F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 102 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3031 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

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Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

I think that F8500 is still a great tv. Furthermore, it is a better choice than ZT60 for some people because of their primary viewing environments (very bright room) and/or personal preferences (brighter whites and less aggressive ABL).

Well, I finally got caught up from a couple of weeks ago and I guess I'll never know about those removed posts. The above about sums it up except for two qualifiers, 1) I think it's pointless to get any highly regarded TV for a very bight room and 2) The F8500 also has a strength with SD/480P content.

I never argued that the ZT60 wasn't the better TV, I do however think the F8500 would have better suited me (if it wasn't for its wide base and all the non picture features you're forced to pay for). Here's hoping Vizio's P series is a winner.

I agree that if someone always watches a TV in a very bright room, it would not make much sense to buy a high quality set. However, I still think that it makes sense to buy a high quality set if one has money to spare and plans to occasionally watch a TV in light controlled environment.

I might be in minority, but I have not watched SD content in years. My main usages are HD gaming (PS3, PS4, XBOX360), local HD broadcasts (through my antenna and TIVO HD), streaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu Plus), and an occasional blu ray movie. I also enjoy 3D(both games and movies).

I agree with you on the F8500 stand. My previous main tv was 34 inch Sony XBR960 CRT. I my TV stand very closely matches dimensions of my XBR960. I was able to remove the XBR960 and put 65 inch ZT60 on the stand with no issues. ZT60 actually looks great on this stand. I definitely would not be able to use my old TV stand with F8500, and I would have to rearrange my room furniture to accommodate a wider TV stand for F8500. This is a major blunder by Samsung design team in my opinion. I was hoping that now scrapped H7000 would address this issue.
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post #3032 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 04:06 PM
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Oh no, he didn't. wink.gif Hey, Hunk, calibration can make a world of difference, and some Kuros have shown to develop rising blacks (others red tint) over time. This requires fidgeting around in the service menu, adjusting voltages, and/or factory resetting to resolve it. I would argue that the Kuro and ZT are on equal footing.on most everything (with the exception that some Kuros can go blacker, they have slightly better film-like motion and probably suffer a little less in the way of ABL; the ZT is bigger, supposedly has more in the way of gradations, this being of questionable benefit with the limitations of the current colorspace/8-bit structure, and some have reported less black crush, though Kuro loyalists will say this was also the result of an uncalibrated set or poor calibration...oh, and 3D of course for those who enjoy it).

Concerning the crisper/cleaner comments of the F8500, that emanates from the brighter screen, the less pronounced ABL, and the image processing algorithms employed.

I am not an expert on Kuros, but my understanding is that only voltage tweaked 9G Kuros outperform ZT black levels. It would be interesting to see how things shake out after ZT warranties expire and users/calibrators will become more adventures in ZTs service menus. Perhaps, people will find ways to improve ZT black levels farther and reduce ABL behavior.
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post #3033 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 04:22 PM
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Also, in HDTVTest ZT60 review, they briefly talk about ZT vs Kuro motion handling.
Quote:

Motion performance is excellent, with 1080 lines being reproduced cleanly for the most part in a resolution scroll test, and false contours during motion being kept at a very low level. Fast motion still reveals dithering, but that’s the nature of a plasma display, and Panasonic’s panel driving is the cleanest on the market, striking a very fine balance between injecting dither during motion to conceal contouring, and degrading static parts of the image.

There will still be viewers who prefer Pioneer’s “PURE” panel driving method, which featured degraded overall gradation and increased noise (a coarser image) in exchange for more consistency between static and moving performance. We’re aware of the benefits and disadvantages of both approaches and prefer Panasonic’s, which produces a very clean image with only small false contouring artefacts during motion. This is the best sweet spot, in our opinion, and it makes a real difference for users who sit close to the screen (video gamers being the most obvious example).

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm?page=Performance

It sounds to me that it is a matter of preference regarding ZT vs Kuro motion handling.
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post #3034 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 04:36 PM
 
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What is it you want me to say?

If you care to read back a few posts you will see that i said i had seen (both) displays and had said (both) were good.

But if you want me to lie and say that it's/they are better than the KURO then you are in for a long wait - because if i thought that for a second i wouldn't have bought the at the time (hours old) KRPM nine months ago and would have gone for something else instead.

Here's my observation on the top 3 Plasmas... I have a 60" 6020 Kuro (bought new in 1/10), and a 65" ZT60, which I'm contemplating selling to buy the 8500 instead...

First off, They all look great.

However, the ZT and the 8500 have much inkier blacks than my Kuro.
The 8500 looks much crisper/cleaner in 3 different Magnolias I've viewed them in, than both the Kuro and the ZT...
To me, it looks as If Kuro's weren't discontinued, they would look like the ZT. It does everything the Kuro does but better.
All three have excellent clear images, good colors etc, but the Kuros are a tad on the soft side, and just not as clear.
It's funny how members of the Kuro cult just wont let go of the past, lol... Skin looks like clay on the Kuro in comparison... (no pores show like the newer models... bad for actors, but more realistic for us)

We must be looking at different displays then.

Not quite sure what prototype ZT that never made the market you were looking at lol - but the KRP'S are razor sharp in comparison.

If Panasonic had pulled out all the stops and actually put the money into the panel quality and components of the real Pioneers (circa 2008), instead of relying on the emperor's new clothes... Then you're point may actually have been a valid one instead of a buyers remorse/disappointment with the touch of delusion that it so obviously displays.

And by the way - you say you viewed them all in Magnolia

That says it all really.

For a start - edge enhancement, incorrect light output (and) colour saturation will have all been through the roof.

Oh dear.
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post #3035 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

I am not an expert on Kuros, but my understanding is that only voltage tweaked 9G Kuros outperform ZT black levels. It would be interesting to see how things shake out after ZT warranties expire and users/calibrators will become more adventures in ZTs service menus. Perhaps, people will find ways to improve ZT black levels farther and reduce ABL behavior.
The 500M and 100FD sets go deeper right out of the box (0.0005 ftL). It seems the service menu of the Panasonics is not lending itself to the hackability of the Pioneers, but maybe that will change over time.
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post #3036 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 05:09 PM
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Oh no, he didn't. wink.gif

Oh yes he did. It didn't take long for his opinion to get disparaged. Ouch. But I guess Stu didn't appreciate the "It's funny how members of the Kuro cult just wont let go of the past, lol" remark.

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We must be looking at different displays then.

Not quite sure what prototype ZT that never made the market you were looking at lol - but the KRP'S are razor sharp in comparison.

If Panasonic had pulled out all the stops and actually put the money into the panel quality and components of the real Pioneers (circa 2008), instead of relying on the emperor's new clothes... Then you're point may actually have been a valid one instead of a buyers remorse/disappointment with the touch of delusion that it so obviously displays.

And by the way - you say you viewed them all in Magnolia

That says it all really.

For a start - edge enhancement, incorrect light output (and) colour saturation will have all been through the roof.

Oh dear.
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post #3037 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 05:13 PM
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Thanks for proving my point. Nothing but a cult member that cannot accept that the new TVs are better, lol.

And,no, I didn't say I viewed them all in Magnolia... I said I viewed the 8500 in three different Magnolias, all with different lighting, from plenty of ambient lighting to dark.

I own a Kuro and the ZT, watched them side by side, in all types of lighting, and if you honestly think the ZT isn't a much clearer picture, you're simply in denial.

PS - when's the next sacrifice of the lamb? Lol
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post #3038 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 07:56 PM
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D-Nice and Jeff Meier (UMR) are not cult members and both are top touring calibrators , unrelated in any way , both rate all 9G Pionner Plasmas to have better PQ than the Panasonic ZT/VT , @ the last value electronics shootout the was another calibrator from tweak tv that stated the Pioneer was still the reference display.
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post #3039 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 08:57 PM
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D-Nice and Jeff Meier (UMR) are not cult members and both are top touring calibrators , unrelated in any way , both rate all 9G Pionner Plasmas to have better PQ than the Panasonic ZT/VT , @ the last value electronics shootout the was another calibrator from tweak tv that stated the Pioneer was still the reference display.

And David Katzmaier, also a certified calibrator who heads up the CNET team, prefers the ZT. This is a very subjective topic and we can debate this subject all day long and we will continue to get different opinions from different experts. Maybe it's time to just call it a draw and move on guys. wink.gif


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post #3040 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

D-Nice and Jeff Meier (UMR) are not cult members and both are top touring calibrators , unrelated in any way , both rate all 9G Pionner Plasmas to have better PQ than the Panasonic ZT/VT , @ the last value electronics shootout the was another calibrator from tweak tv that stated the Pioneer was still the reference display.

Can you please provide link(s) to D-Nice's and Jeff Meier's statements regarding Kuro 9g picture quality superiority over ZT? I would love to read these.
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post #3041 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 09:41 PM
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Can you please provide link(s) to D-Nice's and Jeff Meier's statements regarding Kuro 9g picture quality superiority over ZT? I would love to read these.

You're kinda late to that conversation. But there are an endless number of threads/debates that can be dug up on it.
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post #3042 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

D-Nice and Jeff Meier (UMR) are not cult members and both are top touring calibrators , unrelated in any way , both rate all 9G Pionner Plasmas to have better PQ than the Panasonic ZT/VT , @ the last value electronics shootout the was another calibrator from tweak tv that stated the Pioneer was still the reference display.

And David Katzmaier, also a certified calibrator who heads up the CNET team, prefers the ZT. This is a very subjective topic and we can debate this subject all day long and we will continue to get different opinions from different experts. Maybe it's time to just call it a draw and move on guys. wink.gif


Ian

It is not just David Katzmaier either.

AVForum review by Steve Withers
Quote:

Moving on to Blu-ray and naturally we were blown away, with a viewing of Django Unchained replicating Tarantino’s blood-stained Western carnage in every detail. When it comes to picture quality, Pixar’s Blu-rays are a high watermark and watching their latests collection of shorts was nothing short of jaw-dropping. The perfectly replicated CG animation revealed the P60ZT65‘s incredible levels of detail, colour reproduction and motion handling, all of which were nothing short of sublime. We know people are going to ask this so we’ll pre-empt the obvious question. Yes, we compared the P60ZT65 directly with our KURO and, yes the P60ZT65 is superior - so there you have it.

http://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-zt65-zt60-tx-p60zt65-3d-plasma-tv-review.520

Sound and Vision review
Quote:

the bottom line is that this new Panasonic flagship can take a direct comparison to a Pioneer Kuro and come out, if not on top, at least very much on equal footing. And the Panasonic still had enough headroom for a slightly brighter picture if you need it (though not much more—super brightness is still an LCD show); the Pioneer in its preferred Pure mode was pretty much maxed out at the roughly 32 ft-L used in the comparisons.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-3d-plasma-hdtv-page-2

hdtvtest zt60 re-review
Quote:

Ah yes, the ghost of Pioneer’s legendary Kuro plasmas that just wouldn’t die. Of course, these screens are no longer available to buy from new (and have been so for a good few years now), but existing owners may be wondering if they should swap for the Panasonic TX-P60ZT65B before stock runs out. For what it’s worth, the Pioneers can go brighter (energy regulations weren’t as strict in 2008-2009), and exhibit less DFC than the Panasonics. Astonishingly, select Kuro models can produce even deeper blacks than the ZT.

In Panasonic’s favour, its ZT60/ZT65 features superior anti-reflective filter, allowing the TV to hang onto its supreme blacks in the presence of surrounding ambient light, which makes it more suitable for use in a bright room during daytime. Panasonic plasmas also manifest less static dither and no high-frequency rolloff compared with the Kuros. At the end of the day however, the performance between these reference-level displays are so close – hairsplitting in fact – that we think the Panasonic TX-P60ZT65 is a viable replacement for Kuro plasmas whose 5-year guarantee would expire this year or next.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt-201403233655.htm
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post #3043 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

It is not just David Katzmaier either.

AVForum review by Steve Withers
http://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-zt65-zt60-tx-p60zt65-3d-plasma-tv-review.520

Sound and Vision review
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-3d-plasma-hdtv-page-2

hdtvtest zt60 re-review
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt-201403233655.htm

Sigh.

It's perfectly fine to compare the ZT to the 9g Kuro. It is at least equal to, or surpasses, the 9g in several areas.

It is also perfectly fine to say the "9.5g" Kuro is at least equal to, or surpasses, the ZT in several areas.

Man this is an old topic.

I just wish plasma development would have continued past 2013. If you would have told me back in 2008/2009 that you could get a kick-ass 60-65" plasma for the price of a 50" Kuro, I would have told you that you were nuts. Who knows what we could have got this year.
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post #3044 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

It is not just David Katzmaier either.

AVForum review by Steve Withers
http://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-zt65-zt60-tx-p60zt65-3d-plasma-tv-review.520

Sound and Vision review
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-3d-plasma-hdtv-page-2

hdtvtest zt60 re-review
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt-201403233655.htm

Sigh.

It's perfectly fine to compare the ZT to the 9g Kuro. It is at least equal to, or surpasses, the 9g in several areas.

It is also perfectly fine to say the "9.5g" Kuro is at least equal to, or surpasses, the ZT in several areas.

Man this is an old topic.

I just wish plasma development would have continued past 2013. If you would have told me back in 2008/2009 that you could get a kick-ass 60-65" plasma for the price of a 50" Kuro, I would have told you that you were nuts. Who knows what we could have got this year.

I see nothing wrong with discussing an old topic as long as discussion is respectful and is based on facts.

Yeah, it is a shame that plasma is pretty much done for. Soon, this sub forum will become a ghost town just like CRT sub forum. frown.gif
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post #3045 of 3156 Old 04-05-2014, 11:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Sigh.

It's perfectly fine to compare the ZT to the 9g Kuro. It is at least equal to, or surpasses, the 9g in several areas.

It is also perfectly fine to say the "9.5g" Kuro is at least equal to, or surpasses, the ZT in several areas.

Man this is an old topic.

I just wish plasma development would have continued past 2013. If you would have told me back in 2008/2009 that you could get a kick-ass 60-65" plasma for the price of a 50" Kuro, I would have told you that you were nuts. Who knows what we could have got this year.
I agree with your summation. I think an ancillary point is, what is reference PQ is not decided by two calibrators just because someone decides to shut their ears to dissenting opinions. It's the height of elitism and snobbery.
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We must be looking at different displays then.

Not quite sure what prototype ZT that never made the market you were looking at lol - but the KRP'S are razor sharp in comparison.

If Panasonic had pulled out all the stops and actually put the money into the panel quality and components of the real Pioneers (circa 2008), instead of relying on the emperor's new clothes... Then you're point may actually have been a valid one instead of a buyers remorse/disappointment with the touch of delusion that it so obviously displays.

And by the way - you say you viewed them all in Magnolia

That says it all really.

For a start - edge enhancement, incorrect light output (and) colour saturation will have all been through the roof.

Oh dear.


Panasonic took the straight road and never compromised on quality like you say, even circa 2008 I preferred the "Panasonic look" with a wider index of colors, do you think their business customers would want an image quantized down to 14^3 unique colors? for some people that is too few no matter how you slice it, you shouldn't take such short cuts if you want the wider acceptance of plasma technology but people here only focus on one use case and want quick fixes rather than gradual advancement, the home theater bubble was a death trap for plasma and there should have been a bigger effort to move into other markets

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^Not a chance with plasma's penchant for IR and uneven wear. I'm afraid this will ultimately make OLED as another self-emissive tech stillborn. frown.gif
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Panasonic took the straight road and never compromised on quality like you say, even circa 2008 I preferred the "Panasonic look" with a wider index of colors, do you think their business customers would want an image quantized down to 14^3 unique colors? for some people that is too few no matter how you slice it, you shouldn't take such short cuts if you want the wider acceptance of plasma technology but people here only focus on one use case and want quick fixes rather than gradual advancement, the home theater bubble was a death trap for plasma and there should have been a bigger effort to move into other markets

Perhaps

I have never seen the real world affect though of this color.

But like D-NICE said in the 2013 shootout, the absolute colour accuracy/tracking is still better on the KURO's. Panasonic very close - but if talking about charts etc Pioneer still ahead.

He mentioned Pioneer engineers simply got the math correct (or more correct than Panasonic engineers.

Presumably that is why the KURO'S didn't need as many bamboozling calibration controls. Because hey are inherently more accurate to begin with. I know the monitors had slightly more than the ELITE TV's but all are massively accurate.

Anyone who says skin tones on a Kuro aren't possible needs their head examined and/or calibration skills brushing up.

Stu
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post #3049 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 03:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

You're kinda late to that conversation. But there are an endless number of threads/debates that can be dug up on it.

That's true.

Fortunately there are true independent experts out there who have seen/calibrated goodness knows how many displays - who aren't afraid to call a spade a spade.

This is just my opinion of course - but i have always been wary of "reviews" etc etc where the unproven manufacturer device in question is also a sponsor of the said website or magazine.

My attitude became more cynical towards reviews when i read an article called Display Myths Shattered a good while ago now. Some will of course say but that was written in 2010 - which it was - but if anything had changed greatly then it (would) have been updated since then - so presumably it hasn't needed to be basically.

It isn't written by a clown either - a guy called Dr Raymond Soneira who is the head of DisplayMate technologies with a list of experience and qualifications as long as an arm.

Some will know some of the things already written on there - some won't. But there are undeniably some very good and educational points written there along the way.

This isn't about any plasma manufacturer btw - just posting a link to it because it's educational for everyone at the end of the day.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/display_myths_shattered_how_monitor_hdtv_companies_cook_their_specs
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Even if the black levels of the Kuro surpass that of the ZT60, I cannot fathom the idea people would want to watch a 50" TV over a 65" TV, especially when pq between them are so close and subjective.

If I could go out and buy a 50" OLED today for $1,000 to replace my 65VT60, there is no way in heck I am going down to a 50" no matter how much better black levels or pq might be.
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post #3051 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 06:21 AM
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Perhaps

I have never seen the real world affect though of this color.

But like D-NICE said in the 2013 shootout, the absolute colour accuracy/tracking is still better on the KURO's. Panasonic very close - but if talking about charts etc Pioneer still ahead.

He mentioned Pioneer engineers simply got the math correct (or more correct than Panasonic engineers.

Presumably that is why the KURO'S didn't need as many bamboozling calibration controls. Because hey are inherently more accurate to begin with. I know the monitors had slightly more than the ELITE TV's but all are massively accurate.

Anyone who says skin tones on a Kuro aren't possible needs their head examined and/or calibration skills brushing up.

Stu
I disagree that color accuracy/tracking is better on the Kuro. It is actually a statistical dead heat.

Here are 2 reports showing the amazing color accuracy (and similarity) of both:
RMPioneer500mISFday.pdf 1320k .pdf file
CW65VT60Pro1day.pdf 1398k .pdf file

The Shootout results and comments keep coming up, but one has to keep in mind that those sets were new models at the time; calibrators, even the best, can benefit from more extensive hands on experimentation and exploratory time before the absolute best results can be obtained from a new model.

One thing I sometimes noticed on the Kuros was PWM noise, which manifested itself as graininess in colors. In that respect the Pannys are superior. So that, combined with the superb color accuracy and screen filters of the Pannys against the possible slight black advantage and arguably better ABL action of the Kuros... Comes down to a matter of what you value more.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CW65VT60Pro1day.pdf (1.37 MB, 31 views)
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post #3052 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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Perhaps

I have never seen the real world affect though of this color.

But like D-NICE said in the 2013 shootout, the absolute colour accuracy/tracking is still better on the KURO's. Panasonic very close - but if talking about charts etc Pioneer still ahead.

He mentioned Pioneer engineers simply got the math correct (or more correct than Panasonic engineers.

Presumably that is why the KURO'S didn't need as many bamboozling calibration controls. Because hey are inherently more accurate to begin with. I know the monitors had slightly more than the ELITE TV's but all are massively accurate.

Anyone who says skin tones on a Kuro aren't possible needs their head examined and/or calibration skills brushing up.

Stu
I disagree that color accuracy/tracking is better on the Kuro. It is actually a bit better on the ZT/VT60. I can show calibration reports to prove it. I'm talking about minute differences, though.

The Shootout results and comments keep coming up, but one has to keep in mind that those sets were new models at the time; calibrators, even the best, can benefit from more extensive hands on experimentation and exploratory time before the absolute best results can be obtained from a new model.

One thing I sometimes noticed on the Kuros was PWM noise, which manifested itself as graininess in colors. In that respect the Pannys are superior. So that, combined with the superb color accuracy and screen filters of the Pannys against the possible slight black advantage and arguably better ABL action of the Kuros... Comes down to a matter of what you value more.

I think the 500M is the cleanest plasma i have seen so far - perhaps except for a Panasonic pro pdp. Whites and black extremely clean on the 500M - not quite sure you could say that about the latest Panasonics im afraid which also shows more dithering.

PWM only visible on power save mode (2) on the 500M from a distance of about 2 feet. Standard mode it's a matter of inches in reality.

Plasmas though benefit more from clean power than say LCD technology.
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post #3053 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 06:44 AM
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Even if the black levels of the Kuro surpass that of the ZT60, I cannot fathom the idea people would want to watch a 50" TV over a 65" TV, especially when pq between them are so close and subjective.

Once you get below about 0.001 fL. with blacks, which the ZT/VT60 does, the deeper blacks provided by the KURO aren't overtly noticeable except in a dark viewing environment.
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post #3054 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 06:49 AM
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The PWM noise did seem to be more distracting on some Kuros than others. I did keep power save off unless the customer wanted it on for some reason.

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post #3055 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 07:00 AM
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Once you get below about 0.001 fL. with blacks, which the ZT/VT60 does, the deeper blacks provided by the KURO aren't overtly noticeable except in a dark viewing environment.
From what I've seen, ZT/VT60s don't measure below 0.001fL per a properly black calibrated Klein K-10 and CS-2000. More like 0.0011fL and higher. Display 's with black levels below 0.004fL and good AR filters do not have overly noticeable black levels except in a dark room environment and low APL scenes. Those two criteria will clearly show the benefits of blacker blacks though. 5 of the 6 Kuros I own are noticeably blacker than any and all VT/ZT60 I've calibrated iwhen dealing with APL scenes and dark room lighting since they all measure below 0.0003fL.


Having said all of that, does it really matter? Instead of the constant pissing/dick measuring matches that are so prominent on this forum, why not simply enjoy the display you own and stop worrying about what others have?
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Of course the only way to judge the noise of any panel due to driving variances is feed it clean power and reference quality digital blu-ray transfer with no grain imo.

There are nowadays some truly beautiful examples of these nowadays where nose has to be quite literally up at screen to see any noise if you can realistically even call it that
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post #3057 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 07:08 AM
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From what I've seen, ZT/VT60s don't measure below 0.001fL per a properly black calibrated Klein K-10 and CS-2000. More like 0.0011fL and higher. Any display with black levels below 0.004fL and good AR filter are not overly noticeable except in a dark room environment and low APL scenes. Those two criteria will clearly show the benefits of blacker blacks though. 5 of the 6 Kuros I own are noticeably blacker than any and all VT/ZT60 I've calibrated iwhen dealing with APL scenes and dark room lighting since they all measure below 0.0003fL.


Having said all of that, does it really matter? Instead of the constant pissing/dick measuring matches that are so prominent on this forum, why not simply enjoy the display you own and stop worrying about what others have?

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post #3058 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 07:09 AM
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Any display with black levels below 0.004fL and good AR filter are not overly noticeable except in a dark room environment and low APL scenes.

Well, I have not found that to be the case in my personal viewing experiences. Anything significantly above about 0.001 fL. leaves something fairly overtly noticeable to be desired except in a relatively bright viewing environment. Below about 0.001 fL, the 'returns' provided by deeper blacks start to diminish substantially. I would think below about 0.0001 fL., there would no longer be any perceivable advantage even in a pitch black viewing environment.
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post #3059 of 3156 Old 04-06-2014, 07:09 AM
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Having said all of that, does it really matter? Instead of the constant pissing/dick measuring matches that are so prominent on this forum, why not simply enjoy the display you own and stop worrying about what others have?

On this I most certainly agree.
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Has anyone used CalMAN to measure the gamut and see how the color saturations, lumanance and sweeps measure? I would love to see the output from that. Not just where the primaries lay on the gamut but how well it tracks across all saturation levels. At a minimum I would like to confirm that the primaries at their widest setting are greater than the Rec709 targets and that there is sufficient brightness in each of the primaries at these targets to provide the headroom for a fully accurate color calibration. Thanks.
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