F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I was always amazed that sitting on either side if a love seat could wash out the opposite side of the screen from 12 ft back - I don't know how they thought that was acceptable.


Well, the same way as if you have a really bright room you wouldn't buy a plasma.....except the 8500. Each type of display has it's compromises.

Well i know from experience you're certainly wrong there. I have a bright room and bought a vt50 plasma. I even turned the brightness down.

Although you could say you are right because I did try the LCD first since some reviews said it worked better in a bright room. It didn't IMO and I put my $ where my opinion is quite quickly afterwards biggrin.gif
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post #992 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Well i know from experience you're certainly wrong there. I have a bright room and bought a vt50 plasma. I even turned the brightness down.

Although you could say you are right because I did try the LCD first since some reviews said it worked better in a bright room. It didn't IMO and I put my $ where my opinion is quite quickly afterwards biggrin.gif

Vt50 in bright room ...wink.gif


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post #993 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:21 PM
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Yea sure...it might also like her because she's cute and the only girl on the site tongue.gif

not the only girl biggrin.gif

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post #994 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

How about Sony HX950? It's not plasma but it has the best black level, which is what you are looking for.....smile.gif

It's an LCD. Plasmas display black much better. Even if the LCD's number are lower.

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post #995 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

It's an LCD. Plasmas display black much better. Even if the LCD's number are lower.

Incorrect

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post #996 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

Vt50 in bright room ...wink.gif


Nice but the blacks are washed out a bit, like my Kuro is in light.

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post #997 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

It's an LCD. Plasmas display black much better. Even if the LCD's number are lower.

No. What you could say is the best LED's (Elite, HX950) do blacks a little better but Plasmas have better shadow detail.

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post #998 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

Incorrect

Yes they do. For example plasmas would be able to handle a full star field better than a LCD. There's only so much a few hundred LED zones can do.

The Sharp measures lower than the regular 9G's right?
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In a field of the best TVs we have ever seen in the CNET offices, the VT60 and the Pioneer Kuro were easily the darkest in the room . Watching dark scenes from "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2," like the hillside as the camera flies by Voldemort's amassed army, both the Kuro and VT60 were able to bring out the individual faces on the combatants without sacrificing deep black in the shadowy areas of the valley below . Though they were neck and neck, the Panasonic had a little bit more shade -- particularly in black bars. The Sharp Elite and Samsung F8500 couldn't get quite as dark , while the VT50 and the others appeared a bit lighter still.

LCD's can't handle blacks like plasmas.

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post #999 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:41 PM
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Yea sure...it might also like her because she's cute and the only girl on the site tongue.gif

Not really. Her post are golden!
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post #1000 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Yes they do. For example plasmas would be able to handle a full star field better than a LCD. There's only so much a few hundred LED zones can do.

The Sharp measures lower than the regular 9G's right?


LCD's can't handle blacks like plasmas.

LOL

Sony HX950 can turn dark areas completely off unlike Sharp Elite. Thus reaching pure black. Darker than any LCD's, plasmas, including your kuro.....wink.gif

Your Cnet quote "In a field of the best TVs we have ever seen in the CNET offices, the VT60 and the Pioneer Kuro were easily the darkest in the room . Watching dark scenes from "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2," like the hillside as the camera flies by Voldemort's amassed army, both the Kuro and VT60 were able to bring out the individual faces on the combatants without sacrificing deep black in the shadowy areas of the valley below . Though they were neck and neck, the Panasonic had a little bit more shade -- particularly in black bars. The Sharp Elite and Samsung F8500 couldn't get quite as dark , while the VT50 and the others appeared a bit lighter still."

Let's put Kuro and VT60 in the bright room with Sharp elite and F8500. Can you guess what Cnet's answer will be???......wink.gif

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post #1001 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 08:59 PM
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There's only so much a few hundred LED zones can do.
Imagine what 1500 zones could do. Thats more accurate.

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post #1002 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 09:22 PM
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Nice but the blacks are washed out a bit, like my Kuro is in light.

Yep, blacks turn grey and everything washes out with bad reflection in daylight. Looks great in the dark though. smile.gif

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post #1003 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 09:49 PM
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I watch TV in the daytime and blacks don't wash out. Why? Because i don't have light shining directly on the TV. No TV should.

You guys really are nuts with this daytime viewing nonsense.
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post #1004 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 09:54 PM
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not the only girl biggrin.gif

Ooooooops....sorry redface.gif
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post #1005 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:01 PM
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I've always thought comparing blacks while looking at pics on the Internet from my lcd screen was not very intelligent of me...
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post #1006 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:09 PM
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I watch TV in the daytime and blacks don't wash out. Why? Because i don't have light shining directly on the TV. No TV should.

You guys really are nuts with this daytime viewing nonsense.

I watch tv in the daytime and blacks do wash out. Light is not facing directly at the tv.

It's not nonsense. It's fact

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post #1007 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:21 PM
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Correct-amundo!

Although the anti-glare filter is very good, it's not a matte screen and it shows glare, that's for sure, but it's how well the picture holds up that is so impressive. Mine is in a great room with a wall made up entirely of sliding glass doors and although the sun does not come directly in, it shines off the pool water and the room is full of reflected light during the day. The F8500 picture is very solid and clear in this environment, from all angles and distances. It's a wonderful feature of the set...you don't have to pull the blinds to enjoy a really nice picture smile.gif

That is wonderful, if the set is looking that good in this picture, I just think it will be more awesome in real. It is really jaw dropping. No exaggerations. I will post my impressions when I get it. Jackobots, you made the right purchase decision and as you said the ZT should have a way better PQ than F8500 to be easy for you to return this one and the PQ should justify the price too.

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post #1008 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:27 PM
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Like it or not he brings up a good point. Black level isn't everything, but talking to some people you'd think it is. We all know it's heavily important - of course. Judging that we're all buying plasmas here I think that's a given that we can all agree on.

But there's no meter or metric for clarity (that I know of). 3D is not factored in to the overall rating enough IMO (hell only one reviewer even seems to mention single-line scan). How well does it perform motion smoothing? And then there are all the other factors (buzz, aesthetics, digital media playback performance, video processing on less than ideal sources, etc). Judging a TV almost solely on how well it shows blacks on a 2D blu-ray source is narrow-minded in my opinion. Obviously if that's all you watch that's one thing, but for me I watch DirecTV and Blu-Ray in both 2D and 3D and I watch streaming media, etc. I can't be the only one. I think we'd all do well to take into account the wide variety of various people's viewing needs and desires and dispense with some of the traditional purism.

Absolutely true. A consumer should take into account everything when making a purchase. That is not only applicable on TVs but everything.

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post #1009 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:33 PM
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Here's one thing you almost never see discussed. Everyone here talks blacks blacks blacks. But relatively speaking, when a signal asks the screen to display large expanses of white or something bright (a high APL), how about that kind of accuracy? Does that not count? This speaks to a display's dynamic range. Can it achieve those peak white values while still getting deep blacks. Yeah, ANSI partly responds to that, but IMO not totally. It still doesn't account for how much of a screen's white needs to be called upon before that screen throttles back.

IMO there's accuracy here too. If I have a display that can register really deep blacks, but just can't accurately display large expanses of white, is that accurate? I'm sorry, I absolutely, positively don't subscribe to the fact that the upper regions of the scale don't count. It aint just about black IMO. smile.gif

Thats what I'm saying too. As if human eyes are not meant to see anything but black!!
The 2012 panny plasmas I saw with white looked soooooo gray. It was like I was watching a TV in a calculator screen!! What a turn off.

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post #1010 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:50 PM
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It is interesting with the Magnolia guys. Let me say this, I agree with those that say these guys get a bum rap. I've seen a dramatic improvement in their knowledge base over the last several years. We're a long way away from when I remember hearing a BB guy say to a customer "Yeah, but you'll have to fill that plasma with gas in a few years". Yup, I did hear that as have others. Today, most of these guys are either fairly knowledgeable or surprisingly knowledgeable and almost all are very helpful. We have one Magnolia Mgr (actually more than one, but one that I know out here on L.I.), that posts here and is a very knowledgeable guy who makes a concerted effort to properly adjust his displays. Unfortunately his store has a defective F8500 that they're getting replaced.

As for the Elite, yup, if that last production run of 70" Elites hadn't gone south, I would have bought one in a heartbeat. I still think, on-axis, the Elite puts out the best picture I've ever seen. Bar none. It's greatest weakness, IMO, is off-axis viewing. It's pretty poor. Yeah, you'll hear all the talk about color accuracy, but I bet you didn't see anything that made you think the colors you saw were inaccurate. But for black levels, the ability to produce exceptional full-screen brightness and its overall PQ, the display is just stunning.

With that said, in the world of plasmas, I'm finding the F8500 comes damn close to the Elite...more than I ever thought a plasma could. At the same time the viewing angles are broad in the way plasmas typically are. Yeah, the blacks are not quite as black as the Elite, but for all intents and purposes, the brightness is in the ballpark, certainly the ballpark I typically have my calibrated Elite at and the sharpness is right there too. It's the only plasma I've seen thus far that wouldn't make me depressed that I can't get that new Elite. It's the best all-around performer I see in today's market.

What do I miss with the F8500? Well, contrary to what many think about LED and motion handling, I still find the Elite's motion handling to be better than any plasma. The judder of a plasma is quite a bit different than how my eyes see rapid motion. The Elite comes much closer. I never see a staccato effect with my own eyes when viewing fast paced motion. Do you? I'd much rather have a bit of blurring as opposed to that staccato effect of judder. I should add that I hate the SOE, so I'll have none of that in an attempt to smooth motion. But you do get used to it as I did with my Kuro and Fujitsus.

So barring an upset (as far as my eyes are concerned) and the ZT exhibiting a less aggressive ABL behavior than the VT, and an overall improved apparent sharpness over the VT, I'm leaning pretty heavily at this point toward the 8500.

I don't have any issues with the Magnolia guys. I know what I need to know already when I go look at stuff, so I don't go into the store seeking info. I go to evaluate. You and I both know the F8500 can't get as bright as an Elite, but the brightness and clarity of the F8500 panel stunned me when I saw it. I was a dedicated LCD guy until I saw the F8500. I agree the blacks are not as deep as the Elite, but sometimes the blacks of the F8500 look more natural. I really don't care because coming from my XBR2, the black levels of the F8500 look great. You come from an Elite, so your frame of reference is totally different as you have lived with the best. I don't see any kind of motion artifact on the F8500. If I see anything, it is because some kind of motion interpolation is set up in the menu. Turn them all off and no motion artifacts exist. My XBR2 didn't have any blurring with sports (none at all), but stuttered with panning shots. I knew this before I bought the XBR so no big deal. I can seen rainbows in plasmas, however; but, only if I move my eyes real fast looking away from the tv towards something else in the room. I don't know if this is due to the plasma technology or the screen filter. Any way, not a deal breaker at all for me. I agree the Elite I saw had no motion issues whatsoever. I think you would be happy with the motion handling of the F8500. The Elite colors looked accurate to me. I actually like the idea of quattron and could tell a difference when watching program material. Whether the quattron was "acurrate" or not I don't know, nor did I care because I liked what I saw. Sorta tubes vs. solid state. Classic tube sound is not accurate, but it can sure sound good. Basically, it is coming down to getting a 64" F8500 cheaper than I can get a 60" Elite. I am still toying with the idea of going back to Magnolia and seeing if I can negotiate a better price on their Elite display model, but 64" of F8500 for less than 60" of Elite is holding me back. Plus, I'm not sure what kind of warranty coverage Sharp will provide with an open box Elite, nor is there an equivalent replacement of like kind and quality (2nd gen Elite). I saw at open box Elite 60" at Magnolia for $3100, but was so enamored with the F8500 I passed on the Elite since it looked like it had done a tour of duty cosmetically. The other open box Elite I tried to get for $3,100 at Magnolia's sister store on the other side of the city was a no go. The simply did not believe me that their sister store had the same display for $3,100. I too want to see how VE shoot out goes with the ZT60 before I buy another display.

Chad at Cleveland Plasma, can you make me a deal I CAN NOT resist on a 60" Elite?

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post #1011 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 10:51 PM
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I watch tv in the daytime and blacks do wash out. Light is not facing directly at the tv.

It's not nonsense. It's fact

lol.

That's you and your environment man. It doesn't happen to me. My room gets VERY bright during the day and blacks stay black. Only when i open the shades and let ALOT of light in does it wash out. But i don't watch TV with sunlight hitting the screen. I'm sure nobody here does.

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post #1012 of 3105 Old 05-08-2013, 11:56 PM
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lol.

That's you and your environment man. It doesn't happen to me. My room gets VERY bright during the day and blacks stay black. Only when i open the shades and let ALOT of light in does it wash out[/B]. But i don't watch TV with sunlight hitting the screen. I'm sure nobody here does.

lmao

Your watching in light controlled room. Blacks stay black of course.....wink.gif

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post #1013 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 12:27 AM
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I watch TV in the daytime and blacks don't wash out. Why? Because i don't have light shining directly on the TV. No TV should.

You guys really are nuts with this daytime viewing nonsense.
Hello ,
I never watch TV the day, a cinema picture looks in the dark for the best performance ...
That's all I spend my evenings in front of my screen and I takes pleasure ... eek.gif
I work more than two months since I'm retired, but happiness ...

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post #1014 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 03:40 AM
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It's an LCD. Plasmas display black much better. Even if the LCD's number are lower.

Say what?!
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post #1015 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 03:48 AM
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Ooooooops....sorry redface.gif

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Yea sure...it might also like her because she's cute and the only girl on the site tongue.gif


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post #1016 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

I watch tv in the daytime and blacks do wash out. Light is not facing directly at the tv.

It's not nonsense. It's fact

Of course they do. I had a Pro 151 and the difference in how blacks were displayed during the day (with no direct light shining on the screen) and at night, was a 'day and night' difference (pun intended).

I would assume that most, who are after that last tiny bit of MLL, would never go out to the movies. With an MLL that's hugely higher than either of these two displays we're talking about here, I'd think the movie theater experience would make them physically ill.

So for those that think some 'obsess' over how a display performs in other than bat cave conditions, there's the flip side. Do any of you guys ever go out to the movies? Ever? I can't never remember anyone ever saying 'I couldn't enjoy that movie, because of those lousy black levels?' And let's face it, black levels in any movie theater are horrid.
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post #1017 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I've always thought comparing blacks while looking at pics on the Internet from my lcd screen was not very intelligent of me...

I'm really getting tired of posts that are logical and fact-filled. Enough. wink.gif
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post #1018 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 04:26 AM
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What about finishing construction and reliability dand time between F8500 and ZT60 ??? wink.gif
the old Kuro is a tough ... cool.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1019 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Urga View Post

What about finishing construction and reliability dand time between F8500 and ZT60 ??? wink.gif
the old Kuro is a tough ... cool.gif

Build quality of these panels are top notch. Can't really say about their reliability since they are realitively new. F8500 been out for few months and ZT have not been released yet. But looking at their track record, they should be just as realiable as any other models in their line up.

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post #1020 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 05:39 AM
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As a current owner of a 101Fd. Light do not need to be shining directly onto Tv for the blacks to wash out. Once there is sufficient daylight the panel simply cannot exhibit the same level of black as it do in a complete dark room and even then the sharp elite still exhibit darker blacks than the kuro. That being said I'm very anxious to see how the ZT perform in the shootout.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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