F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 104 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:01 PM
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I heard if you watch a Kuro in a closet painted black, the black levels appear to be. 000000001 deeper. tongue.gif
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:01 PM
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I heard that astrophysicists have extrapolated that if you were inside a black hole at the very center of it--that if you had a Kuro there that everything besides the Kuro would be a lighter shade of black.

I believe that AVS many centuries from now will fund an expedition to see if this is really true.
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Old 04-09-2014, 06:54 AM
 
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I heard if an LCD passes through a black hole humans could see it from earth
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I heard that astrophysicists have extrapolated that if you were inside a black hole at the very center of it--that if you had a Kuro there that everything besides the Kuro would be a lighter shade of black.

I believe that AVS many centuries from now will fund an expedition to see if this is really true.

smile.gif
So would a kuro be the ultimate source of all black holes smile.gif
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Not taking any sides in the arguement but the because in your agreement is not sound. The percentage difference between .00001 and .0001 is huge but I would think the difference between these measurements would be difficult to discern.

Your argument is not sound because no one is talking about a .00001 measured display.

D-Nice just posted his Kuros which measure below 0.0003fL are notably darker than any Panasonics which measure at .0011 in a dark room. Others have noted the same.

These are notable differences because they are in fact larger percentage differences than some realize.

If they were very tiny differences, they would not be discernible.

Why doesn't that sound logical to you?

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Old 04-09-2014, 02:02 PM
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When you put it that way it does sound logical.

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Old 05-13-2014, 08:00 AM
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what real black level f8500 with the latest firmware? and perhaps in the last firmware is not corrected stability in black?

0.0017 level is made ​​with calibration?
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapp View Post

what real black level f8500 with the latest firmware? and perhaps in the last firmware is not corrected stability in black?

0.0017 level is made ​​with calibration?

Varied reports on the current black level but yes that is t the correct figure, the contrast ratios in the chart above are on/off contrast ratios not very meanigful and the VT/ZT can go much brighter than shown in the chart on the High Panel brightness setting. A calbration will certainly improve shadow detail but black level itself is set with a pluge pattern.

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Old 05-13-2014, 08:56 AM
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Panasonic VT60:
Motion resolution (max) 1200 Good
Motion resolution (dejudder off) 1200 Good

Samsung F8500:
Motion resolution (max) 700 Average
Motion resolution (dejudder off) 700 Average

here the error is not present?
source: Cnet.com
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:16 AM
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Sorry what error are you referring to ?

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Old 05-13-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Your argument is not sound because no one is talking about a .00001 measured display.

D-Nice just posted his Kuros which measure below 0.0003fL are notably darker than any Panasonics which measure at .0011 in a dark room. Others have noted the same.

These are notable differences because they are in fact larger percentage differences than some realize.

If they were very tiny differences, they would not be discernible.

Why doesn't that sound logical to you?

I can indeed confirm that the black level difference is hugely noticeable. Back in April D-Nice performed the black level adjustment on my non elite 5020FD and now it has deeper blacks than any untweaked KRP/101FD at .0004 FtL. Formerly it has been .0012 (a little high for a 9g Kuro but functionally the same as most, or the better half even, of VT/ZT60s) so it's technically a 3x decrease (or improvement).

Now does it look 3 times blacker to my untrained eyes? Maybe not, diminishing returns is a real thing. However, I'd never want to go back because the impact of low APL scenes is just so much greater on my 'new' Kuro than my old one, or any other tv I've seen in person for that matter.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Sorry what error are you referring to ?

resolution dynamics almost 2 times less, I understood correctly?
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:12 AM
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Yes if those figures are accurate, but that difference wouldn't be apparent except on a test pattern.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Yes if those figures are accurate, but that difference wouldn't be apparent except on a test pattern.
Thank you.
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Old 05-13-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sapp View Post

Thank you.

No problem, the F8500 is really the only top performer left in the plasma arena.

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Old 01-05-2015, 12:18 PM
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I know I'm resurrecting a dead horse here but I have been reading this thread because I currently have a 60ZT60 but had an offer on the table to sell it and I ordered the 60F8500. The deal to sell my ZT has fallen through so I'm deciding if I want to sell the F8500, return it or sell the ZT60.

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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by qwknuf6 

D-Nice and Jeff Meier (UMR) are not cult members and both are top touring calibrators , unrelated in any way , both rate all 9G Pionner Plasmas to have better PQ than the Panasonic ZT/VT , @ the last value electronics shootout the was another calibrator from tweak tv that stated the Pioneer was still the reference display.
Plus at the 2013 shootout didn't the crowd agree the 500M looked better? I remember hearing a comment after they did a demo with the 500M to the extent of "when is the next Kuro coming out".

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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
Even if the black levels of the Kuro surpass that of the ZT60, I cannot fathom the idea people would want to watch a 50" TV over a 65" TV, especially when pq between them are so close and subjective.

If I could go out and buy a 50" OLED today for $1,000 to replace my 65VT60, there is no way in heck I am going down to a 50" no matter how much better black levels or pq might be.
Agreed, when they first messed up my order of the 60F8500 BB offered to sell me the LG OLED at cost. I don't know if I could handle losing 5" and I don't really like the curved screen (and it was still more expensive). This is why the ZT has replaced my Kuro in the living room but I wouldn't settle for an LCD just because it was 75". Plus in my currently living room 60" (maybe 65") is the max I'll go.

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^Fantastic collection. Yea, that's another common contention I've seen concerning shadow detail, though someone (not me) will probably say your 500M needs a D-Nice tuneup (or that your ZT60 is using edge enhancement or the Darby is connected to the ZT60 giving it an unfair advantage).

Meh, all that hair-splitting aside, a 500M plus a ZT60 is the best way to ride out the apocalypse (with an LG OLED on the side).
I'm all set for the apocalypse minus the LG. Although I'm sure my 500M and ZT60 both could use a D-Nice tune up (or other respected calibrator). Though I'm hoping to get an i1D Pro 2 this spring and start doing calibration for myself. Not that I will be able to match what these other guys can do.

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Low end detail will appear to be more on the ZT due to a built in curve in its software (not to mention its edge dither drive scheme).. It is dynamic and adjusts on the fly. Attempting to do a BT.1886 gamma on these displays only exaggerates what the display's software is already doing. A properly setup ZT will show exactly the same shadow detail as any other display that does not have this type of dynamic software.... Including the 500M.
What is the proper setup of the ZT then? At this time I've purchased ControlCal and I'm using your settings through that. Seems like I could use some tweaking to improve the shadow detail.

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Old 01-05-2015, 12:26 PM
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You are not going to get a unanimous answer.

I owned both the ZT60 and the F8500...

Hands down, I find the F8500 to be the better display.

The brightness factor alone (with superb whites and deep blacks) is the reason to go for this display.

The 3D is sooooo much better because the ZT60 can't get bright enough to show it off.

Get the F8500 and eventually get it calibrated by Gregg Loewen. You won't believe how remarkable
it will look.

I marvel at my 64F8500 every single day. Best display purchase I ever made.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:33 PM
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I had no problem with the idea of switching from the ZT60 to the F8500 when I thought I had the ZT60 sold. I mean, I was going to end up with money left in my pocket. Now I'd have to actively try to sell a used ZT60 versus trying to sell the brand new in the box F8500. I postponed delivery of the Samsung until this Saturday to I could just cancel the order and be done with it. It's not like I don't enjoy the ZT60. I do however really like the F8500 as well. If they were both at blowout prices last January when I got the ZT60 there's a good chance I would have bought the F8500. Possibly the 64".

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Old 01-06-2015, 07:01 PM
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I found a store here in Canada that has both the ZT60 and the F8500. Unfortunately, they only have the 60" models and only the display model for the F8500. I can get the ZT60 for $3,000 or the display model F8500 for $1,700. Is the savings worth getting the display model F8500, or would it be safer to pay more and get the ZT60?
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:11 PM
 
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That entirely depends upon what you desire most in a picture. More film-like and better dark room performance or brighter and more punchy 3D performance. Of course you'd want to go over the F8500 with a fine tooth comb to ensure there are no defects since it's been used as a demo. Wouldn't hurt to check the number of hours either.
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:14 PM
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I prefer the VT and ZT over the F8500 and also would never buy a display model over 500 hours
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:34 PM
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Yeah, check the hours on the F8500. Someone here can post the remote code sequence. I forgot.

As much as I despise and would never buy a floor model, I think the F8500 is the better display.

Plus, you are paying about half the price.

Have you looked online to see if the F8500 is still available new?

Value Electronics, from what it looks like, has it in stock. I bought mine from them and they
are great to deal with. I would go to their website and contact them.
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
You are not going to get a unanimous answer.

I owned both the ZT60 and the F8500...

Hands down, I find the F8500 to be the better display.

The brightness factor alone (with superb whites and deep blacks) is the reason to go for this display.

The 3D is sooooo much better because the ZT60 can't get bright enough to show it off.

Get the F8500 and eventually get it calibrated by Gregg Loewen. You won't believe how remarkable
it will look.

I marvel at my 64F8500 every single day. Best display purchase I ever made.
Was the zt60 too dim even in the dark for you and did you get it calibrated before returning
it for the f8500? I was thinking about getting the f8500 too but, don't want to get stuck with
the buzz issue and an older build date.
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:01 AM
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Was the zt60 too dim even in the dark for you and did you get it calibrated before returning
it for the f8500? I was thinking about getting the f8500 too but, don't want to get stuck with
the buzz issue and an older build date.

I spoke to two calibrators, both who frequent this forum.

Both admitted to me that getting the ZT60 up to a desirable brightness level could be impossible.

I was told -- by both individuals in a phone call -- that they worked on many ZT60s and were rarely ever able to push the brightness level.

In fact, when I went to the Value Electronics store to look at both displays that were side-by-side, owner Robert Zohn tried pushing the brightness level on the ZT60 as high as it could go. Next to the F8500, it looked very dim.

I still purchased the ZT60 because people told me it was the better display. When I got it in my home theater -- a room with all windows blackened -- I found the brightness level to be undesirable. It could not even do 3D nearly as well as the LG 950 it replaced.

For the price you were looking to pay for the new ZT60, you may consider going with the 64" F8500. Those don't seem to have buzzing problems. Not sure how common the buzzing problems are in the 60" displays.

Just, personally, I think the F8500 is the better display because of its ability to bridge the gap between plasma and LCD. You get the great black levels of plasma but the brightness levels and crips whites that LCD boasts. No other plasma, that I am aware of, has been able to accomplish that.
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Old 01-07-2015, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
Yeah, check the hours on the F8500. Someone here can post the remote code sequence. I forgot.

As much as I despise and would never buy a floor model, I think the F8500 is the better display.

Plus, you are paying about half the price.

Have you looked online to see if the F8500 is still available new?

Value Electronics, from what it looks like, has it in stock. I bought mine from them and they
are great to deal with. I would go to their website and contact them.
Looks like the only F8500 VE has is the 51" and not quite as good a price as it was a month ago. Still a great display for the money if you can live with a 51".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
I spoke to two calibrators, both who frequent this forum.

Both admitted to me that getting the ZT60 up to a desirable brightness level could be impossible.

I was told -- by both individuals in a phone call -- that they worked on many ZT60s and were rarely ever able to push the brightness level.

In fact, when I went to the Value Electronics store to look at both displays that were side-by-side, owner Robert Zohn tried pushing the brightness level on the ZT60 as high as it could go. Next to the F8500, it looked very dim.

I still purchased the ZT60 because people told me it was the better display. When I got it in my home theater -- a room with all windows blackened -- I found the brightness level to be undesirable. It could not even do 3D nearly as well as the LG 950 it replaced.

For the price you were looking to pay for the new ZT60, you may consider going with the 64" F8500. Those don't seem to have buzzing problems. Not sure how common the buzzing problems are in the 60" displays.

Just, personally, I think the F8500 is the better display because of its ability to bridge the gap between plasma and LCD. You get the great black levels of plasma but the brightness levels and crips whites that LCD boasts. No other plasma, that I am aware of, has been able to accomplish that.
Although I wouldn't hesitate to get an F8500 I'm actually OK with how bright my ZT60 looks on most programming. I think this definitely comes down to personal preference. I didn't even mind the 3D brightness level but if I'm watching in 3D it's going to be almost completely dark in my living room (because I prefer it that way for any serious viewing). About the only time I feel the F8500 really beats it is in scenes with a lot of white. When I was trying to sell my ZT60 to a guy here in town, he came to view it twice and while we were watching some scenes from various movies I started to think "do I really want to sell this display" . That sale didn't go through so now I'm keeping it (and may end up keeping the F8500 that supposed to arrive Saturday as well).

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Old 01-07-2015, 08:32 AM
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Looks like the only F8500 VE has is the 51" and not quite as good a price as it was a month ago. Still a great display for the money if you can live with a 51".



Although I wouldn't hesitate to get an F8500 I'm actually OK with how bright my ZT60 looks on most programming. I think this definitely comes down to personal preference. I didn't even mind the 3D brightness level but if I'm watching in 3D it's going to be almost completely dark in my living room (because I prefer it that way for any serious viewing). About the only time I feel the F8500 really beats it is in scenes with a lot of white. When I was trying to sell my ZT60 to a guy here in town, he came to view it twice and while we were watching some scenes from various movies I started to think "do I really want to sell this display" . That sale didn't go through so now I'm keeping it (and may end up keeping the F8500 that supposed to arrive Saturday as well).
They really are both great sets, each has strengths and some minor weaknesses. The 8500 is definitely superior from an ABL standpoint which means more WTW headroom. Guess you will get to compare them side by side soon

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Old 01-07-2015, 09:35 AM
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They really are both great sets, each has strengths and some minor weaknesses. The 8500 is definitely superior from an ABL standpoint which means more WTW headroom. Guess you will get to compare them side by side soon
Yeah, I kind of wish I had pulled a 64" F8500 then I'd feel more of a reason to keep. "Hey I'm gaining 4!" Budget wise I should let it go. I've been trying to sell but no bites in my area. So now I'm torn between paying for a TV I really don't need or just cancelling and letting it sit at BB until someone discovers a diamond in the rough

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Old 01-07-2015, 09:43 AM
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That sale didn't go through so now I'm keeping it (and may end up keeping the F8500 that supposed to arrive Saturday as well).
Since you'll never be able to buy another good quality, large screen, PDP again; if you can afford to, this is the route I'd go.

BTW... I did... I have a 50PX50U, a PRO-150FD and a 64F8500. Each PDP renders a great picture and I enjoy watching them.

Sure... I'd like to own a UHD 77" OLED someday, but for $20(+)K it's going to be awhile before one adorns the wall of my living room.
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:56 AM
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Since you'll never be able to buy another good quality, large screen, PDP again; if you can afford to, this is the route I'd go.

BTW... I did... I have a 50PX50U, a PRO-150FD and a 64F8500. Each PDP renders a great picture and I enjoy watching them.

Sure... I'd like to own a UHD 77" OLED someday, but for $20(+)K it's going to be awhile before one adorns the wall of my living room.
Yeah, I'm trying to make the decision tomorrow as they will be calling me tomorrow night to schedule the 2 hour window on Saturday.

I remember when the first 42" plasma I saw was $10K.

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Old 01-07-2015, 11:24 AM
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I paid $5400 for the 2005 50" Panasonic, $7500 for the 2007 60" Pioneer and less than $2500 for the 2014 64" Samsung PDP.

So $5K is in my wheelhouse for a 77" UHD OLED.

Yes, I know I'm dreaming.
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