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post #1081 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 12:10 PM
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I don't get it. This from HDGuru after CES.

"For 2013 Panasonic made great improvements in panel performance with its new Studio Master Panel, eliminating the air gap between the front glass and plasma panel, new 3000 focused field drive, a new phosphor and a new front louver filter. The result is a far brighter picture than any previous plasma coupled with the deepest black levels ever. At the press conference, journalists around me wondered if the panel was a plasma or LED LCD, because of its intense brightness."

Yet the reviews for the VT60 and ZT60 don't seem to support the brightness claims.

Wait until the shootout for NA models, we still ahvent had an ZT60 review yet only ZT65 (EU)......Also that statememnt sounds like marketing hype wink.gif

Agree on waiting for the shootout, but In his review, Chad calls the brightness of the VT60 "unspectacular". We'll see in a couple of days.

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post #1082 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 01:10 PM
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Ken Ross: Is there any chance that viewing the Elite has skewed your preference to the f8500? If you were going straight from the Kuro to comparing the VT60 and the f8500 and had never viewed the Elite LCD would you still have the same preference for the f8500?

Now don't get me wrong--I haven't viewed these sets but I would agree with you--if in most lighting conditions you can't see the greater blacks then what is the use in buying a display where you never do see the difference?

Most of the time I would say that the blackest blacks rule but not if the other display is a Zillion times brighter with only slightly less black blacks.

You also say that the f8500 looked sharper--sharpness can overcome slightly blacker blacks, too when you're pondering overall picture quality.

What IF displays have the OPTIMUM backlighting--YES that could help displays with even super low black levels like these?

I don't know about most people but I think that if someone is going to spend nearly 4 grand that spending a little for backlighting is not absurd.

What then? Does backlighting figure into the equation of which display is best ASSUMING that it is used?

My opinion is this: blacker lacks win 99% of the time but it is possible for them to lose 1% of the time.

Art, keep in mind that in moving to the Elite, I saw qualities in that picture I had never seen in my Kuro. So you are correct in a sense in saying the Elite skewed my preference toward the F8500. However, if the Elite never existed, the same qualities I saw that drew me to the Elite would be the same qualities that draw me to the 8500. Great blacks, great brightness, great sharpness and obviously not related to the Elite but solely to plasmas, a less aggressive ABL. The all-round PQ that this produces (and again I emphasize great blacks even if not 2013's best...I can't emphasize that enough since many here seem to make it seem like the Samsung blacks are 'so so' and you'd only buy it if you want great bright room viewing...untrue, absolutely untrue) is a winner for me.
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post #1083 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

I don't get it. This from HDGuru after CES.

"For 2013 Panasonic made great improvements in panel performance with its new Studio Master Panel, eliminating the air gap between the front glass and plasma panel, new 3000 focused field drive, a new phosphor and a new front louver filter. The result is a far brighter picture than any previous plasma coupled with the deepest black levels ever. At the press conference, journalists around me wondered if the panel was a plasma or LED LCD, because of its intense brightness."

Yet the reviews for the VT60 and ZT60 don't seem to support the brightness claims.

Not in my observations either. Even with a Magnolia associate that knew the panel, we could never get it to look as bright as my Kuro. The specs from the EU sets seem to support that. I reaaaaally doubt Panny is going to beefing up the power supply or changing the way the ABL works for their NA sets. I am beginning to they are just setting the VT/ZT to look best in a dimly lit room, with occasional bright room viewing. In this situation these sets will deliver best black levels out there.

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post #1084 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

I don't get it. This from HDGuru after CES.

"For 2013 Panasonic made great improvements in panel performance with its new Studio Master Panel, eliminating the air gap between the front glass and plasma panel, new 3000 focused field drive, a new phosphor and a new front louver filter. The result is a far brighter picture than any previous plasma coupled with the deepest black levels ever. At the press conference, journalists around me wondered if the panel was a plasma or LED LCD, because of its intense brightness."

Yet the reviews for the VT60 and ZT60 don't seem to support the brightness claims.

Sometimes you wonder what panels these guys are looking at. Let's see what the brightness of the ZT60 is at the shootout. We may be surprised one way or the other. wink.gif
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post #1085 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:19 PM
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Well, the only review I read that kind of came to that conclusion was cnet's, and the only feature they seemed to notice that was innovative about the F8500 was it's brightness. If they did not mention the name, I never would of dreamed they were reviewing the tv I've had in my house for over a month. They never even mentioned it's totally unique and redesigned panel or even that it is the first to use a quad core processor.

They also ignored the most obvious advantage the F8500 has over the VT60, that anyone who has seen them together can testify, the F8500 provides a clearer, more detailed picture. No one can honestly say they have ever seen a more detailed picture on a plasma, because without question, it provides the most detailed picture ever produced by any plasma tv. But, you would have no way of knowing that if all you had to go on was that incredibly poorly done review cnet produced.
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post #1086 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, the only review I read that kind of came to that conclusion was cnet's, and the only feature they seemed to notice that was innovative about the F8500 was it's brightness. If they did not mention the name, I never would of dreamed they were reviewing the tv I've had in my house for over a month. They never even mentioned it's totally unique and redesigned panel or even that it is the first to use a quad core processor.

They also ignored the most obvious advantage the F8500 has over the VT60, that anyone who has seen them together can testify, the F8500 provides a clearer, more detailed picture. No one can honestly say they have ever seen a more detailed picture on a plasma, because without question, it provides the most detailed picture ever produced by any plasma tv. But, you would have no way of knowing that if all you had to go on was that incredibly poorly done review cnet produced.

It is amazing how they can fail to mention these very obvious characteristics.

But hey, look at it this way, they're not watching the display in your house, you are. smile.gif
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post #1087 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It is amazing how they can fail to mention these very obvious characteristics.

oooops...that was in response to Dad's 1080 post...sorry!
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post #1088 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:25 PM
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The truth hurts 99.9% of the time. The key word is "Probably" which means reasonably true/ factual. You're reading too much into it.

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post #1089 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Wait until the shootout for NA models, we still ahvent had an ZT60 review yet only ZT65 (EU)......Also that statememnt sounds like marketing hype wink.gif

I'm glad someone realizes we haven't actually seen a ZT60 yet wink.gif
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post #1090 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 02:53 PM
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Not really. Her post are golden!

Yes, very intelligent. However, I am buttering her up because I want access to her Blu-Ray and DVD collection when I travel to her country. Probably after she gets her F8500 wink.gif
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post #1091 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 03:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, the only review I read that kind of came to that conclusion was cnet's, and the only feature they seemed to notice that was innovative about the F8500 was it's brightness. If they did not mention the name, I never would of dreamed they were reviewing the tv I've had in my house for over a month. They never even mentioned it's totally unique and redesigned panel or even that it is the first to use a quad core processor
With all due respect, the innards (like a quad-core processor) aren't important when it comes to measuring PQ. Now if that quad core processor is responsible for the processing that gives a greater sharpness perception, then I can see where it would behoove them to mention it.
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They also ignored the most obvious advantage the F8500 has over the VT60, that anyone who has seen them together can testify, the F8500 provides a clearer, more detailed picture. No one can honestly say they have ever seen a more detailed picture on a plasma, because without question, it provides the most detailed picture ever produced by any plasma tv. But, you would have no way of knowing that if all you had to go on was that incredibly poorly done review cnet produced.
Well, they probably didn't observe the two side-by-side when completing their respective reviews. HDTV Test have also seen both TVs, and they do mention the presence of some high-frequency gain utilized by Panasonic that is not on the Samsung, but they don't come to the same conclusion about the sharpness that several here are proclaiming:
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Originally Posted by HDTVTest 
We’ve heard some online discussion where it’s claimed that the PS64F8500 has a “sharper” image than other plasma televisions. Given that basically every recent 1080p plasma display panel has been able to resolve at least full static detail from a 1920×1080 source (let’s ignore plasma-centric issues like gradation and dithering for a second), we’re not sure what the basis of these is, but we’d imagine that it has a lot to do with the F8500′s superior contrast performance, which could be said to make images appear perceptibly sharper.

In fact, Samsung’s plasmas produce minutely cleaner frequency response than Panasonic’s, since the Japanese manufacturer is still applying a bit of (essentially invisible) gain to high frequencies. Short of observing tiny differences in the contrast of small textures, the only way to spot this is to scrutinise test charts, so to be frank, it’s barely relevant 99% of the time – still, thumbs up to Samsung for providing genuine untampered images in this regard. You’ll never notice the difference, but the quality of both of these TV brands’ products is so outstanding that this is the sort of pixel-peeping we’re ultimately led to.
Maybe this high-frequency gain is more noticeable than HDTV acknowledges. Otherwise it must be a conspiracy. wink.gif
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post #1092 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 03:48 PM
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I think a better comparison would be that if you prefer a softer, slightly less detailed picture, go with the VT60. If you prefer a little edgier, more detailed picture, the F8500 is for you.
this is the first thing I've read in a while that makes perfect sense to me. I would like to know if either can be made to look the other way. Can the VT be adjusted to look more edgier......can the F8500 be made to look softer....if one prefers?
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post #1093 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, the only review I read that kind of came to that conclusion was cnet's, and the only feature they seemed to notice that was innovative about the F8500 was it's brightness. If they did not mention the name, I never would of dreamed they were reviewing the tv I've had in my house for over a month. They never even mentioned it's totally unique and redesigned panel or even that it is the first to use a quad core processor.

They also ignored the most obvious advantage the F8500 has over the VT60, that anyone who has seen them together can testify, the F8500 provides a clearer, more detailed picture. No one can honestly say they have ever seen a more detailed picture on a plasma, because without question, it provides the most detailed picture ever produced by any plasma tv. But, you would have no way of knowing that if all you had to go on was that incredibly poorly done review cnet produced.

If it looks more detailed, it's because it's applying filters and other video processing techniques to the image.

Reviewers generally don't care about how "detailed" something looks, they care that the image is true to the source. If a source sucks and looks 10x better with video processing, then too bad; reviewers don't care about that. You are completely free to disagree with the review process, but at least it's objective.

For me, I use the TV solely to watch 1080p blu-ray in a dark room, so I think the Panasonic is the superior TV for me. I will agree that the Samsung looks better with less-than-ideal sources during the daytime, but that's not something I watch.
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post #1094 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 07:07 PM
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If it looks more detailed, it's because it's applying filters and other video processing techniques to the image.

For me, I use the TV solely to watch 1080p blu-ray in a dark room, so I think the Panasonic is the superior TV for me. I will agree that the Samsung looks better with less-than-ideal sources during the daytime, but that's not something I watch.

Well, a picture can also appear clearer and more detailed through hardware innovation, like Samsung has achieved via pixel modification on the F8500 panel. Hopefully, Panasonic will also be able to provide similar improvements with the new design of the ZT60 panel. For me, that's the big question going into the shootout. These two new panel designs are by far the most interesting and exciting things to happen to plasma technology in many years.

It's obvious, at least to my eyes, at this moment in time, that the F8500 is the best plasma on the market...even if you only watch 1080p blu-ray in a dark room. The ZT60 may change all that and I'm hoping it will...because I'll end up with an even better tv. biggrin.gif

I do agree that with all things being equal as far as the panel technology is concerned, then yes, it's all about filters and video processing., but that's not the case this year.
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this is the first thing I've read in a while that makes perfect sense to me. I would like to know if either can be made to look the other way. Can the VT be adjusted to look more edgier......can the F8500 be made to look softer....if one prefers?

Maybe Samsung and Panasonic will merge together and create the most perfect plasma's the world has ever seen...then again, maybe not mad.gif
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post #1096 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 07:41 PM
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With all due respect, the innards (like a quad-core processor) aren't important when it comes to measuring PQ. Now if that quad core processor is responsible for the processing that gives a greater sharpness perception, then I can see where it would behoove them to mention it.

I'm pretty sure a quad core processor can be used to assist in video processing and help improve picture quality, but that wasn't my point. It clearly results in a much faster smart interface and they did not even mention it in the portion of the review dedicated to the smart tv qualities of the panel.

Plus, one of the most exciting topics of CES 2013 was the innovative new panel design developed for the F8500. How can any quality reviewer not even discuss it in their review???

To me, that review was an embarrassment to cnet...it was fluffy and amateurish.
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post #1097 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 08:19 PM
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I'm glad someone realizes we haven't actually seen a ZT60 yet wink.gif

I have I have! smile.gif
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post #1098 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 08:23 PM
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Maybe this high-frequency gain is more noticeable than HDTV acknowledges. Otherwise it must be a conspiracy. wink.gif

Yup, our eyes are deceiving us. Nice to know that virtually every time I've seen these two side by side, even though the 8500 appears noticeably sharper, it's just my eyes playing tricks on me...and all the others that have reported the same thing. biggrin.gif
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post #1099 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 08:37 PM
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Well, a picture can also appear clearer and more detailed through hardware innovation, ...
"Clear and detailed" means no blurs, right? The easiest way to reduce blurring is for a TV to be incapable of producing the intermediate shades that are required to reproduce blurs. That is, false contouring makes a picture appear clear and detailed.

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"Clear and detailed" means no blurs, right? The easiest way to reduce blurring is for a TV to be incapable of producing the intermediate shades that are required to reproduce blurs. That is, false contouring makes a picture appear clear and detailed.

So Greg, are you saying the greater apparent sharpness of the 8500 is due to false contouring??? I know what false contouring looks like and the 8500 is not guilty of that. Hopefully you weren't implying that. eek.gif
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post #1101 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 08:58 PM
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So Greg, are you saying the greater apparent sharpness of the 8500 is due to false contouring??? I know what false contouring looks like and the 8500 is not guilty of that. Hopefully you weren't implying that. eek.gif
I haven't seen either the F8500 or ZT60, so I have no definite opinion about the foundation of this report that the F8500 has a "clear and detailed" image. People aren't saying just what they mean by "clear and detailed", and I can't figure what is meant by it. The fact that an advertised design feature of the ST/VT/ZT60 line is enhanced reproduction of intermediate grey levels does make me suspicious that people may be mistakenly be taking this for a flaw, when it's actually a feature.

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post #1102 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 09:22 PM
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If it looks more detailed, it's because it's applying filters and other video processing techniques to the image.

Reviewers generally don't care about how "detailed" something looks, they care that the image is true to the source. If a source sucks and looks 10x better with video processing, then too bad; reviewers don't care about that. You are completely free to disagree with the review process, but at least it's objective.

For me, I use the TV solely to watch 1080p blu-ray in a dark room, so I think the Panasonic is the superior TV for me. I will agree that the Samsung looks better with less-than-ideal sources during the daytime, but that's not something I watch.

Wow that is a major assumption based on absolutely nothing. Are you saying the source wasn't detailed to begin with? Watch a blu-ray with high quality PQ on the Samsung, with no processing and tell me it's not more detailed or that it's somehow not present in the source itself. It's not adding anything. What would it be "adding". It's the panel and/or pixel design most likely.And I can't imagine how this extreme clarity would not be desirable by anyone who cares about PQ.

In fact, it's the Panny that has slight but undefeatable sharpening according to HDTV Test review. The Samsung has no such undefeatable sharpening. That doesn't really work well for your argument.

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post #1103 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 09:24 PM
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I'm pretty sure a quad core processor can be used to assist in video processing and help improve picture quality, but that wasn't my point. It clearly results in a much faster smart interface and they did not even mention it in the portion of the review dedicated to the smart tv qualities of the panel.

Plus, one of the most exciting topics of CES 2013 was the innovative new panel design developed for the F8500. How can any quality reviewer not even discuss it in their review???

To me, that review was an embarrassment to cnet...it was fluffy and amateurish.

The quad core processing can surly be used to present better 3D, improved cable/satellite picture, and better 2D to 3D conversion in addition to better UI, better streaming, etc. Discounting the processing horsepower in a modern TV seems short-sighted.

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post #1104 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 09:27 PM
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"Clear and detailed" means no blurs, right? The easiest way to reduce blurring is for a TV to be incapable of producing the intermediate shades that are required to reproduce blurs. That is, false contouring makes a picture appear clear and detailed.

Its' totally not a lack of blur. It's detail. It's obvious if you look at the same material side by side. the ZT60 may very well look this way due to its bonded panel but I haven't seen one yet.

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Wow that is a major assumption based on absolutely nothing. Are you saying the source wasn't detailed to begin with? Watch a blu-ray with high quality PQ on the Samsung, with no processing and tell me it's not more detailed or that it's somehow not present in the source itself. It's not adding anything. What would it be "adding". It's the panel and/or pixel design most likely.And I can't imagine how this extreme clarity would not be desirable by anyone who cares about PQ.

In fact, it's the Panny that has slight but undefeatable sharpening according to HDTV Test review. The Samsung has no such undefeatable sharpening. That doesn't really work well for your argument.
I just checked HDTVtest's reviews and they confirm your report here. Undefeatable high-frequency sharpening in the Panasonic whereas it is defeatable in the Samsung. This must be playing some role, but it seems to be having the opposite effect one would expect (or it's, like you said, the unique pixel structure of the F8500 playing a role).
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I just checked HDTVtest's reviews and they confirm your report here. Undefeatable high-frequency sharpening in the Panasonic whereas it is defeatable in the Samsung. This must be playing some role, but it seems to be having the opposite effect one would expect (or it's, like you said, the unique pixel structure of the F8500 playing a role).

Yeah it does seem counter-intuitive doesn't it? Which is why I suspect the panel design and/or pixel structure. Or both?

Samsung PN64F8500 (still within return policy window and open minded)
Oppo BDP-93
DirecTV HR-24
Denon AVR 2309-CI
Definitive Technology 5.1 system
Harmony One remote
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post #1107 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 11:16 PM
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If the 8500 had the same great input lag as Panny it would be a great contender but now since I also like to play games I can't see it as a good alternative frown.gif
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post #1108 of 3105 Old 05-09-2013, 11:18 PM
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The MLL on ZT60 is already measure...was the same of European Model (Almost the same tv)...0.0033cd/m2 with D-Nice's Klein K10A and 0.0034cd/m2 with David Mackenzie's Klein K10A. You want a source...go HDTV Test forum
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post #1109 of 3105 Old 05-10-2013, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

I don't get it. This from HDGuru after CES.

"For 2013 Panasonic made great improvements in panel performance with its new Studio Master Panel, eliminating the air gap between the front glass and plasma panel, new 3000 focused field drive, a new phosphor and a new front louver filter. The result is a far brighter picture than any previous plasma coupled with the deepest black levels ever. At the press conference, journalists around me wondered if the panel was a plasma or LED LCD, because of its intense brightness."

Yet the reviews for the VT60 and ZT60 don't seem to support the brightness claims.

Maybe what they say based on their observed on Vivid mode or May be due to the awesome ZT louver filter effect.
From HDTVtest:
Quote:
In any case, the performance it wonderful: daytime blacks on the ZT65 are like looking at glossy black velvet.
What we can do though, is provide a scientific comparison of the Panasonic ZT65′s “Ultimate Black” filter’s bright-room black level performance versus the “Infinite Black Pro” filter on the TX-P50ST50 we have here. In fact, we measured the latent light present in both televisions with the room lighting on with both panels turned off (both naturally beside each other), to measure only the performance of the filters. In both cases, we held the Klein K-10 colorimeter roughly half a metre from the screen surface. In this test, the ZT’s filter kept blacks as viewed in a bright room at just 0.05 cd/m2, whereas the ST50 – which manages an extremely deep 0.009 cd/m2 in a dark room – lit up to 0.35 cd/m2 in the presence of light. The bottom line is that the TX-P60ZT65B’s contrast performance is utterly spectacular, regardless of the viewing conditions.
I've seen that was 0.17 cd/m^2 on F8500 in bright room but for unknown reasons they removed the number from their review . I'm not sure, may be seen that number on other review.
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post #1110 of 3105 Old 05-10-2013, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesslan1 View Post

If the 8500 had the same great input lag as Panny it would be a great contender but now since I also like to play games I can't see it as a good alternative frown.gif

I thought many were complaining about lag in the Pannys? Maybe I missed something.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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