F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

I think there is another serious factor to consider when comparing the F8500 to the ZT60...

We all know ABL has long been accepted as an unavoidable issue with plasma panels. Well, I think we may all be minimizing how great the latest F8500 firmware update really is.

Unless I'm missing something, Samsung may have figured out how to totally eliminate the ABL issue. It's been a while now and I have not seen even the slightest hint of it.

Could it be true...no more ABL..at all???

It sure looks that way biggrin.gif

ps) I watched a youtube video with the ZT60 next to a VT60 and a Kuro. It was hard to make out the picture quality differences, but I sure noticed some serious ABL going on with the ZT60. It's another thing that will be interesting to look for at the shootout. It will definitely be a factor in my decision...for sure!

Saw that video too. The ZT60 had the best black levels, but I noticed the peak luminance went but so far.,

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post #1172 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Ken Ross: maybe you've already stated it somewhere before but please answer me this because you might be the only one on planet Earth that many might consider to be objective.

f8500 versus Sharp Elite--what's better--plasma or LCD?

I want to hear an answer from you--if you give one the universe may blow up!


The other reason I want to hear an answer is the f8500 and the Sharp Elite and the ZT60 may be as great as it ever gets for 1080p.

The one that is the best is what future 4K displays should be compared to--since increased resolution may be hard to see--if future 4K displays can't beat out the state of the art when it comes to 1080p--then what is the point?

If 4K LCD and OLED CAN beat out the 1080p greatest then that's when I would say BUY THEM!

There's no easy answer Art, and it's not a cop out. The F8500 has better viewing angles, no question. Although my Elite has very good screen uniformity, from the F8500s I've seen, the 8500 is better. I'd also give the nod to the 8500 for absolutely no haloing. The Elite may display a very minor amount of haloing off-angle. Do I notice it? No, I always sit on-axis. I'd also suspect that the F8500 has better measured color accuracy. Will I see this? Probably not, but nonetheless, it's probably there and I'll make sure I tune to the Today Show and enjoy their cyan glass blocks. I should note here that I've never subscribed to the 'more saturated colors' of plasma vs an LED. If you have a good, calibrated LED and are viewing on-axis, I see virtually no difference in color saturation. Robert had an F8000 right next to a Sammy plasma and it was almost impossible to see any difference in color saturation. In fact in some scenes the LED looked a bit more saturated at times and at other times a bit more on the plasma. Most of the time there was simply no difference.

With that said, there is absolutely no ABL on the Elite. Therein lies one of the major hallmarks for me with the F8500, the best controlled ABL of any plasma. Many don't think it's important, I think it's very important. The Elite also has better black levels. How much of that will I see if & when I get it? That remains to be seen, but I suspect it will be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

So you see Art, there really is no easy answer to the question. If I did give you one it would be a disservice to your question. smile.gif

Well, I'm still here, the universe didn't blow up, so I guess I didn't answer the question. biggrin.gif
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post #1173 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I am anxiously awaiting black level measurements after the application of the new F8500 firmware. wink.gif

I doubt it will change. Perhaps the ANSI # will, but I doubt the MLL will.
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post #1174 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:16 AM
 
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Just going by what one of the owners has reported. Hopefully, a competent one!
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post #1175 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

oh I should mention though, when you have sets with really bad input lag, you'll likely have an impact with lipsynching in your hometheater setup, so don't forget to tweak the delay in your AVR to get it to line up right after you get yours Ken - very annoying when you start getting that dubbed effect if you have eyes sensitive to it.

Yup. I've had to do that with almost every display I've owned.

I've only had to do it on the es8000 and it was between 120-140ms delay. I remember one person had an older AVR which didn't have a 'delay' feature since they didn't make them for CRT's and such back in the day....boy was he upset!!
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post #1176 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Unless I'm missing something, Samsung may have figured out how to totally eliminate the ABL issue. It's been a while now and I have not seen even the slightest hint of it.

Could it be true...no more ABL..at all???

Its true! The F8000 will be at the shootout and it has zero ABL and brighter whites and deeper blacks than the F8500. In that category, a real winner smile.gif
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post #1177 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:45 AM
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If the F8000 came in a reasonably priced 70" version, I would be jumping on it as the upcoming 75" is waaayyyy out of my budget. But the F8000 sounds nice. I would really like a 70", but don't want to sacrifice too much money and quality, so 64-65" it will be as I don't think plasmas will be getting any bigger at its twilight stage. Is the consensus the F8500 is better than the F8000? Putting aside LED vs plasma strengths and weaknesses.

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post #1178 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

It was hard to make out the picture quality differences

dude you were watching on youtube rolleyes.gif
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post #1179 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

If the F8000 came in a reasonably priced 70" version, I would be jumping on it as the upcoming 75" is waaayyyy out of my budget. But the F8000 sounds nice. I would really like a 70", but don't want to sacrifice too much money and quality, so 64-65" it will be as I don't think plasmas will be getting any bigger at its twilight stage. Is the consensus the F8500 is better than the F8000? Putting aside LED vs plasma strengths and weaknesses.

normally you can automatically say that motion handling and input lag are better in the plasma version of a manufacturers line, but this year the f8500 seems to be a bit of a game changer and the differences between it and the f8000 might not be as clear cut. Does the shootout compare motion handling?

and, yes, if you want a 75" its always hard to find the funds and the furniture even! I'd rather buid a 120" projector setup.
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post #1180 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:56 AM
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Yes they do. One feature the F8000 has is the ability to completely blacken the letterbox bars as I believe the pixels just turn off in those areas. Sounds like a very cool feature. Another set to keep an eye on at the Shootout. smile.gif

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post #1181 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:58 AM
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That's good to hear.
I've seen it (cinema black), and it is my favorite feature in a TV. Can't stand illuminated letterbox bars. I really wish my VT50 had the same feature.
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post #1182 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I've seen it, and it is my favorite feature in a TV. Can't stand illuminated letterbox bars. I really wish my VT50 had the same feature.

Yes, so annoying! Every since leaving CRT RPTV that has been my biggest complaint.

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post #1183 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 12:06 PM
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The D8000 had it, then they took it out of the es8000 (which really hurt), then they put it back into the f8000 and the F8000 does it even better than than the d8000 did. I love my plasma, but I sure wish I could just flip a switch on those bars sometimes - its even worse in 3D because in 3D these plasmas' blacks turn really gray. One of the reason's I've gotten attuned to looking for the ANSI MLL black levels in these sets is from just these experiences. Apologize if I come acreoss ocd when looking at the numbers in the past : /
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post #1184 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 12:39 PM
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I forget the order last year for the Shootout. I remember Dr. Weber speaking Saturday. And the vote is saturday as well. But what is the order of things? When are numbers released from the calibrations, fri or sat?

Basically what happens today , and what happens on sat?

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post #1185 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 04:32 PM
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F8500 taking second but I am not sure about first. ZT 60 could be the 9G killer but not the 9.5G, interms of black levels.
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post #1186 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 05:35 PM
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Wrong post in thread.

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post #1187 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:26 PM
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I really don't understand Panasonic's strategy with the ZT60, sounds like they hit it out of the park with the VT, with the blacks and color accuracy identical what is there to make the ZT standout ? A new bonding process that doesn't deliver discernible real world results. Hard to justify the price jump imo unless you just have money to burn.

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post #1188 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I really don't understand Panasonic's strategy with the ZT60, sounds like they hit it out of the park with the VT, with the blacks and color accuracy identical what is there to make the ZT standout ? A new bonding process that doesn't deliver discernible real world results. Hard to justify the price jump imo unless you just have money to burn.

I used to buy fireworks back in the day and I remember being let down by some very large, very expensive ones which were still nice, but no where near expected or hyped up. This seems to be the case with the ZT.

Agreed, the VT60 seems really nice. I am still split between it and the F8500. I am curious to get more feedback on what appears to be slight color differences between the two. It seems the Panasonics might have a bit more saturation, but not 100%.

As far as blacks, if I recall, Kevin Miller had previously gotten .0016 to .0017 on the F8500 which has got to be visually the same as .0013 on the VT/ZT. I would like to know if the ansi CR improved on the F8500 as floating blacks are said to be gone now with the update.

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post #1189 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I really don't understand Panasonic's strategy with the ZT60, sounds like they hit it out of the park with the VT, with the blacks and color accuracy identical what is there to make the ZT standout ? A new bonding process that doesn't deliver discernible real world results. Hard to justify the price jump imo unless you just have money to burn.

Really its a matter of the filter IMO...The filter is better on the ZT but the brightness is more on the VT. So does one cancel out the other? I am sure we'll get more detail tomorow (at least I hope so)..It seems that the EU models have a bigger difference than the NA\US models do for some reason....
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post #1190 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post



I used to buy fireworks back in the day and I remember being let down by some very large, very expensive ones which were still nice, but no where near expected or hyped up. This seems to be the case with the ZT.

Agreed, the VT60 seems really nice. I am still split between it and the F8500. I am curious to get more feedback on what appears to be slight color differences between the two.

I don't think you can go wrong with either honestly, the VT60 will be no more dim than your ST30 and then add to the mix super accurate color perfect gamma and greyscale and a AR filter that is much much improved over the ST30. Either way you are golden imo

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post #1191 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:39 PM
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Really its a matter of the filter IMO...The filter is better on the ZT but the brightness is more on the VT. So does one cancel out the other? I am sure we'll get more detail tomorow (at least I hope so)..It seems that the EU models have a bigger difference than the NA\US models do for some reason....

Yes we will see but I think the VT is the right mix of a very effective filter but greater light output, if the VT60 is even a 10 to 20 % improvement on the VT50 you are talking one of the greatest plasmas ever because the 50 is a great set in its own right.
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post #1192 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 08:49 PM
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Yes we will see but I think the VT is the right mix of a very effective filter but greater light output, if the VT60 is even a 10 to 20 % improvement on the VT50 you are talking one of the greatest plasmas ever because the 50 is a great set in its own right.

There was a noticeable difference for the reflections between the Vt and ZT from the camera feed IMO....If there wasnt, I wouldnt put it so high...I think really it will come down to the F8500 and the Vt60 for most people (at least after day one's result).....Hold tight for day 2 as things could get turned on thier head, but for the low MLL hunters, the steam was taken out early when they said both the VT and ZT matched...
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post #1193 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 10:03 PM
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So ZT has a better filter less brightness, VT has more brightness.

How about having a good filter and more brightness than both? F8500 is the answer smile.gif

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So ZT has a better filter less brightness, VT has more brightness.

How about having a good filter and more brightness than both? F8500 is the answer smile.gif

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think im gonna pull the trigger on the VT60. 40ms vs the 8500s 60ms of input lag
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post #1196 of 3156 Old 05-10-2013, 11:11 PM
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post #1197 of 3156 Old 05-11-2013, 09:38 AM
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Any news from the shootout?
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post #1198 of 3156 Old 05-11-2013, 09:43 AM
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Any news from the shootout?

News is getting posted in a few different threads, you can watch a partial video form last night and the stream today:
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout

take a look at the "Which display wins" or Real time shootout Results\reactions threads they have most of the relevant data form day 1...most of the data wont come until tonight however
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Well, it seems the ZT was just a bubble that got burst last night

Surprises was that VT and ZT had identical black levels.
ZT has a better filter but this causes reduced brightness compared to VT

People who care about MLL are hugely disappointed.

F8500 is way brighter then both of them and has a good filter.
F8500 in terms of black levels is not too different from VT and ZT
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post #1200 of 3156 Old 05-11-2013, 09:47 AM
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Look's like the F8500 is the one for me biggrin.gif
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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