F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Your theory might hold some weight if the 2012 shootout (multiple parties, lots of payoffs involved) didn't find the Panasonic also with the best all-around PQ.

Additionally, David Katzmaier, Cnet reviewer, calibrator, and videophile enthusiast, has a pretty reliable track record.

And you can't discount the calibrators here or on HDJ that penned reviews. I really don't get the either or mentality, I have owned both Samsungs and Pannys and both are excellent. I lean towards Panny because of build quality but you can't go wrong with either set really. Bottom line buy what you like and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

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post #92 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Concerning the difference in shadow detail, how much of a difference is there? Is there a way to quantify this in terms of real world PQ, like maybe X scene will look better in Y movie? Or is it too subtle to notice unless the two sets are side by side? I'm also wondering if calibration might bring the shadow detail performance closer together. Thanks!

Yes, you may be right about calibration and bringing the shadow detail closer between these two displays.

Look at it this way, I suspect the shadow detail on the F8500 is comparable to the Kuro and I've never heard anyone complaining about a lack of shadow detail on the Kuro. So even if the shadow detail on the Z60 is a bit better than the F8500 after calibration, is it really that big a deal?
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post #93 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Not convinced, at least not in the former case.

If that's the case, then you would have to put the VT50 in the 'fail' category as the F8500 already has a better MLL than the highly praised (for black levels) VT50.

For you Vinnie, I don't know why you're knocking yourself out, there's no way you're getting the F8500, no way. With an MLL that's probably going to be a bit better than the F8500 or VT60, you should only be considering the Z60.

Best MLL=ZT60=Vinnie

I wish my decision making process was so easy. wink.gif
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post #94 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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That, and I have an aversion to Samsung displays...when they cut corners and use capacitors they know to be of questionable quality and may only last a few years before bursting, let's just say I'm not their biggest fan (and I don't forget easily). A little more brightness is not a desirable trait over build quality.
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post #95 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

But the question is, have plasmas been showing real white according to the actual source? Some would say no because of ABL, but the F8500 is getting much closer to the source in that regard with its brighter whites regardless of fl.

I've actually witnessed this on my brothers Samsung F5300 compared to my Panasonic ST30. Even with similar light output in a darker room, the whites on the Samsung just come through better and noticeably more pleasing. Grant you, these are different displays than what is being discussed, but the general behavior from both manufacturers is no different with this year's higher end plasmas. The ZT still remains to be seen, but I expect it to be extremely similar to the VT60 except very slightly better MLL.

And that's a point I've made many times. When you look at a scene, for example, of a vast snowy expanse, there is no question, IMO, that the F8500 will depict that scene in a more believable fashion. But those seeking the lowest MLLs, seem to not be too concerned about it. For them it's 'good enough'. It always bothered me as a scene demanded a larger screen expanse of white, and the plasma couldn't handle it. To my eyes it was always obvious. When I got me Sharp Elite, I really felt for the first time, I was seeing scenes as they were meant to be seen whether very dark or very bright.

So I want a display that can do both, great MLLs and a very believable depiction of scenes with a high APL. Thus far, the F8500 does that betterIMO.

As for the shootout, I hope Robert shows scenes with both very high and very low APLs. This is the only way people will see a display's capabilities at both ends of the light spectrum.
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post #96 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That, and I have an aversion to Samsung displays...when they cut corners and use capacitors they know to be of questionable quality and may only last a few years before bursting, let's just say I'm not their biggest fan (and I don't forget easily). A little more brightness is not a desirable trait over build quality.

I'm in the same boat. I got a few buzzers with Sammy sets the last few years - I can only imagine the buzzing the sets would put out with increased brightness. Not saying that Panny's don't buzz as well, or that every F8500 will buzz, just that its not worth the risk to me given my history with the sets, and that Panny has beat out Samsung sets the last three years or so. I see nothing so far that indicates the trend will change.

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post #97 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Just like the Kuro, i'm sure you don't need to be in a "batcave" to enjoy the ZT60. I really hate that term. I watch my Kuro in the dark and during the day. But i don't have the sun BLASTING inside my room and no one should. An extremely bright environment is not an ideal way to watch TV. Plasma or LCD.

Seeing how the ZT60 is going to be brighter and handle daytime reflections better than my Kuro, the samsungs touted extra brightness is useless. The ZT60, if i was to ever get it in the future, should serve everything i need. I'm one that believes too much brightness is bad as it makes the picture look artificial.

So I guess you never go out on a bright, sunny day....too artificial looking. wink.gif
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post #98 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So I guess you never go out on a bright, sunny day....too artificial looking. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

And that's a point I've made many times. When you look at a scene, for example, of a vast snowy expanse, there is no question, IMO, that the F8500 will depict that scene in a more believable fashion. But those seeking the lowest MLLs, seem to not be too concerned about it. For them it's 'good enough'. It always bothered me as a scene demanded a larger screen expanse of white, and the plasma couldn't handle it. To my eyes it was always obvious. When I got me Sharp Elite, I really felt for the first time, I was seeing scenes as they were meant to be seen whether very dark or very bright.

So I want a display that can do both, great MLLs and a very believable depiction of scenes with a high APL. Thus far, the F8500 does that betterIMO.

As for the shootout, I hope Robert shows scenes with both very high and very low APLs. This is the only way people will see a display's capabilities at both ends of the light spectrum.
When I still had an LCD with noticeably hideous MURA (uneven backlight) and then moved on to a plasma, the last thing I noticed was a reduction in whites (the DSE actually stood out to me the most when it came to visible defects). You already know this, but quite a few of us aren't affected by the shortcomings of full-screen whites in plasma panels (until the second coming, the 8500) that you are constantly reminding us about.
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post #100 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Wall mounting is tough for a lot of people; for me it means the display would be several more feet back which is unacceptable. However, I can live with the F8500 stand although no question the VT60 stand looks much better.

Agreed. But in the end I tend to watch the picture and not the stand. The display, that for me has the better PQ, is the one I buy. With the lights out or dimmed, the display disappears. I'd never choose (or not choose) a display based on the stand. smile.gif
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post #101 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

When I got me Sharp Elite, I really felt for the first time, I was seeing scenes as they were meant to be seen whether very dark or very bright.

Funny, at last year's shootout, the Shap Elite came in fifth place for color accuracy and general video quality. Perhaps your view is a bit slighted compared to people who actually are considered "experts" when it comes to evaluating the sets. But again, if the Elite and F8500 look best to you, you should buy it.
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^The cyan color problem was the main culprit, and that didn't phase him much. Out of sight, out of mind, kind of like us ABL-deficient plasma fans. wink.gif
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post #103 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Did I say that? not a fan of either, I will be a fan of the TV that suits my needs.
All I say is don't depend on reviews solely be it for Panasonic or Samsung. Unless you trust others more than you trust your eyes smile.gif

The interesting thing about CNET reviews is how often they are diametrically opposed to the owner's reviews on the same page of the same product. I have owned a number of products reviewed by CNET that made me wonder if it was the same product I owned and they reviewed.

It amazes me how some people really seem to trust some reviews over their own eyes...or buy sight unseen based on a good review. This is by no means a knock of CNET, but as you say, you must use your own eyes in the end. Are you buying the display for yourself or for the guy that reviewed your display? wink.gif
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post #104 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Your theory might hold some weight if the 2012 shootout (multiple parties, lots of payoffs involved) didn't find the Panasonic also with the best all-around PQ.

Additionally, David Katzmaier, Cnet reviewer, calibrator, and videophile enthusiast, has a pretty reliable track record.

Voting was quite close, by no means a runaway. If there had not been the much discussed 'cyan error' of the Elite, results would probably have been different. smile.gif
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post #105 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

And you can't discount the calibrators here or on HDJ that penned reviews. I really don't get the either or mentality, I have owned both Samsungs and Pannys and both are excellent. I lean towards Panny because of build quality but you can't go wrong with either set really. Bottom line buy what you like and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

If you go by build quality, the F8500 should be high on your list. It's build quality has been specifically mentioned and praised in a number of reviews. This is not your grandpa's Samsung. wink.gif.
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post #106 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That, and I have an aversion to Samsung displays...when they cut corners and use capacitors they know to be of questionable quality and may only last a few years before bursting, let's just say I'm not their biggest fan (and I don't forget easily). A little more brightness is not a desirable trait over build quality.

OK so this really makes a case, the F8500 was never really in the runniing. For 1 it would have to beat the MLL and 2 it would ahve to get past your aversion of thier past....Seems to me it never had a chance wink.gif

That being said, I still dont get why everyone needs to make this an us vs them type deal. This year more than aver there are sets that everyone can enjoy. YOU may not get why someone needs or likes a certain set, but in the end you dont need too, as long as the owner of the set is happy who gives a flip if its number 1, 2, 3 ,4, or 5.....
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post #107 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That, and I have an aversion to Samsung displays...when they cut corners and use capacitors they know to be of questionable quality and may only last a few years before bursting, let's just say I'm not their biggest fan (and I don't forget easily). A little more brightness is not a desirable trait over build quality.

Oh c'mon Vinnie, that is not an issue these days and I think it's greatly embellished. If you use that logic, stay away from Panasonic with the rising black levels over time that were a problem a year or two ago. Owners were furious over that. Talk about a nightmare scenario for you!!

But as I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see you were never going to buy a Samsung.
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OK so this really makes a case, the F8500 was never really in the runniing. For 1 it would have to beat the MLL and 2 it would ahve to get past your aversion of thier past....Seems to me it never had a chance wink.gif

That being said, I still dont get why everyone needs to make this an us vs them type deal. This year more than aver there are sets that everyone can enjoy. YOU may not get why someone needs or likes a certain set, but in the end you dont need too, as long as the owner of the set is happy who gives a flip if its number 1, 2, 3 ,4, or 5.....

I'm not sure why you are posting that in this thread. This thread is to discuss what is best, the F8500 or ZT60, a question many people have before they make a purchase.

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post #109 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

I'm in the same boat. I got a few buzzers with Sammy sets the last few years - I can only imagine the buzzing the sets would put out with increased brightness. Not saying that Panny's don't buzz as well, or that every F8500 will buzz, just that its not worth the risk to me given my history with the sets, and that Panny has beat out Samsung sets the last three years or so. I see nothing so far that indicates the trend will change.

Yeah, this year's Samsung is just like all the prior years. No changes. Oh boy.
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post #110 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

When I still had an LCD with noticeably hideous MURA (uneven backlight) and then moved on to a plasma, the last thing I noticed was a reduction in whites (the DSE actually stood out to me the most when it came to visible defects). You already know this, but quite a few of us aren't affected by the shortcomings of full-screen whites in plasma panels (until the second coming, the 8500) that you are constantly reminding us about.

No Vinnie, some of us actually do get concerned about the rendering of high APL scenes too. I know you are 'constantly reminding us' wink.gif that life revolves around the lowest MLLs and nothing more. But it's funny, programming I watch has both low and high APL scenes, and his has nothing to do with the second coming or your very obvious disdain for Samsung. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yeah, this year's Samsung is just like all the prior years. No changes. Oh boy.

In terms of quality control, yes, I would guess that no significant changes were made. Can't ignore the past.
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post #112 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Funny, at last year's shootout, the Shap Elite came in fifth place for color accuracy and general video quality. Perhaps your view is a bit slighted compared to people who actually are considered "experts" when it comes to evaluating the sets. But again, if the Elite and F8500 look best to you, you should buy it.

Funny, but several professional reviews such as the one done by the highly respected Tom Norton, said the Elite was either the best TV ever produced or close to it. Funny.
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post #113 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^The cyan color problem was the main culprit, and that didn't phase him much. Out of sight, out of mind, kind of like us ABL-deficient plasma fans. wink.gif

Hmm, which might be more typically seen with a majority of programming, a cyan error in the lower luminance range or the impact of ABL? Hmm.
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post #114 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:37 PM
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Nice backpedal lol

That is not 'back peddling', that's simply a fact.
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I'm not sure why you are posting that in this thread. This thread is to discuss what is best, the F8500 or ZT60, a question many people have before they make a purchase.

Mabye becasue this wasnt started out to be that way, but rather a question of which was best for the OP, within the 1st page it was suggested that he wait as the ZT60 is not out. How can there be ANY discussion of which is best when one of the sets isn't even out yet?????

This once again has jsut spiraled out of control really....
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post #116 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:37 PM
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Agreed. But in the end I tend to watch the picture and not the stand. The display, that for me has the better PQ, is the one I buy. With the lights out or dimmed, the display disappears. I'd never choose (or not choose) a display based on the stand. smile.gif

Agreed. The screen could be sitting on a large turtle shell if it came down to it. smile.gif
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post #117 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:40 PM
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In terms of quality control, yes, I would guess that no significant changes were made. Can't ignore the past.

Then I guess we should say the same for Panasonic in which case stay away from those sets becasue of the Ir or rising blacks....Stay away form sont becasue of the Green Blobs, stay away from Sharp becasue of the Cyan push......Since there are NEVEr any changes made between years...C'mon now.......

Better yet eeryone throw out your TV there is no safe choice, its better to jsut argue and debate over minte things on the interent....
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Mabye becasue this wasnt started out to be that way, but rather a question of which was best for the OP, within the 1st page it was suggested that he wait as the ZT60 is not out. How can there be ANY discussion of which is best when one of the sets isn't even out yet?????

This once again has jsut spiraled out of control really....

The thread is titled F8500 v. ZT60. How dare people comment with their opinion on the matter.

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post #119 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:41 PM
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Then I guess we should say the same for Panasonic in which case stay away from those sets becasue of the Ir or rising blacks....Stay away form sont becasue of the Green Blobs, stay away from Sharp becasue of the Cyan push......Since there are NEVEr any changes made between years...C'mon now.......

Better yet eeryone throw out your TV there is no safe choice, its better to jsut argue and debate over minte things on the interent....

See my post before this. I rely on my own experience with the sets. My Panasonic has never had IR and has yet to have rising blacks. My Samsungs buzzed. Call me crazy for being skeptical.

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post #120 of 3105 Old 04-24-2013, 01:43 PM
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OK so this really makes a case, the F8500 was never really in the runniing. For 1 it would have to beat the MLL and 2 it would ahve to get past your aversion of thier past....Seems to me it never had a chance wink.gif

Correct. Having been on AVS as long as I have, you get a reliable sense of someone's true feeling within a few posts. Vinnie was never seriously considering the Samsung, but as is often the case, the poster often doesn't spell out what's really going in their mind until many posts later.

What I'll never understand is why some people will remain in the thread for the product they've ruled out (let alone never really took seriously), only to continue to take potshots at.
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