F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BizMarkie View Post

I need some opinions on these two brands .. Should I buy f8500 now or wait and see ? I went to check F8500...the best tv so far for this year..killing VT50 ...but I dont know about ZT60 ....You guys have any more info please let me know. Thanks

No offense. But anyone who says that the F8500 is "killing" the VT, has not seen a properly set up VT. Is it better? Probably, it goes deep and is brighter. But "killing". I don't think so. I'll temper this by saying that I haven't seen a calibrated F8500 yet.
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post #902 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

LIght output is pretty easy to maximize without a pro cal actually, really just a matter of adjusting contrast and panel brightness, of course that can have some negative effects on other picture parameters

Thats true it will have a negative effect because that TV is not meant to be bright in the first place.
It is harder to adjust the TV to your liking. Instead you have to adjust yourself and your surroundings to make this TV likable smile.gif
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post #903 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Thats true it will have a negative effect because that TV is not meant to be bright in the first place.
It is harder to adjust the TV to your liking. Instead you have to adjust yourself and your surroundings to make this TV likable smile.gif
I ain't letting a TV control me biggrin.gif

Point taken "SG" biggrin.gif
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post #904 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

No offense. But anyone who says that the F8500 is "killing" the VT, has not seen a properly set up VT. Is it better? Probably, it goes deep and is brighter. But "killing". I don't think so. I'll temper this by saying that I haven't seen a calibrated F8500 yet.
.

I don't think using the killing word is appropriate. There is no TV complete. No matter what. You will probably find something better in VT than in F8500 and vice versa

However VT is a fully plasma TV while I would rather call the F8500 a "Plasled" as it seems like a hybrid between a plasma and LED.

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post #905 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:55 AM
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Point taken "SG" biggrin.gif

Good "PG" biggrin.gif

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post #906 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

No offense. But anyone who says that the F8500 is "killing" the VT, has not seen a properly set up VT. Is it better? Probably, it goes deep and is brighter. But "killing". I don't think so. I'll temper this by saying that I haven't seen a calibrated F8500 yet.
.

That is true, but we all have our opinions when it comes to TVs performance wink.gif in his opinion the F8500 was killing the VT50 nothing wrong with that......BTW this is all a moot point he got a F8500 and is now waiting to see how the ZT60 is...
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post #907 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:26 AM
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Then why holding off?

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post #908 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

LIght output is pretty easy to maximize without a pro cal actually, really just a matter of adjusting contrast and panel brightness, of course that can have some negative effects on other picture parameters

Thats true it will have a negative effect because that TV is not meant to be bright in the first place.
It is harder to adjust the TV to your liking. Instead you have to adjust yourself and your surroundings to make this TV likable smile.gif
I ain't letting a TV control me biggrin.gif

Interesting way to look at it Hali. I guess I've felt the same way without thinking of it in those terms. I can watch a superb picture in any kind of light...well maybe not outdoors. With some other displays I have to fit the environment to the display.
I do think the VT60 is OK in normal room lighting, but with the brightness and glare rejection of the 8500, just not as good.

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Some seem to be ignoring anti-reflective benefits of the ZT60, which should help it immensely in brighter environments. From HDTVtest's review, where they go out of their way to comment on anti-reflective performance (I didn't see much in the way of discussion about this aspect in their F8500 review):
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We don’t have a scientific way of assessing the quality of the antireflective screen coatings yet, but subjectively assessed, daytime performance is also in the highest category of performance that we’ve ever seen from a plasma display panel (PDP). Panasonic promotes the TXP60ZT65B as having a new filter called “Ultimate Black”, and it does appear that in daylight environments, there is an improvement over the (already outstanding) VT65 series. In any case, the performance is wonderful: daytime blacks on the ZT65 are like looking at glossy black velvet.

What we can do though, is provide a scientific comparison of the Panasonic ZT65′s “Ultimate Black” filter’s bright-room black level performance versus the “Infinite Black Pro” filter on the TX-P50ST50 we have here. In fact, we measured the latent light present in both televisions with the room lighting on with both panels turned off (both naturally beside each other), to measure only the performance of the filters. In both cases, we held the Klein K-10 colorimeter roughly half a metre from the screen surface. In this test, the ZT’s filter kept blacks as viewed in a bright room at just 0.05 cd/m2, whereas the ST50 – which manages an extremely deep 0.009 cd/m2 in a dark room – lit up to 0.35 cd/m2 in the presence of light. The bottom line is that the TX-P60ZT65B’s contrast performance is utterly spectacular, regardless of the viewing conditions. Would we recommend one for use in a very, very, very bright room? Not really, but that’s largely because a display of this quality would be put to waste in these conditions anyway. If you do decide to put a 60ZT65 in these conditions, it’ll give you a better image than many competitors.
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post #910 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

No offense. But anyone who says that the F8500 is "killing" the VT, has not seen a properly set up VT. Is it better? Probably, it goes deep and is brighter. But "killing". I don't think so. I'll temper this by saying that I haven't seen a calibrated F8500 yet.
.

one would think that at this level 'calibrated' sets would be nearly identical. i me, if they can both go brighter than needed, have 'perfect' color, good greyscale, etc. seems the only differences would be very small.

now viewing both of them in the store with default settings, yeah, there's a pretty big difference between them. but at home, calibrated to 'reference' standards, i don't think you could go wrong with either.

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post #911 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Some seem to be ignoring anti-reflective benefits of the ZT60, which should help it immensely in brighter environments. From HDTVtest's review, where they go out of their way to comment on anti-reflective performance (I didn't see much in the way of discussion about this aspect in their F8500 review):

I dont think anyone is ignoring it, but antireflective is only part of the "bright room" performance.....Since the quote you took is from a UK set Ill say its probably better to hold off judgement until the NA sets get tested and reviewd (only a few days away)....The antireflective should help a great deal for those who are seeing reflections in the VT\ST that are bothering some people as long as all other aspects of the sets outside of the reflections make the sets worth keeping to that individual.....

Hopefully the Shootout will anwser some of the questions that have come up in the forum...
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post #912 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:13 AM
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Full lumiére the F8500 is a mirror, anti-glare FITRE is not effective ...




rolleyes.gif

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post #913 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

For those looking for a better depiction of bright scenes as the result of a less aggressive ABL, better sharpness, better dynamic range, black levels that would have been considered 'best in class' in 2012 and better reflection control, it's not hard at all to see why someone would spend the same money or more on the 8500. :-)

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LOL. The 60" ST60 is $1,500 and is the closest competition for the F8500 in performance. For those who want a "closest to reference" experience then only the VT60 and ZT60 have appeal. Look, if the showdown proves otherwise, then we can all celebrate. Until then, the VT60 is the 2nd best on the market today and costs a good bit less than the F8500. Had Sammy priced the F8500 with the VT60 or less then it would be a no-brainer for some to choose the F8500. As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.

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post #914 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Urga View Post

Full lumiére the F8500 is a mirror, anti-glare FITRE is not effective ...


rolleyes.gif

Funny how you forgot to post pictures of the ST/VT/ZT in the same conditions rolleyes.gif

Also funny how almsot every review disagrees with you about the anti-glare filter not being effective.....Let me go just search for things wrong with the KURO and Panasonics without putting any substance behind it, becasue that always leads to something good......
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post #915 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:24 AM
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LOL. The 60" ST60 is $1,500 and is the closest competition for the F8500 in performance. For those who want a "closest to reference" experience then only the VT60 and ZT60 have appeal. Look, if the showdown proves otherwise, then we can all celebrate. Until then, the VT60 is the 2nd best on the market today and costs a good bit less than the F8500. Had Sammy priced the F8500 with the VT60 or less then it would be a no-brainer for some to choose the F8500. As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.

Lot of assumptions and opinions there. I will give you mine...if the VT60 is slightly better calibrated than the F8500 how long will it stay that way given what some have reported such as D-Nice and Chad. I am not going to pay extra money for more frequent calibration tune ups because of its quirky behavior which I doubt Panasonic will address given they are heavily bleeding financially and pulled R&D for plasma. They never even fixed it when they had more money for the VT30. In addition, they lied about the rising blacks being fixed in 2011. Is this issue truly fixed? It sounds as if the 2013s quickly behavior is very similar to the 2011s...does that mean the VT60 MLL will double like the VT30 by the 2500 hour mark as D-Nice reported? I don't know, but I am not sure I want to take the chance. Gives me a concern. I know most people could not care less, but I do care about this.

By the way, street prices are fairly close to each other regarding the F8500 and VT60 as I have been scoping both out as of late.

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post #916 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:27 AM
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VT60eview

^Where is the F8500 headline confirming that it beats the Kuro?

"But in a dim to dark room, the kind in which you'll want to watch any good TV to best appreciate its picture quality, the VT60 wins"

Mind you, the F8500 is not priced appreciably less than the VT60. If it were, then we could talk....

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post #917 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

LOL. The 60" ST60 is $1,500 and is the closest competition for the F8500 in performance. For those who want a "closest to reference" experience then only the VT60 and ZT60 have appeal. Look, if the showdown proves otherwise, then we can all celebrate. Until then, the VT60 is the 2nd best on the market today and costs a good bit less than the F8500. Had Sammy priced the F8500 with the VT60 or less then it would be a no-brainer for some to choose the F8500. As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.

Wait what? how is the VT60 a "good bit less" than the F8500?
Ill sue Best Buy since it is a major retailer and dont heavily discount prices:
64" F8500 $3499
65: VT60:$3599

I forget that unless you think Panasonic is the best you are "anti-panny (pro-pioneer\samsung)" how does that work out again????
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post #918 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

LOL. The 60" ST60 is $1,500 and is the closest competition for the F8500 in performance. For those who want a "closest to reference" experience then only the VT60 and ZT60 have appeal. Look, if the showdown proves otherwise, then we can all celebrate. Until then, the VT60 is the 2nd best on the market today and costs a good bit less than the F8500. Had Sammy priced the F8500 with the VT60 or less then it would be a no-brainer for some to choose the F8500. As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.

Just checked prices on Amazon as a reference and, as has always been the case, the F8500 costs less than the VT60. I'm not sure where you've seen the F8500 costing more than a VT60.

The VT60 is 2nd best based on what criteria? MLL? Maybe. Start factoring in other things and the argument quickly becomes much more gray. wink.gif

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post #919 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Wait what? how is the VT60 a "good bit less" than the F8500?
Ill sue Best Buy since it is a major retailer and dont heavily discount prices:
64" F8500 $3499
65: VT60:$3599

I forget that unless you think Panasonic is the best you are "anti-panny (pro-pioneer\samsung)" how does that work out again????

60" is similar with F8500 being at least 100 less than VT60.

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post #920 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

After a while of reading there review's(probably it's just me) but I've noticed they always favor Panasonic over Samsung.
Plus I've red a lot of review's an comments saying good thing's about both companies and there 2013 Plasma set's.
Some time's I think cnet isn't a good sours for information to go to,sticking with forum's is the best choice because your getting honest people's and user's feedback and experience with the product it self.


are you only noticing this with their tv reviews or is cnet also favoring panasonic over samsung in all the other categories as well? I thought in the past samsung got higher marks for tv's compared to panasonic...maybe I was reading the LCD section.
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post #921 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Some seem to be ignoring anti-reflective benefits of the ZT60, which should help it immensely in brighter environments. From HDTVtest's review, where they go out of their way to comment on anti-reflective performance (I didn't see much in the way of discussion about this aspect in their F8500 review):

I dont think anyone is ignoring it, but antireflective is only part of the "bright room" performance.....Since the quote you took is from a UK set Ill say its probably better to hold off judgement until the NA sets get tested and reviewd (only a few days away)....The antireflective should help a great deal for those who are seeing reflections in the VT\ST that are bothering some people as long as all other aspects of the sets outside of the reflections make the sets worth keeping to that individual.....

Hopefully the Shootout will anwser some of the questions that have come up in the forum...

Interestingly that same review called the anti-reflective properties of the VT 'already outstanding', I must not have seen the VT yet. I'd hardly call its anti-reflective property 'outstanding'.

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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

VT60eview

^Where is the F8500 headline confirming that it beats the Kuro?

"But in a dim to dark room, the kind in which you'll want to watch any good TV to best appreciate its picture quality, the VT60 wins"

Mind you, the F8500 is not priced appreciably less than the VT60. If it were, then we could talk....

"Worse bright-room picture than that of the Samsung F8500" wink.gif

"The F8500 can produce a brighter image than competing plasmas, which combined with an excellent antireflective screen, leads to superb picture quality in high-ambient-light situations. If you have the kind of room that required an LED-based light cannon in the past, the F8500 might be bright enough to open your door to plasma." cool.gif
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http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm?page=Performance

If you need brightness and 3D performance, the F8500 will be the clear choice.

For black levels and such, ZT 60 will likely lead.
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I dont think anyone is ignoring it, but antireflective is only part of the "bright room" performance.....Since the quote you took is from a UK set Ill say its probably better to hold off judgement until the NA sets get tested and reviewd (only a few days away)....The antireflective should help a great deal for those who are seeing reflections in the VT\ST that are bothering some people as long as all other aspects of the sets outside of the reflections make the sets worth keeping to that individual.....

Hopefully the Shootout will anwser some of the questions that have come up in the forum...
A big part, though, and considering power requirements are more stringent in the UK, it would be hard to believe worse bright(ish) room performance would be exhibited in the US panel (they use the same coating if I'm not mistaken). In my experience, reflections and washout are the biggest deterrents to watching in the daytime. Nothing will work to combat the direct rays of the sun.
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As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.
What does this mean? Being a fan of the Pioneer panels makes you anti-Panasonic? I must've missed the memo.
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post #926 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

For those looking for a better depiction of bright scenes as the result of a less aggressive ABL, better sharpness, better dynamic range, black levels that would have been considered 'best in class' in 2012 and better reflection control, it's not hard at all to see why someone would spend the same money or more on the 8500. :-)

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LOL. The 60" ST60 is $1,500 and is the closest competition for the F8500 in performance. For those who want a "closest to reference" experience then only the VT60 and ZT60 have appeal. Look, if the showdown proves otherwise, then we can all celebrate. Until then, the VT60 is the 2nd best on the market today and costs a good bit less than the F8500. Had Sammy priced the F8500 with the VT60 or less then it would be a no-brainer for some to choose the F8500. As it is, only the anti-Panny (pro-Pioneer) folks could feel differently.

Whatever floats your boat. I'm tired of the wheels going round and round. We shall agree to disagree.

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Full lumiére the F8500 is a mirror, anti-glare FITRE is not effective ...




rolleyes.gif





Really? rolleyes.gif
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

A big part, though, and considering power requirements are more stringent in the UK, it would be hard to believe worse bright(ish) room performance would be exhibited in the US panel (they use the same coating if I'm not mistaken). In my experience, reflections and washout are the biggest deterrents to watching in the daytime. Nothing will work to combat the direct rays of the sun.

Jsut to add I would ahve preferred they did a test against an ST60/VT60 instead of the ST50. The "test" didnt make much sense to me using the older and "bottom" set......

You are correct though it is a big part of it, only a few days left and we will see how different the EU nd NA sets are smile.gif
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post #929 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 11:37 AM
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I've was able to compare the F8500 to the VT60 to the Sony 55" 4K. First, pricing. The F8500 and VT60 are virtually the same price at BB. Minor price differences exist between the two at different settlers. The Sony is much more expensive. Second, picture quality. The Sony's picture quality was very sharp. Black levels were not reference. I was let down with all the hype with 4K. The Sony is definitely a transitional product. I think I was let down because the Sony is LED and now that I have seen how good plasma can be, LCD/LED look relatively opaque compared to plasma and appear to hide fine detail in comparison to plasma. I also find plasma to have a more natural picture quality than LCD/LED. The F8500 and VT60 had just as good as picture quality as the Sony. I prefer the F8500 over the VT60. I think the F8500's panel is clearer and lets more detail come through than the VT60. The VT60 is a lot dimmer than the F8500. The perceived contrast ratio of the F8500 is way better than the VT60. The VT60 has a lot of dithering that is noticeable close to the screen. The F8500 dithering is much more benign. BTW, I have wanting an Elite for a very long time. While the Elite has very good black levels, it is an LCD/LED panel. Fine detail is obscured, not as much as other LCDs, but I could see the obscuration. BB was willing to be negotiable on their Elite pricing and if I took one home, I would probably forget about the obscuration of fine detail. Even with discount pricing, the Elite is still too expensive in my opinion. The Elite seems to cater to those who want plasma quality but LED brightness. If only Sharp had priced the Elite more close to earth, I think it would have been a bigger success. Got off topic with the Elite as I want to state my two cents worth on the VT60. Every commercial review rates the VT60 better than the F8500. I think this is rubbish. The F8500 panel is clearer, gives finer details, and gets brighter while having outstanding black levels. All around better performance. If black level is most important to you and that is your holy grail for a TV, great...buy the VT60 or ZT60....or I will sell you my Sony XBR2....just turn down the backlight and brigtness and you get all the black you desire biggrin.gif If you keep an open mind, you will see the strengths of the F8500 over the VT60. You don't need to be a zombie and follow the crowd. Let your eyes be the judge. Its OK if you like the VT60 over the F8500. Buy what you like! I just happen to like the F8500 over the VT60. BTW, I read on this forum that BB will match internet pricing. I could not get BB to match anything other than Amazon.
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post #930 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post

I've was able to compare the F8500 to the VT60 to the Sony 55" 4K. First, pricing. The F8500 and VT60 are virtually the same price at BB. Minor price differences exist between the two at different settlers. The Sony is much more expensive. Second, picture quality. The Sony's picture quality was very sharp. Black levels were not reference. I was let down with all the hype with 4K. The Sony is definitely a transitional product. I think I was let down because the Sony is LED and now that I have seen how good plasma can be, LCD/LED look relatively opaque compared to plasma and appear to hide fine detail in comparison to plasma. I also find plasma to have a more natural picture quality than LCD/LED. The F8500 and VT60 had just as good as picture quality as the Sony. I prefer the F8500 over the VT60. I think the F8500's panel is clearer and lets more detail come through than the VT60. The VT60 is a lot dimmer than the F8500. The perceived contrast ratio of the F8500 is way better than the VT60. The VT60 has a lot of dithering that is noticeable close to the screen. The F8500 dithering is much more benign. BTW, I have wanting an Elite for a very long time. While the Elite has very good black levels, it is an LCD/LED panel. Fine detail is obscured, not as much as other LCDs, but I could see the obscuration. BB was willing to be negotiable on their Elite pricing and if I took one home, I would probably forget about the obscuration of fine detail. Even with discount pricing, the Elite is still too expensive in my opinion. The Elite seems to cater to those who want plasma quality but LED brightness. If only Sharp had priced the Elite more close to earth, I think it would have been a bigger success. Got off topic with the Elite as I want to state my two cents worth on the VT60. Every commercial review rates the VT60 better than the F8500. I think this is rubbish. The F8500 panel is clearer, gives finer details, and gets brighter while having outstanding black levels. All around better performance. If black level is most important to you and that is your holy grail for a TV, great...buy the VT60 or ZT60....or I will sell you my Sony XBR2....just turn down the backlight and brigtness and you get all the black you desire biggrin.gif If you keep an open mind, you will see the strengths of the F8500 over the VT60. You don't need to be a zombie and follow the crowd. Let your eyes be the judge. Its OK if you like the VT60 over the F8500. Buy what you like! I just happen to like the F8500 over the VT60. BTW, I read on this forum that BB will match internet pricing. I could not get BB to match anything other than Amazon.

Big surprise you bought the 8500 and favor it thanks for giving everyone permission to buy what the feel is the best set for them

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