F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Highrises with floor to ceiling windows, blinds that dont block light well, or are not fit for custom blinds, the list goes on and on and on.........yes I am sure every wife or signifigant other wants thier living room bathed in darkness during the day, just so they can get a more "theater like" setting.......

I just dont get whats so hard trying to think outside of the whats good for me vs whats good for someone else....

Now cut that out! There's no room for logic around here! wink.gif
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post #62 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

TV's have enough brightness. You guys must live in a hut on the bahamas. The F8500 brightness shouldn't be a consideration. How bright do you guys need your displays? Buy an LCD then. If all else fales....buy shades or curtains.

The ZT60 will perform better than the samsung in areas that really matter. Watch. You'll see at the shoout.

Well there ya go! Someone please make a call to Samsung and tell them to halt production immediately. There is simply no need for a plasma that can perform better in bright conditions. Furthermore, as of today, no viewing will be allowed in conditions other than the bat cave. I'm sure in today's environment we can pass another law for that.

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post #63 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Went to Best Buy (Magnolia) today and they had the 8500 and the VT60 side by side. Only thing in favor of the 8500 , IMHO, was the brightness and the whites. The VT60 wins hands down on everything else. I am very surprised with the comments in favor of the Sansung, perhaps because I saw both sets with out of the box settings. Honestly, I didn't like the Samsung very much , the reds were pinkish and the shadow detail was no contest against the Panny. I found the black level very similar, though.
Unless you watch TV on a bright room, I can't even see a reason to consider the 8500.
Magnolia guys confirmed the ZT for mid June.

Lets put the color issue to rest. I've seen a calibrated VT50 sitting right next to a calibrated F8500. There is no difference in color reproduction. I saw it, Robert saw it and Kevin Miller saw it. So given the fact that the VT60's color is essentially the same as the VT50, we can eliminate color as a deciding point in favor of either display. They are virtually identical. Out of box color? Who cares?

In fact the only check I gave the VT60 over the F8500 was the slightly better shadow detail. Brightness was better, whites looked more life-like, sharpness was better, blacks looked similar and color was as I previously mentioned.

Two great displays with, IMO, the edge going to the F8500.
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post #64 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

I have no plans to purchase an 8500, but that is a ridiculous statement. The 8500 is much brighter and is much less affected by ABL than the VT60 or anything below it (I don't know about the ZT). That will be an asset to anyone who calibrates peak white higher than around 15 - 20 fL, which everyone does. In a completely dark room, I have my plasma calibrated to 36 fL with a 14% white window pattern. An ideal display would have the exact same 36 fL brightness with a completely white screen. But obviously, that is not the case with plasmas. I've seen recent plasmas measured as low as ~9 fL on a full white screen. My own plasma drops to 17 fL. Chad B measured a PN-64F8500 at 23.4 fL -- still far from ideal, but significantly better than the average plasma. Anyone who views an 8500 next to a VT60 in a Magnolia room can plainly see that the 8500 is far less affected by ABL than the VT60 is. To suggest that ABL and brightness are not issues with plasma displays in dark rooms, or anywhere outside of a hut in the Bahamas, is just ridiculous and untrue. The brightness is a major selling point for the 8500, in any environment. And I'm rather confident that the 8500's brightness will be appreciated at the shootout. It was clearly appreciated by Chad B when he stated in his review, "The F8500 will maintain brightness better when showing a bright [hockey] rink than any other plasma I know of... Majestic, with bright scenes oodling pop and excitement like I've never seen on a large plasma... Compared to the VT50... the F8500 is punchier in bright scenes."

I'm probably going to opt for the excellent and much cheaper ST60, but I wish that all plasmas were as bright as the 8500.

Very well said and well worth repeating. I've said this before to those that think the extra brightness of the F8500 is only useful in bright rooms. Simply untrue. It's useful, as you say, in any lighting environment.

But many just don't get it.
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post #65 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Lets put the color issue to rest. I've seen a calibrated VT50 sitting right next to a calibrated F8500. There is no difference in color reproduction. I saw it, Robert saw it and Kevin Miller saw it. So given the fact that the VT60's color is essentially the same as the VT50, we can eliminate color as a deciding point in favor of either display. They are virtually identical. Out of box color? Who cares?

In fact the only check I gave the VT60 over the F8500 was the slightly better shadow detail. Brightness was better, whites looked more life-like, sharpness was better, blacks looked similar and color was as I previously mentioned.

Two great displays with, IMO, the edge going to the F8500.

Concerning the difference in shadow detail, how much of a difference is there? Is there a way to quantify this in terms of real world PQ, like maybe X scene will look better in Y movie? Or is it too subtle to notice unless the two sets are side by side? I'm also wondering if calibration might bring the shadow detail performance closer together. Thanks!
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post #66 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 06:00 AM
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I thought the debate was F8500 vs ZT60......why not wait until that information is available.

I also saw two F8500's a 60" and the 64" next to the VT60. I prefered the 60"F8500 and the salesman too. I don't count that as any type of evaluation though. The 60" was cleaner , sharper and more life like. The salesman owns the VT60 and is waiting to replace it with the ZT60 so he had no skin in the game. F8500 was pretty impressive. None were calibrated which makes the debate flawed.

One thing missing from these debates is customer service imho that part is huge , if the two sets are close.

I've always thought Panasonic was fair to me even fixed my bluray player out of warranty for free. Samsung no idea .....
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post #67 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kaosv1 View Post

I thought the debate was F8500 vs ZT60......why not wait until that information is available.

I also saw two F8500's a 60" and the 64" next to the VT60. I prefered the 60"F8500 and the salesman too. I don't count that as any type of evaluation though. The 60" was cleaner , sharper and more life like. The salesman owns the VT60 and is waiting to replace it with the ZT60 so he had no skin in the game. F8500 was pretty impressive. None were calibrated which makes the debate flawed.

One thing missing from these debates is customer service imho that part is huge , if the two sets are close.

I've always thought Panasonic was fair to me even fixed my bluray player out of warranty for free. Samsung no idea .....

I think people are hoping that they dont have to deal with customer service so that is something low on the list wink.gif both have had excellent reports as well as horror stories for custoerm service, so IMO its a wash........As far as waiting I agree, but peopel love to specualte and assume biggrin.gif just a nature of the forums, as people start trying to align themselves with the supposed "king" of the year.
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post #68 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 08:29 AM
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That all depend on you and the way you watch a TV. If you are watching TV all the time in a cave then go for a ZT. However, if you watch the TV in normal lighting conditions as well as dark room (Like most people) then go for F8500.

Don't forget that you are paying a huge sum for both and you consider this too:

With ZT: you will probably have reference levels while watching in a cave. However if you ever decide to watch the TV in the day light or a bright room then all you will have is a dim and dull panel. I know ZT is not out yet but that is true for almost all Plasma TVs (Except F8500) and specially Panasonic TVs. They are ALWAYS dim and dull at shops, at least to me.

With F8500: You might not get reference levels but you will get excellent watching experience without taking in account the lighting condition of the room, be it bright or dim. Day or night.

For me F8500 will be worth the value. I ain't buying a TV to change the way I watch it, but the TV has to adopt to how I want to watch it biggrin.gif
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post #69 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The excitement over the F8500 centers around the ability for the display to achieve superb PQ in both bright and bat cave environments. Let's face it, the VT50 was raved about for its black levels and the F8500 beats that.

Bat cave viewing- check

But the F8500 can also provide a great picture during the day where brightness can't be as easily controlled. The picture can have a pop under these conditions that no other plasma can attain.

Bright room viewing- check. smile.gif
Not convinced, at least not in the former case.
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post #70 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

With ZT: you will probably have reference levels while watching in a cave. However if you ever decide to watch the TV in the day light or a bright room then all you will have is a dim and dull panel. I know ZT is not out yet but that is true for almost all Plasma TVs (Except F8500) and specially Panasonic TVs. They are ALWAYS dim and dull at shops, at least to me.

The Vt is far from dim and dull so I doubt the ZT will be Dim and dull
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post #71 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Not convinced, at least not in the former case.

Vinnie if he was comparing the Kuro, I would say you have something wink.gif this was a VT50 to F8500 comparo though........
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post #72 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 09:01 AM
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Shouldn't a "reference" panel be used to achieve remarkable fidelity to the source? This brightness fixation is over the top. I sure hope we aren't asking when there will ever be a ZT60 killer 3 years from now. That's what will happen if the tail wags the dog.

But the question is, have plasmas been showing real white according to the actual source? Some would say no because of ABL, but the F8500 is getting much closer to the source in that regard with its brighter whites regardless of fl.

I've actually witnessed this on my brothers Samsung F5300 compared to my Panasonic ST30. Even with similar light output in a darker room, the whites on the Samsung just come through better and noticeably more pleasing. Grant you, these are different displays than what is being discussed, but the general behavior from both manufacturers is no different with this year's higher end plasmas. The ZT still remains to be seen, but I expect it to be extremely similar to the VT60 except very slightly better MLL.

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post #73 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 09:10 AM
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That is one of the universal mysteries -- have I ever seen white as it is intended on my plasmas since that is all I've owned since the CRT days. The next question is -- what is displayed more -- black or white? smile.gif
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post #74 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 09:21 AM
 
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^You're computing on LCD, aren't you? I don't think you've missed much due to a perceived lack of whites (this coming from a former LCD TV owner)...
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post #75 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 09:23 AM
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Hopefully the Shootout will run tests to show "white" differences.
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post #76 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kaosv1 View Post

I prefered the 60"F8500 and the salesman too.

Did you get the salesman's phone number? wink.gif

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post #77 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 10:21 AM
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Sammy boys Fest vs Panny boys Army Part II smile.gif
if you like the F8500 buy one, but not, you wait for ZT60...but if it doesn't have LCD/LED Brightness like you want....buy a F8500. And if you want a "batcave" KURO Black Level buy a ZT60.
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post #78 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 10:39 AM
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Just like the Kuro, i'm sure you don't need to be in a "batcave" to enjoy the ZT60. I really hate that term. I watch my Kuro in the dark and during the day. But i don't have the sun BLASTING inside my room and no one should. An extremely bright environment is not an ideal way to watch TV. Plasma or LCD.

Seeing how the ZT60 is going to be brighter and handle daytime reflections better than my Kuro, the samsungs touted extra brightness is useless. The ZT60, if i was to ever get it in the future, should serve everything i need. I'm one that believes too much brightness is bad as it makes the picture look artificial.
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post #79 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 10:56 AM
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I'm totally agree with you saprano but i read all the thread and resume in this: Sammy lovers/Panny Haters or viceversa.
Some people thinks that ZT60 it's no bright enough for their enviroment and some other people thinks that black level on F8500 it's good but it's no good enough or on par with a Kuro. (I'm in the second group and i take EU Reviews to think that).

PS: One group can't change other group minds.
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post #80 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 10:57 AM
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It's a little premature to declare the F8500 the TV to buy in a bright enviornment, until more direct comparisons are done by reviewers in real-world enviornments using calibrated sets (CNET reviews and flat-panel shootout should offer some good results). Also, keep in mind last year's Panny 3rd tier model (ST50) was generally viewed as superior in such enviornments to Samsung's flagship (E8000). For those touting the Panasonics as "dull" or "dimly-lit", you should probably go do more research.

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post #81 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Just like the Kuro, i'm sure you don't need to be in a "batcave" to enjoy the ZT60. I really hate that term. I watch my Kuro in the dark and during the day. But i don't have the sun BLASTING inside my room and no one should. An extremely bright environment is not an ideal way to watch TV. Plasma or LCD.

Seeing how the ZT60 is going to be brighter and handle daytime reflections better than my Kuro, the samsungs touted extra brightness is useless. The ZT60, if i was to ever get it in the future, should serve everything i need. I'm one that believes too much brightness is bad as it makes the picture look artificial.

I would agree with that statement, the ZT will most likely be brighter and handle reflections better, until it comes out though we are only making assumptions....

As far as being far from ideal to watch TV I would agree, not everyone has a choice however. To say the brightness is useless thats a personal opinion specific to your situation....

I ahve no doubt that the ZT will be an excellent set, as the ST and VT have shown to be so far. This year however we look to ahve a numebr of excellent sets that will fit everyones needs. Its not us vs them (sammy vs panny). hopefully we can get beyond that mentality one day, since if your happy with the TV you bought thats the only thing that matters regardles of the numbers or what people say on the internet....
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post #82 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 11:05 AM
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I am watching Criminal Minds on my VT50 right now, in the day, in a light environment and it looks just fine and certainly better then the DLP I had. I visited a BB yesterday and they had a VT60 on the open floor, not a controlled light environment and it looked spectacular. They also had a wall mounted F8500 also in an open area. It was brighter as it should be in Dynamic mode. Two days ago I was in a different BB and they had a VT60, a 60 and 64 inch F8500 in a row.All were stand mounted and basically the same height. The VT was set for THX Day, one F85 was set for Standard the other was in Movie. There was very little difference in brightness. One of the FBs was a bit brighter then the other. Just my observations.

As far as aesthetics, the VT60 wins hands down. That FB stand is ugly. What was Samsung thinking? They (BB) had a wedge under one of the sets to keep it from wobbling.

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post #83 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 11:24 AM
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As far as aesthetics, the VT60 wins hands down. That FB stand is ugly. What was Samsung thinking? They (BB) had a wedge under one of the sets to keep it from wobbling.

I agree that stand is herroundous, at least that problem can easily be fixed by wall mounting it.

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post #84 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 11:27 AM
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Wall mounting is tough for a lot of people; for me it means the display would be several more feet back which is unacceptable. However, I can live with the F8500 stand although no question the VT60 stand looks much better.

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post #85 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 11:44 AM
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I have had the pleasure of seeing the F8500 in my living room. It is hands down the best TV I have ever seen. The deep blacks, wonderful saturated colors, LED like brightness, and details brought out in blurays due to the clarity of the panel is very impressive. Cons - panel buzz, which seemed to almost go away by the time the F8500 left my house, filter which blacks out the screen when looking at the panel from above or below when very close to the TV (0.5 to 1 meter way), and the mediocre built in speakers (C grade). Others are raving about the VT60 and the ZT60, so I have not made a purchase decision yet. Waiting to see the VT and ZT60 in person. $2999 seems to be the best price on the F8500 from a legit dealer. The VT60 is the same price, but I have not found a brick and mortar place that carries one so I don't know the street price. The ZT60 is likely to command its $3500 asking price. Which one is best? That depends on what your eyes tell you. In a couple of months, Best Buy/Magnolia is likely to have all three to compare. I believe in putting eyeballs to the screen instead of buying based on an internet review of peoples' opinions in a forum. If the VT and ZT don't live up to the hype, I am buying the F8500.

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post #86 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:06 PM
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^by saying the best TV you've ever seen has LED brightness, then even just mentioning that filter/viewing angle issue, you have simultaneously angered both internet armies with a single post.

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post #87 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

It's a little premature to declare the F8500 the TV to buy in a bright enviornment, until more direct comparisons are done by reviewers in real-world enviornments using calibrated sets (CNET reviews and flat-panel shootout should offer some good results). Also, keep in mind last year's Panny 3rd tier model (ST50) was generally viewed as superior in such enviornments to Samsung's flagship (E8000). For those touting the Panasonics as "dull" or "dimly-lit", you should probably go do more research.

I don't think people should depend solely on reviews (specially CNET reviews) and ignore their own eyes. I feel you should just buy what your eyes feel more comfortable with. I have seen these Panasonic TVs of 2012 and CNET has been praises for them yet they looked so dim and dull that I was thinking the reviews were either fake or just were judging the TVs by only one factor i.e. black levels and disregarding all the other aspects of PQ be it clearness, brightness and sharpness. Also CNET reviews never mention about the IR problems that were affecting the 2012 Panasonic TVs! Why? All their cons for Panny TVs are generic cons of Plasma like consuming more energy etc.. People know that, they want to know the real problems. If these reviews are not just advertisements then they should mention what people need to know.

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post #88 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:20 PM
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I don't think people should depend solely on reviews (specially CNET reviews) and ignore their own eyes. I feel you should just buy what your eyes feel more comfortable with. I have seen these Panasonic TVs of 2012 and CNET has been praises for them yet they looked so dim and dull that I was thinking the reviews were either fake or just were judging the TVs by only one factor i.e. black levels and disregarding all the other aspects of PQ be it clearness, brightness and sharpness. Also CNET reviews never mention about the IR problems that were affecting the 2012 Panasonic TVs! Why? All their cons for Panny TVs are generic cons of Plasma like consuming more energy etc.. People know that, they want to know the real problems. If these reviews are not just advertisements then they should mention what people need to know.

Interesting theory, Panasonic reviews fake, Samsung review legit hmmmm ....
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post #89 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Interesting theory, Panasonic reviews fake, Samsung review legit hmmmm ....

Did I say that? not a fan of either, I will be a fan of the TV that suits my needs.
All I say is don't depend on reviews solely be it for Panasonic or Samsung. Unless you trust others more than you trust your eyes smile.gif

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post #90 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

I don't think people should depend solely on reviews (specially CNET reviews) and ignore their own eyes. I feel you should just buy what your eyes feel more comfortable with. I have seen these Panasonic TVs of 2012 and CNET has been praises for them yet they looked so dim and dull that I was thinking the reviews were either fake or just were judging the TVs by only one factor i.e. black levels and disregarding all the other aspects of PQ be it clearness, brightness and sharpness. Also CNET reviews never mention about the IR problems that were affecting the 2012 Panasonic TVs! Why? All their cons for Panny TVs are generic cons of Plasma like consuming more energy etc.. People know that, they want to know the real problems. If these reviews are not just advertisements then they should mention what people need to know.
Your theory might hold some weight if the 2012 shootout (multiple parties, lots of payoffs involved) didn't find the Panasonic also with the best all-around PQ.

Additionally, David Katzmaier, Cnet reviewer, calibrator, and videophile enthusiast, has a pretty reliable track record.
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