance. The vt60 satisfies me, but not competely. I hope OLED will provide the total satisfaction in PQ I am looking for.
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post #2988 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

"How does the F8500 look after all the tweaks have been made? Majestic, with bright scenes oodling pop and excitement like I've never seen on a large plasma. It's textures are smooth, devoid of graininess. Colors look very lifelike, but on the polite side of accurate. Blacks and contrast are excellent, though not a substitute for the late, great Kuro king. The black bars are just visible with letterbox movies, but only in a dark room. Because of the way bright objects change our perception, the bars tend to be more visible with dark movie scenes than bright ones. Shadow detail is superb, looking correct in intensity and neutral in color. Resolution and sharpness are as good as I've seen.

I've calibrated many Panasonic 65VT50s, with the last one being just a couple of days ago. Though I did not have one available for a side by side comparison, I know it extremely well and can give impressions of how it and the F8500 compare.

Compared to the VT50 calibrated in the normal fashion of ISF Day using mid panel brightness, the F8500 is punchier in bright scenes. It is also a bit smoother, especially up close. The VT50 has slightly superior color accuracy, though it looks a bit more “hot” and colored with skin tones than the F8500's more relaxed color palette. If you are easily offended by the sunburnt look skin tones have on many displays, the F8500's less saturated but still seductive colors will be like a soothing balm on your eyes. The VT50's blacks are superior, though subjectively they appear extremely close. Dark movie scenes in dark rooms may show the VT50's slightly superior blacks. Motion quality will depend on if you use Cinema Smooth or not, but I prefer the VT50's motion overall. The F8500's edge in brightness makes it superior in slightly brighter rooms or if you just like brighter images.

The F8500 is a winner, with special appeal to lovers of bright and punchy images. It's color was very natural and easy on the eyes, and over all it's performance keeps pace with the very best."

Chad B

(Review: Samsung PN-64F8500 plasma)
Nothing in there that anyone would argue with so not sure where you are going with this.

Also, this is the ZT60 vs. F8500 thread. What does the F8500 comparison to the VT50 have to do with the topic of this thread? If you want to compare 2012 models in this thread shouldn't it be the E8000 vs. the VT50?
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You're going to see more black floating with BO on if you are susceptible to seeing it.

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post #2990 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:54 PM
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Nothing in there that anyone would argue with so not sure where you are going with this.

Also, this is the ZT60 vs. F8500 thread. What does the F8500 comparison to the VT50 have to do with the topic of this thread? If you want to compare 2012 models in this thread shouldn't it be the E8000 vs. the VT50?

Someone has already brought the Kuro into this too. lol

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post #2991 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

With BO ON the black levels with content displayed on the screen are still not as good as the VT50's - and yes it is slight. To me, slight only mattered since I wasn't completely satisfied with my vt50 black level performance. The vt60 satisfies me, but not competely. I hope OLED will provide the total satisfaction in PQ I am looking for.

That goes against the grain of every pro review that I've read concerning the 8500 and VT50. Have you owned both? Maybe you were stuck with one of the mystery Samsungs.
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post #2992 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:00 PM
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Just think people, right around this time of year we would normally be starting threads on new plasmas. Now we are bickering over the corpse of plasma technology. Sadness.
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post #2993 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:15 PM
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Just think people, right around this time of year we would normally be starting threads on new plasmas. Now we are bickering over the corpse of plasma technology. Sadness.
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post #2994 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:21 PM
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....Well


at least people stopped talking about that garbage, Sharp Elite. biggrin.gif
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post #2995 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Just think people, right around this time of year we would normally be starting threads on new plasmas. Now we are bickering over the corpse of plasma technology. Sadness.

But the "Walking Dead" is one of my favorite programs.

How many seasons have Rick and crew been dodging zombies in GA? You'd think they would have killed them off by now.

With references such as:

"The VT50's blacks are superior, though subjectively they appear extremely close."

and

"for critical viewing in a dimly-lit environment, the Panasonic ZT65/ZT60 is just a hair’s breadth better"

I'm surprised the ZT/VT fan boy's remain so vocally adament about the superiority of their PDPs.

At least when the Pioneer Kuro displays came out it was very apparent they rendered blacks that were superior to the rest of the competition.
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post #2996 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Just think people, right around this time of year we would normally be starting threads on new plasmas. Now we are bickering over the corpse of plasma technology. Sadness.
And to add to that, I think it is great that at least we have some really great plasma's to take us out with. Whichever one you chose whether it is was the F8500, ZT60 or VT60 they all offer a stunning picture that I do not think really disappoints anyone. Even if the F8500 takes a small hit in black levels, it still offers a great picture and how anyone wouldn't just enjoy watching a movie on it is beyond me.

The problem is to many people here do not know how to watch a movie, they only know how to watch colors, black levels, contrast levels, floating blacks, etc. I know because I am guilty of it as well but once you stop watching for everything that makes up the picture and actually watch the picture, these TV's offer such a good viewing experience and I do not understand why anyone would not be happy with anyone of these TV's.

We are getting worked up over which TV is the best of the best TV's. Think about all the people who will never own a TV like this in their home and here we have people saying they would never own an F8500 or a ZT60. We sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. lol

I think we should all agree we have the best plamsa's and probably best TV's of 2013 and maybe all time and it really shouldn't matter which one is considered to be the better one. There is room for more then one winner in this game.
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post #2997 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Just think people, right around this time of year we would normally be starting threads on new plasmas. Now we are bickering over the corpse of plasma technology. Sadness.

the State of the Art is always changing

many come to AVS to learn of the latest technology news: and run into endless bickering as evidenced in this thread...we would all be best served by limiting posts to technical issues

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #2998 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

....Well


at least people stopped talking about that garbage, Sharp Elite. biggrin.gif

Better get used to seeing more of "that garbage", FALD is looking increasingly like it will be the only option for a "high end" set. And FWIW, a properly calibrated Elite can look absolutely incredible (and 70" too!)
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post #2999 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Better get used to seeing more of "that garbage", FALD is looking increasingly like it will be the only option for a "high end" set. And FWIW, a properly calibrated Elite can look absolutely incredible (and 70" too!)

It was a good looking set, but the pricing was an absolute joke. It was around for a year and a half. My favorite FALD were the late sony XBRs.
Hopefully I have no TV failures, because I don't see the need of another TV for anything short of 6 years. I'm sure OLED will be approachable by then.

I'm just here for the LOLs to be truthful.
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post #3000 of 3105 Old 03-24-2014, 03:11 PM
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MORE off topic posts removed. I'm not kidding. Discuss the topic and NOT EACH OTHER OR ANY OTHER MEMBER.

Last chance.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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