F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

The vt50's are equal to st60 black level. St60 black level is better than f8500. So that isn't really true. Though there are various mll measurements from the f8500 so I guess it depends on what measurement you look at.

The ST60 was a hair better than the VT50 at .0016 which is around where the F8500 has been (.0016 - .0017).

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post #362 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:05 PM
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I am not sure that I agree that the F8500 produces a good % of led brightness (but better than all other plasmas), but yes, your other pts are valid.

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post #363 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

I am not familiar with "dark optimizer" - does this have adverse effect on pq?

There seems to be mixed opinions on this. To my understanding, the upcoming firmware update should resolve the issue some were seeing. However, Kevin Miller didn't seem to find any issues with it to my understanding, but others like Jeff Meier preferred it off.

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post #364 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

There seems to be mixed opinions on this. To my understanding, the upcoming firmware update should resolve the issue some were seeing.

What issues (to lazy to browse 8500 thread). The measure without that setting on is pretty weak.

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post #365 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Those are generally the numbers I've seen in all the reviews I've read too. That's why I said the 8500 has the best MLLs prior to the 2013 Pannys.

But hell, these numbers are all so close and all so good, to me it's not ground-breaking either way. All of these still don't match the black levels I see on my Elite, so i'd take a hit in that area regardless of what I buy. When I saw the ZT60 at the show, my first thought when they showed full screen black was 'OK, nice, but still not as good as what I'm used to with the Elite'.

I think when you're under .002 it becomes damn tough to see differences unless maybe you get to around .0004 where I think the Elite is at?

David M. measured the UK VT65 at .000875 so if that holds true for the VT60, I would think the ZT60 would be a bit lower so both should be pretty close I would think, but we'll see.

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post #366 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

What issues (to lazy to browse 8500 thread). The measure without that setting on is pretty weak.

Some state it was causing floating blacks and issues with color not looking as natural.

My ST30 measures around .005 and it's not cutting it for me...

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post #367 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

What issues (to lazy to browse 8500 thread). The measure without that setting on is pretty weak.

I dont think anyone went into details except to say there were some issues when calibrating with it on, so they calibrated with it off an users could turn it on if they chose afterwords. It may have been due to the stability. According to the report from Robert however that the firware did fix the anomolies that were caused with it on, we wont really know howeer until it makes it out into the wild, OR we get a report from Kevin who was there when the new unreleased firmware was loaded....
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post #368 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:18 PM
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Kevin liked it on. In fact I can't recall seeing any owner leaving the Optimizer off, so I guess if there are any ill-effects for them, they're pretty minor. smile.gif

I've personally seen absolutely no issues with it on in all of the 8500s I've seen thus far.
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post #369 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I think when you're under .002 it becomes damn tough to see differences unless maybe you get to around .0004 where I think the Elite is at?

David M. measured the UK VT65 at .000875 so if that holds true for the VT60, I would think the ZT60 would be a bit lower so both should be pretty close I would think, but we'll see.

I wouldnt doubt that it hits that number, on a full black screen, but the "real" test I guess would be ANSI or the MLL test that is put up in the Calibration forum. We dont watch all black screens so the Full black MLL means little if it doesnt hold when content is on the screen (this goes for all companies).....
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post #370 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:22 PM
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Based on what I saw at the show, I'm not so sure the ZT60 will achieve the Kuro MLL either. To my eye there was no question the Kuro was just a bit darker but with the all too common red tinge.
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post #371 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I wouldnt doubt that it hits that number, on a full black screen, but the "real" test I guess would be ANSI or the MLL test that is put up in the Calibration forum. We dont watch all black screens so the Full black MLL means little if it doesnt hold when content is on the screen (this goes for all companies).....

Agreed.

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post #372 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Is that correct? I didn't realize that.

Not a lot to go on, but here are some measurements I've seen.

David Katzmaier, in cinema mode with low panel brightness:
55ST50: 61 fL window pattern, 14 fL full-field
55ST60: 56 fL window pattern, 13 fL full-field
50S60: 58 fL window pattern, 11 fL full-field

Chad B, in THX and custom modes with mid panel brightness:
50GT50: 33.3 fL ANSI, ~21 fL full-field
50ST60: 32.48 fL ANSI, 18.47 fL full-field

D-Nice, in custom mode with mid panel brightness:
ST60: 15.7 fL full-field
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post #373 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 08:39 PM
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Where about do you live up here?
winnipeg
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Originally Posted by Tim Akin View Post

Question here, which of the two (panny/sammy) has the better off angle viewing? This is a very important factor in my decision makin between these two tv's.
samsung has some limitations vertically, but neither one has any problem horizontally. imo the skewed view of the screen is a problem long long before the picture starts looking bad. i didn't think the samsung was going to be an issue, but if you are very close and have the tv a foot above or below eye level it will ruin the image. i had to sit down or stand at least 10-12ft back in order to view the tv in the store.
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Did anyone catch above, about how the zt would best or at least equal everything about the vt, except for sound? Surely I misunderstood something, unless the zt is so special it doesn't even come with speakers?
one of two ways to take it, either the speakers will be exactly the same, or if i'm not mistaken the VT has a larger bezel to house slightly more substantial speakers and perhaps the zt will have a thinner bezel? i just don't understand who spend 3k plus on a tv without some kind of audio system to go with it? i guess we're not quite there yet but soundbars are pretty easy to get, i wouldn't mind seeing speakerless displays for a few bux less, or a slimmer design.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Those are generally the numbers I've seen in all the reviews I've read too. That's why I said the 8500 has the best MLLs prior to the 2013 Pannys.

But hell, these numbers are all so close and all so good, to me it's not ground-breaking either way. All of these still don't match the black levels I see on my Elite, so i'd take a hit in that area regardless of what I buy. When I saw the ZT60 at the show, my first thought when they showed full screen black was 'OK, nice, but still not as good as what I'm used to with the Elite'.

something i've wondered, not being familiar with how the magic works, but why the heck can manufacturers not match what should be obsolete technology? you'd think at the very least matching 5yr old technology would be easy to copy. what has changed in the last 5yrs that stops panasonic from using the kuro technology (they own it now don't they?). i just find it bizarre to think a technology could get worse over time. so what's the hang up? cost? efficiency? some patents that weren't purchased?
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post #374 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 10:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think the reaction of some was due more to the many variables involved in two different people snapping a picture to post on the forum. There's no way that any conclusion could be drawn about resolution or anything else because of those variables. Most don't really care about how a display they're considering today compares to one that hasn't been produced in years. smile.gif
It showed both were capable of showing similar detail, in spite of all the remarks about the "extra" sharpness exhibited by the F8500 and the other insinuations about the dullness of plasma before the king (F8500) arrived.
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Based on what I saw at the show, I'm not so sure the ZT60 will achieve the Kuro MLL either. To my eye there was no question the Kuro was just a bit darker but with the all too common red tinge.
This makes David McKenzie's findings in relation to the VT60 all the more perplexing, though perhaps the ANSI checkerboard pattern (dipping only to 0.002 fL) is where the Panasonic's weakness in relation to the Kuro is manifesting. The shootout will resolve this and so much more.
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post #375 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

winnipeg
samsung has some limitations vertically, but neither one has any problem horizontally. imo the skewed view of the screen is a problem long long before the picture starts looking bad. i didn't think the samsung was going to be an issue, but if you are very close and have the tv a foot above or below eye level it will ruin the image. i had to sit down or stand at least 10-12ft back in order to view the tv in the store.
one of two ways to take it, either the speakers will be exactly the same, or if i'm not mistaken the VT has a larger bezel to house slightly more substantial speakers and perhaps the zt will have a thinner bezel? i just don't understand who spend 3k plus on a tv without some kind of audio system to go with it? i guess we're not quite there yet but soundbars are pretty easy to get, i wouldn't mind seeing speakerless displays for a few bux less, or a slimmer design.
something i've wondered, not being familiar with how the magic works, but why the heck can manufacturers not match what should be obsolete technology? you'd think at the very least matching 5yr old technology would be easy to copy. what has changed in the last 5yrs that stops panasonic from using the kuro technology (they own it now don't they?). i just find it bizarre to think a technology could get worse over time. so what's the hang up? cost? efficiency? some patents that weren't purchased?

I know. I'm equally as befuddled. THat's why I was hoping it had no speakers whatsoever, as I look down upon anyone who would even consider using integrated speakers, in any circumstance, for any reason. These people & their choices, they anger me.

mad.gif
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post #376 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The ST60 was a hair better than the VT50 at .0016 which is around where the F8500 has been (.0016 - .0017).

I was under the impression the f8500 mll increased more than the panasonics when not on black screens. Though I don't recall the measurements at the moment
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post #377 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

I know. I'm equally as befuddled. THat's why I was hoping it had no speakers whatsoever, as I look down upon anyone who would even consider using integrated speakers, in any circumstance, for any reason. These people & their choices, they anger me.

mad.gif

So I guess you're not a fan of the XBR 900A design, huh? tongue.gif
Me either.
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post #378 of 3105 Old 04-26-2013, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

I was under the impression the f8500 mll increased more than the panasonics when not on black screens. Though I don't recall the measurements at the moment

Kevin Miller:
60F8500: ANSI with Black Optimizer on: 24 fL / 0.003 fL (8,000:1)
64F8500: ANSI with Black Optimizer on: 34 fL / 0.004 fL (8,500:1)
64F8500: ANSI with Black Optimizer off: 34 fL / 0.005 fL (6,800:1)

Chad B:
64F8500: ANSI with Black Optimizer on: 34.95 fL / 0.0047 fL (7,436:1)
64F8500: ANSI with Black Optimizer off: 38.62 fL / 0.0064 fL (6,034:1)
50ST60: ANSI: 32.48 fL / 0.0029 fL (11,200:1)

It's interesting that Miller measured ANSI white so much lower on the 60" than the 64". I'm still dying to see measurements of the 51". The only one that I have seen with my own eyes is the 64" (which was impressive). But considering Samsung's plasma history, there is no way I'd buy a pricey 51F8500 without seeing some measurements on that first, regardless of how the 64" looks or measures.
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post #379 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

Not a lot to go on, but here are some measurements I've seen.

David Katzmaier, in cinema mode with low panel brightness:
55ST50: 61 fL window pattern, 14 fL full-field
55ST60: 56 fL window pattern, 13 fL full-field
50S60: 58 fL window pattern, 11 fL full-field

Chad B, in THX and custom modes with mid panel brightness:
50GT50: 33.3 fL ANSI, ~21 fL full-field
50ST60: 32.48 fL ANSI, 18.47 fL full-field

D-Nice, in custom mode with mid panel brightness:
ST60: 15.7 fL full-field

That's weird that the brightness would have actually dropped, but who knows? Maybe a tradeoff with some of the Panasonic models to eek out a bit more on the low end?

Hopefully the ZT doesn't make that sacrifice. Interestingly, at the Panasonic show, they didn't set up the demo to tout the brightness of the ZT despite the literature indicating they've improved brightness.

Hopefully the shootout will answer that question.
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post #380 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It showed both were capable of showing similar detail, in spite of all the remarks about the "extra" sharpness exhibited by the F8500 and the other insinuations about the dullness of plasma before the king (F8500) arrived.

I don't believe that 2 screenshots taken by two different posters, with two different cameras with different settings, lenses and qualities, can reveal anything at all about comparable resolution or apparent sharpness.

This has been discussed on AVS for as long as I've been on AVS. Posted pictures are fun, but any attempt to draw PQ conclusions from them is likely to be destined for failure.

But I can tell you having owned a Pro 151, the 8500's sharpness is greater IMO.
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post #381 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 06:24 AM
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[/B]
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Went to Best Buy (Magnolia) today and they had the 8500 and the VT60 side by side. Only thing in favor of the 8500 , IMHO, was the brightness and the whites. The VT60 wins hands down on everything else. I am very surprised with the comments in favor of the Sansung, perhaps because I saw both sets with out of the box settings. Honestly, I didn't like the Samsung very much , the reds were pinkish and the shadow detail was no contest against the Panny. I found the black level very similar, though.
Unless you watch TV on a bright room, I can't even see a reason to consider the 8500.
Magnolia guys confirmed the ZT for mid June.

My magnolia is saying they're getting the zt on may 12-13.
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post #382 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 06:25 AM
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Sorry
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post #383 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by whiznant View Post

[/B][quote name="slimoli" url="/t/1469541/f8500-or-zt60/30#

My magnolia is saying they're getting the zt on may 12-13.

That would be great. Just a couple of days after the shootout

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post #384 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 07:19 AM
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I saw the VT60 and the Samsung F8500 in the same room and watched them for quite a while. The Panasonic had somewhat blacker blacks, but other than that they were fairly even in everything else. They both had great color, contrast. I like the looks of the Samsung much better (I'm talking about the bezel and stand) so I would pick it over the Panasonic. I don't think you could go wrong with either one, IMHO.
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post #385 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 07:21 AM
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Sorry, I read this wrong and thought it was between the Panasonic VT60 or the Samsung F8500. I guess it's too early yet, not enough coffee. eek.gif
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post #386 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 07:41 AM
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I think Panasonic hit a homerun with their stand. it looks great, and to me Samsung fubared it up. it's just to wide, and limits your options. of course if you mount it on the wall like myself everything becomes null and void.

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post #387 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 07:47 AM
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That would be great. Just a couple of days after the shootout

Speakerphile is a MHT insider -- he says June. I believe him.
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post #388 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

As I recall, Robert, D-Nice and myself looked very closely at the Dark Knight and saw no issues with floating blacks, but yup, I'm blind, you got me. Kind of like me discovering the cyan error on the Elite when professional reviews mentioned nothing. And I was and am an owner of that display. You may think I'm not objective, you may think I'm blind to these issues, but you'd be very very wrong.

Man does this get tiring. rolleyes.gif

Having had the 64" f8500 in my home for ~25 days or so, I would say that unless you guys were viewing the tvs in a dark room environment, it would be hard to see the black fluctuations. They are subtle but annoying in a dark room. I know that I wasn't able to over look it once I knew it was there. I sent mine back to amazon and ordered another one through bb. Based on some other issues I had I'm hoping that I had a defective set. If the new one has the same issues ill wait for the zt, which I'm told my bb will have on may 12-13, and might swap if that sets picture is observably "better to my eyes".
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post #389 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Speakerphile is a MHT insider -- he says June. I believe him.

It depends on the Magnolia really, "regular" Magnolia is June, I believe the "stand alone" stores are May...
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post #390 of 3105 Old 04-27-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by whiznant View Post

Having had the 64" f8500 in my home for ~25 days or so, I would say that unless you guys were viewing the tvs in a dark room environment, it would be hard to see the black fluctuations. They are subtle but annoying in a dark room. I know that I wasn't able to over look it once I knew it was there. I sent mine back to amazon and ordered another one through bb. Based on some other issues I had I'm hoping that I had a defective set. If the new one has the same issues ill wait for the zt, which I'm told my bb will have on may 12-13, and might swap if that sets picture is observably "better to my eyes".

Id also wait to see if the firmware that is coming out fixes thsoe issues......The firmware is specifically for "pops" and fluctuations.....
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