F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Let me say this, I think the Dynamic mode (which most buyers won't use when purchasing this class of plasma) is better on the Panasonic than the Samsung. It's a bit more tame. Of course this is totally unadjusted, and out-of-the-box. But certainly the 8500 can look more LED'ish in that mode than the VT60. Perhaps not quite as bright as LED, but so obviously brighter than any plasma and with more pop than any plasma, I don't see why someone would pass on the 8500 if they're looking for the characteristics of plasma with the best pop by far of a plasma. I could see them passing on the VT60 if they're only after brightness, but not on the 8500 IMO. I for one would never have conducted any important A/Bs in torch modes. I just don't think it proves anything and simply shows which display looks better in their most horrific modes.
Not sure how you had these adjusted, but I do know the Westbury Magnolia had the poorest adjusted 8500 of any I've seen on Long Island. That's the truth. That was the only location where I saw the bad case of popping and I mentioned that weeks ago. It seemed to me that the Magnolia managers at most of the other Long Island locations were more concerned about getting at least some adjustments right than what I saw in Westbury. With that said, I saw little in the way of color saturation differences between the two when properly adjusted. I have zero concern about this since I've already seen a Kevin Miller calibrated 8500 next to a Kevin Miller calibrated VT50. They were virtually identical from a color standpoint and I seriously doubt there's any significant difference in this regard between a VT50 and a VT60. So if out-of-the-box Dynamic Torch mode is important to someone, that perhaps the VT60 does better there. For me, and I suspect most buyers, this is totally unimportant.
The only thing I'd agree with here is the shadow detail on the VT60 was better in the two uncalibrated sets and I've seen that at multiple locations. But saying the VT60 blacks were definitely blacker...well, I don't know what to say. For that to be true, there would have to be an absolutely huge difference in black levels for that to show up in the lighting of the Westbury store that I'm intimately familiar with. I saw no such difference in any Magnolia store. Not even close. We already know that there isn't much of a difference in measured black levels between these two sets (with the edge going to the VT60) and I'm talking about dark room viewing, not the ambient lighting of the Westbury Magnolia. So whatever you saw is the result of the modes you were viewing it in or misadjustment of the 8500. There simply is no big difference in black levels between these two. Again, I'd never do an A/B in Torch modes.
I too didn't notice any significant difference in reds. I did give a slight edge to the VT60 for just the slightest degree of a less orange red...but again, so slight that you'd need to carefully study the two. I frankly saw a bigger difference in reds between the demo at the Panasonic show between the Kuro and the ZT60. There I saw a fairly significant difference in reds with the ZT60 being the winner. I didn't notice any difference in blues or any other color for that matter between the VT60 & the 8500. I again refer to two professionally calibrated displays, the 8500 and the VT50. No difference and Kevin Miller said as much. I just think color is a non-issue when comparing these two great sets.
I never had any doubt from reading your posts. wink.gif For you the decision is the right one and I'm sure you'll be happy. The VT60, like the F8500, is a great display. My comparison were different and conducted in different modes. From my viewing I'm definitely leaning toward the 8500 because of what I perceived to be the better overall PQ, but I'm waiting for the ZT60 to see what it offers. I think the shootout will provide a more thorough evaluation of the ZT than I saw at the Panasonic show.

I also agree that any prospective purchaser should do an A/B if possible. But I would strongly suggest it never be done in Torch modes. Personally I would use the Movie mode of the Samsung and the THX mode for the VT60. If a prospective buyer is going to watch in Torch modes, I'd tell them to save their money and get a much cheaper display. wink.gif
Ken I think you completely missed my point. The two sets were NOT in torch mode. I thought I made that clear but I guess it wasn't as clear as I might have hoped. As to the rest of your feedback all I can say is that I reported as honestly and objectively as I could based on what I saw.

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post #452 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

VT60 Vs. F8500

First off I'd like to offer a huge shout-out to the fine guys over at the BB Magnolia next to Roosevelt Field on Long Island. They had these two sets side by side on stands making a direct A/B comparison possible. They were able to synch up The Avengers on DVD so that both sets were playing this with only a 1" -2" second difference between what the two sets were displaying. Actually, that 1" -2" second difference was quite helpful in allowing an assessment of what was playing on one before looking at the other.

First off, the F8500 had somewhat more pure whites than the VT60. That said, neither had anything like the eye searing whites and "pop" of the LED/LCD sets on the adjacent wall so if that is what you're after you're going to need to pass on both of these sets and opt, instead, for an LED/LCD. So the F8500 had more initial visual impact. My wife commented on this initially. After watching for a minute or two the strengths of the VT60 began to emerge. In fact, the longer you watched, the more apparent it was that the VT60 won convincingly in a number of categories. These included coror saturation and "depth" (hard to describe this but the closest I can come is that the VT had more of a 3D effect even while displaying 2D material). It also simply blew away the F8500 in resolution of detail in dark scenes. Skin tones where more accurate on the VT and blacks definitely appeared 'blacker.' Both sets were set off Vivid/Dynamic so the comparison could be as fair as possible. Needless to say, neither were professionally calibrated so we were looking at out-of-the-box settings. I was rather surprised to find that red resolution was about a draw with both sets doing a superb jod here. In view of the much ballyhooed new phosphor that Panny is using I had rather expected that this would be one area in which the VT would bury the F8500. This was not the case. Surprisingly it was in the blues that the VT excelled and completely dominated the F8500. Who whoudda figured?

Anyway, I'm happy to report that my seemingly endless obsession deciding between these two sets has now come to a close and I'm going with the VT. A couple of other factors entered into my ultimate decision. These were that I adore the stand that the VT uses and detest the overly wide stand of the F8500; the VT provides two remotes for their set -- one of which is the cute little touch pad thing, the other of which is a more traditional remote that will allow far easier access to the unit's many feature far more easily...the F8500 only offers the (admittedly very sleek and sexy) touch pad remote; the sound system of the VT is almost certain to beat the built-in speakers of the F8500...having owned the F8500 for about a week I can say that the built-in speakers of that unit were, at best, mediocre; finally I am a bit concerned over quality control issues with Samsung and I believe that over the long haul, the VT will prove to be more reliable -- I know that even the finest product can occassionally produce a lemon but I want to keep the odds on my side.

So if you are a casual shopper (thankfully, not many of us here fall into that category) be careful and spend some quality time with both sets before you decide which way to go. First impressions can be deceiving!

Thanks for your thoughts. I wish more best buys would set up to be able to do direct comparisons.

Question - any idea if "black optimizer" was turned on for the Sammy?

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post #453 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 04:51 PM
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Ken I think you completely missed my point. The two sets were NOT in torch mode. I thought I made that clear but I guess it wasn't as clear as I might have hoped. As to the rest of your feedback all I can say is that I reported as honestly and objectively as I could based on what I saw.

I thought you said both sets were in Vivid or Dynamic. Did I read that wrong? Sorry if I did. But I know you reported what you saw, I have no doubt about that. We agreed on some points and disagreed about others.

I think Ph8te and I had both sets dialed in pretty much the same and I think my observations were largely in agreement with his, possibly because of this. But hey, people can watch two displays and come up with entirely different observations, it's human nature.

Either way, you picked a great display and I'm sure you'll love it! Enjoy. smile.gif
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post #454 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Ken, why do you assume the TVs were in torch mode? Maybe i missed that in his post.

When he said 'both sets were set off Vivid/Dynamic', I assumed he meant that was the mode he used to adjust the set. IOW, his beginning point. Vivid is Panasonic's Torch mode and Dynamic is Sammy's Torch mode. So perhaps I read it wrong, but it made sense to me in the way he worded it.
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post #455 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

When he said 'both sets were set off Vivid/Dynamic', I assumed he meant that was the mode he used to adjust the set. IOW, his beginning point. Vivid is Panasonic's Torch mode and Dynamic is Sammy's Torch mode. So perhaps I read it wrong, but it made sense to me in the way he worded it.

Ah i didnt see that line... Confusion understood.

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post #456 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:07 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts. I wish more best buys would set up to be able to do direct comparisons.

Question - any idea if "black optimizer" was turned on for the Sammy?
Didn't notice that the black optimizer setting was. Sorry.

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post #457 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

When he said 'both sets were set off Vivid/Dynamic', I assumed he meant that was the mode he used to adjust the set. IOW, his beginning point. Vivid is Panasonic's Torch mode and Dynamic is Sammy's Torch mode. So perhaps I read it wrong, but it made sense to me in the way he worded it.
yeah, I probably could have worded that differently. I think I'll go and edit the original post. Thanks for pointing that out. smile.gif

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post #458 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:27 PM
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I finally got to see the vt60 next to the 8500 for my first time just an hour ago. It's the only time I've thought the 8500 looked washed out. The details were so much richer on the vt60 which is very different than what I expected. I thought I wasnt going to see any practical difference in PQ, but even at a quick glance it was obvious enough. For grins I decided to have my wife tell me which she thought made ironman look better and she chose the vt pretty fast. Pretty stark contrast to be sure smile.gif

Of course I look forward to real calibrators tuning the sets and measuring the numbers to get a good idea of these two good displays real potential; in store comparisons just aren't enough for me to make a real judgement unless I'm going to live with out of the box settings. Out of the box clearly vt60 for me, which ill use to project I'd say the same for zt60.
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post #459 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I finally got to see the vt60 next to the 8500 for my first time just an hour ago. It's the only time I've thought the 8500 looked washed out. The details were so much richer on the vt60 which is very different than what I expected. I thought I wasnt going to see any practical difference in PQ, but even at a quick glance it was obvious enough. For grins I decided to have my wife tell me which she thought made ironman look better and she chose the vt pretty fast. Pretty stark contrast to be sure smile.gif

Of course I look forward to real calibrators tuning the sets and measuring the numbers to get a good idea of these two good displays real potential; in store comparisons just aren't enough for me to make a real judgement unless I'm going to live with out of the box settings. Out of the box clearly vt60 for me, which ill use to project I'd say the same for zt60.

Did you check the settings on the TV or only what the store had them on? Ive seen stark contrast in how stores have them set up.......Ive seen the F8500 set on Dynamic and and VT60 set on Standard just "sitting" there......OOTB settings dont mean much unless we know what each were set to wink.gif

I was impressed by the VT60 once I was able to play with the settings however..
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post #460 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:46 PM
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I had my wife so didn't tinker. I just had the clerk reset the picture settings to default and compared the 2 movie and two torch modes ( torch was for curiousity). I of course don't care about out of the box so will wait on the real shootout.
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post #461 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 05:59 PM
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It seems strange that when most of the forum members put in settings they say the F8500 looks much better and sharper, but the one's who just go and look at it seem to say the VT60 looks better.

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post #462 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sn1ffb0 View Post

It seems strange that when most of the forum members put in settings they say the F8500 looks much better and sharper, but the one's who just go and look at it seem to say the VT60 looks better.

It all depends on the settings as with any set, I would never base anything on the "base" settings of the TVs. I had to increasee the contrast on the VT60 I saw in order for it to approach watchable in the room it was, otherwise it was just too dim.....

No matter what though the more people taht see it the better, everyone is going to see things differently and the more people that report back the more points someone can gauge off of.......
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post #463 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 06:19 PM
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To answer your question, even with bright content I can still see the letter box bars aren't quite black enough. I have .002 now which leads me to .003 not being adequate for me.

ok, thanks. I thought I was pretty picky about this, but I know my LCD is WAY brighter than that and the bars disappear as long as there's bright content on about 25% or more of the screen.

guess i'll keep my focus on detail in all dark scenes, as that still seems to be an area my eyes are picky

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post #464 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 06:23 PM
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I agree with this in large part. I just wanted to highlife that a lot of the nuances between sets didn't become apparent to me until I had them in my own living room for a good few weeks. Contrast ratios and black level numbers applied in retrospect confirmed my own enjoyment differences of the pictures whenever I bought TVs and especially warranty support and quality control. So now I try to extrapolate as best I can from those numbers and owner experiences with quality control before I move on a set, especially when dealing with flagship purchases and hairsplitting smile.gif Obviously you want to buy it once and never deal with exchanges, but that's not always possible.

I enjoy brightness In The store front but am still seeking to understand with my own eyes how I might include it in my at home enjoyment factor and possibly factor those numbers in going forward.

definitely agree. it's like checking out the fuel economy numbers for a car. way more convenient to compare those than to drive each one for 100miles and see for yourself smile.gif

I feel like every time I buy a new TV I learn about 4 new things to watch out for. so I appreciate reading the expert reviews and trust that as long as i'm aware of my tastes, I can trust their judgements

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post #465 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 06:24 PM
 
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The 'defect' that the Sharp Elite had could hardly be characterized as 'show stopping' any more than the very common 'reddish tinged blacks' on a Kuro. Additionally, Samsung this year is very obviously not the Samsung of last year or prior years, try as hard as you do to ignore it. wink.gif
Never claimed the Sharp had a showstopping defect, ffs. And it's too early to say what kind of longevity any 2013 panel will provide.
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It seems strange that when most of the forum members put in settings they say the F8500 looks much better and sharper, but the one's who just go and look at it seem to say the VT60 looks better.
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post #467 of 3105 Old 04-28-2013, 07:54 PM
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It seems strange that when most of the forum members put in settings they say the F8500 looks much better and sharper, but the one's who just go and look at it seem to say the VT60 looks better.

Please take my own eyeball experience with a grain of salt. I was in a magnolia center which is a dimmer environment than the rest of the store and stock settings are useless to an enthusiast.

I really wish I could see my vt50 alongside the vt60 and get that feeling that my vt50 was washed out, it would give me pleasure to improve the PQ in the areas I care about most and make me drool a bit more.
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post #468 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 12:03 AM
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post #469 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 03:30 AM
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It seems strange that when most of the forum members put in settings they say the F8500 looks much better and sharper, but the one's who just go and look at it seem to say the VT60 looks better.

Interesting isn't it? wink.gif

You simply can't get anything approaching an accurate assessment by just walking in and looking at what the store did. You're doing yourself a disservice.
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Very impressive review the NA version should follow suit smile.gif

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post #472 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 05:34 AM
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Delete
Click on test results tab.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

I'm a little disappointed in terms of brightness , seems F8500 to be less affected by ABL circuit , I'm not sure but i think peak brightness on a windowed pattern looks nearly identical on both panels but Panasonic ABL circuit limit white sooner than F8500.
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post #473 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 06:21 AM
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Delete
Click on test results tab.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

I'm a little disappointed in terms of brightness , seems F8500 to be less affected by ABL circuit , I'm not sure but i think peak brightness on a windowed pattern looks nearly identical on both panels but Panasonic ABL circuit limit white sooner than F8500.

It might come down to the power supply differences. I recall seeing the power consumption of the ZT60 or VT60 was quite a bit less than the 8500. That might be the result of a much beefier power supply in the 8500.

If true, it would explain the tendency of the 8500 for a much brighter picture and a less aggressive ABL.

Hopefully the shootout will shed some light on this.

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Click on test results tab.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-TX-P60ZT65B-P60ZT60-ZT65-60-Inch-3D-Plasma-Television_525/Test_Results.html

I'm a little disappointed in terms of brightness , seems F8500 to be less affected by ABL circuit , I'm not sure but i think peak brightness on a windowed pattern looks nearly identical on both panels but Panasonic ABL circuit limit white sooner than F8500.

This is why Im holding off judgement untill we get to the shootout which will likely be the 1st look the NA market has at this set. The ANSI\brightness comments gave me pause. While I am sure it means little to those who either calibrate to ~32ftL or have dedicated theater rooms, for those that have variable lighting conditions the brightness numbers seemed "off" to me. I am hoping further reviews and or the shootout shed light on this.....
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Can't believe they'd go skimpy on the PS with such a high-end panel, UNLESS that was their intention (a limited edition, batcave panel wink.gif).
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post #476 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 07:37 AM
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Can't believe they'd go skimpy on the PS with such a high-end panel, UNLESS that was their intention (a limited edition, batcave panel wink.gif).

I wouldnt either, but in order to get those deep blacks they may have had to "sacrifice" somewhere....From the report it would seem to be peak brightness....This means little however to those that were looking for a set in a controlled lighting\dediated theater room....Time will tell and hopefully we get some mroe information in the weeks to come as well as the Shootout....
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post #477 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 07:45 AM
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I wouldnt either, but in order to get those deep blacks they may have had to "sacrifice" somewhere....From the report it would seem to be peak brightness....This means little however to those that were looking for a set in a controlled lighting\dediated theater room....Time will tell and hopefully we get some mroe information in the weeks to come as well as the Shootout....

Why do people insist on comparing the EU to the NA panels? Read David's VT review and do some research and it will be clear that the EU version has to meet energy mandates that are much tougher than NA. This tells me that the power suppyy is probably different and and probably has some sort of programmed limitations in EU panels. I don't recall seeing any reviews of the EU Samsung, ph8te -- do you? A much fairer comparo.
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post #478 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 07:49 AM
 
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Good point on those energy mandates. We have them, too, though they're apparently less stringent (if you can suffer the indignity of not having an energy star logo on your shiny new panel smile.gif).
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post #479 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 08:07 AM
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I wouldnt either, but in order to get those deep blacks they may have had to "sacrifice" somewhere....From the report it would seem to be peak brightness....This means little however to those that were looking for a set in a controlled lighting\dediated theater room....Time will tell and hopefully we get some mroe information in the weeks to come as well as the Shootout....

Why do people insist on comparing the EU to the NA panels? Read David's VT review and do some research and it will be clear that the EU version has to meet energy mandates that are much tougher than NA. This tells me that the power suppyy is probably different and and probably has some sort of programmed limitations in EU panels. I don't recall seeing any reviews of the EU Samsung, ph8te -- do you? A much fairer comparo.

I believe the Panasonics are Energy Star rated and the 8500 is not. So I suspect that there will be a significant difference even in the US version.

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post #480 of 3105 Old 04-29-2013, 08:15 AM
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Why do people insist on comparing the EU to the NA panels? Read David's VT review and do some research and it will be clear that the EU version has to meet energy mandates that are much tougher than NA. This tells me that the power suppyy is probably different and and probably has some sort of programmed limitations in EU panels. I don't recall seeing any reviews of the EU Samsung, ph8te -- do you? A much fairer comparo.

Glas yes the same very site did a F8500 review, as have a few others.....I agree which is why I have been saying that this is an EU set and the numbers may be different for the NA version. While a good indicator of what will occur with the NA model, the difference could go either way. People get wrapped up though and miss this since they were "first" to get one out. Chad B should ahve a review of the NA VT60 sometime after Wed of this week which will give us a little insight into the differences if any there are in the NA\EU versions at least for the VT model. I think the ZT will have to wait for the shootout unless Panasonic sent something to CNET and they get the scoop here....In a few weeks we'll know becasue of the shootout however, so not too far away smile.gif
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Good point on those energy mandates. We have them, too, though they're apparently less stringent (if you can suffer the indignity of not having an energy star logo on your shiny new panel smile.gif).

Agreed.....
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