F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tvxs View Post

I think that the issue of "lag" affects more than just gaming. I saw the VT60 and the F8500 next to each other running the same video from the same source. Whenever there was the slightest motion on the screen, I noticed that the F8500 showed blocky artifacts. I looked at the VT60, and the same image was smooth. The F8500 behaved more like an LED TV in this respect.

The F8500 was only slightly brighter than the VT60, but the blocky artifacts were really noticeable. I also compared the whites between the two sets. Honestly, I couldn't tell much of a difference. In some scenes the VT60 looked better. In others, the F8500 looked better. I do have to say that the colors overall on the VT60 were much richer. The F8500 actually gave me a bit of eye fatigue, where the VT60 was easy on the eyes.

I went in to the store intending to buy the F8500. The price was even equivalent to the VT60. I left the store with the VT60. The slight brightness advantage of the F8500 was not worth the trade-off of dealing with the blockiness.

If you saw 'blocky artifacts' then something was wrong in the setup or the display itself. There are no 'blocky artifacts' on the 8500 nor would this have anything to do with lag. Also, if all you saw was a 'slightly brighter' image on the F8500, then that was clearly how it was adjusted, It is capable of much brighter output than the Panasonic.

You like the Panasonic, that's clear and that's great. Can't go wrong with either panel.
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post #1352 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by coresare View Post

Took home a zt 60". It's not very sharp frown.gif even with sharpness at 50

I found the same thing with the VT. For whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to satisfy me in terms of sharpness. I tried playing with the sharpness control multiple times, but it never gave me the detail the 8500 did.
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post #1353 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

That sucks.. My F8500 has none what so ever.. I'd be bummed as I'm sure you are.. I'd try for #4 lol, the picture quality is that good smile.gif

Yeah, I have no buzzing on mine either. My Kuro definitely buzzed, but it wasn't enough to really bother me. What surprises me is that with a panel as bright as the 8500, you'd think they'd all buzz. There are so many variables to this buzzing thing, that you never know which one of those variables is responsible (individual hearing, ambient noise, sound-deadening material in the viewing room, how and where it's mounted, altitude...on and on) for whatever buzzing you hear.
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post #1354 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The F8500 has the added sharpness but buzzes like a hornet's nest.

It does? And you know this how? Here we go again. Both Pinger and I just related that ours has no buzzing at all.
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post #1355 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:45 AM
 
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Hey, Ken, I was referring to his INDIVIDUAL panel, which he had switched out three times. How many more do you suggest he try to get past his perception of the problem, 10?
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post #1356 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvxs View Post

I think that the issue of "lag" affects more than just gaming. I saw the VT60 and the F8500 next to each other running the same video from the same source. Whenever there was the slightest motion on the screen, I noticed that the F8500 showed blocky artifacts. I looked at the VT60, and the same image was smooth. The F8500 behaved more like an LED TV in this respect.

The F8500 was only slightly brighter than the VT60, but the blocky artifacts were really noticeable. I also compared the whites between the two sets. Honestly, I couldn't tell much of a difference. In some scenes the VT60 looked better. In others, the F8500 looked better. I do have to say that the colors overall on the VT60 were much richer. The F8500 actually gave me a bit of eye fatigue, where the VT60 was easy on the eyes.

I went in to the store intending to buy the F8500. The price was even equivalent to the VT60. I left the store with the VT60. The slight brightness advantage of the F8500 was not worth the trade-off of dealing with the blockiness.

If you saw 'blocky artifacts' then something was wrong in the setup or the display itself. There are no 'blocky artifacts' on the 8500 nor would this have anything to do with lag. Also, if all you saw was a 'slightly brighter' image on the F8500, then that was clearly how it was adjusted, It is capable of much brighter output than the Panasonic.

You like the Panasonic, that's clear and that's great. Can't go wrong with either panel.

Sounds like the source to me.

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post #1357 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Hey, Ken. I was referring to his INDIVIDUAL panel, which he had switched out three times. How many more do you suggest he try to get past his perception of the problem, 10?

Since his ZT now also buzzes, I guess none Vinnie. wink.gif
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post #1358 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I found the same thing with the VT. For whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to satisfy me in terms of sharpness. I tried playing with the sharpness control multiple times, but it never gave me the detail the 8500 did.

I think that is just Panasonic in general it has an overall more subdued look to it. For what I would call it I would say natural but that is subjective to the person of course. With every panasonic I have owned depending on the source cable more so then anything sometimes it just has that duller look. Though when I feed it bluray and HD content it's crisp and just looks natural.

In your opinion from what you have seen so far do you think the 8500 is doing some type of edge enhancement processing or anything?

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post #1359 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

Sounds like the source to me.

Yeah, there's no way you get those blocky artifacts on a properly adjusted 8500. There were none present in the shootout and none present in any review I've ever seen.
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post #1360 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

I think that is just Panasonic in general it has an overall more subdued look to it. For what I would call it I would say natural but that is subjective to the person of course. With every panasonic I have owned depending on the source cable more so then anything sometimes it just has that duller look. Though when I feed it bluray and HD content it's crisp and just looks natural.

In your opinion from what you have seen so far do you think the 8500 is doing some type of edge enhancement processing or anything?

Yes, I agree, the Pannys do have a more 'subdued look' to them. As for edge enhancement on the 8500, no, no edge enhancement at all and that's been proven with test patterns. The Samsung simply does a phenomenal job in processing the signal while adding no artifacts. When I was at Robert's store, Robert, D-Nice and I watched TDK in both motion and frame by frame. We all agreed there was more detail in the 8500 and it was not the result of edge enhancement. Whatever they're doing, they're doing right IMO. smile.gif
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post #1361 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Since his ZT now also buzzes, I guess none Vinnie. wink.gif
The zt buzzing is only noticeable with predominantly white scenes, but if you don't turn your head to listen for it (pointing an ear towards tv), I don't hear it. On my samsungs, even if I don't try to listen for it, I'll hear it.
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post #1362 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, I agree, the Pannys do have a more 'subdued look' to them. As for edge enhancement on the 8500, no, no edge enhancement at all and that's been proven with test patterns. The Samsung simply does a phenomenal job in processing the signal while adding no artifacts. When I was at Robert's store, Robert, D-Nice and I watched TDK in both motion and frame by frame. We all agreed there was more detail in the 8500 and it was not the result of edge enhancement. Whatever they're doing, they're doing right IMO. smile.gif

That's interesting. Would you mind telling me which scene you guys watched. Generally I never looked much at sharpness as I always set everything thing up off test patterns when I calibrate. Will definitely have to look into this for my next set of if I decide to pick up a 51F8500 for the office.

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post #1363 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 09:09 AM
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Sammie, pretty much any scene with detail. Where we did a frame by frame advance was an overhead night shot of the city. We could see detail in the windows on the 8500 that simply weren't present on the Panasonic. I should note this was a VT50 we compared it to, but I don't think I've heard there's any difference in sharpness between the VT50/VT60 & ZT60.
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post #1364 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 09:28 AM
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60 ZT60 EU France :





The settings are out of the box ... cool.gif

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post #1365 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Sammie, pretty much any scene with detail. Where we did a frame by frame advance was an overhead night shot of the city. We could see detail in the windows on the 8500 that simply weren't present on the Panasonic. I should note this was a VT50 we compared it to, but I don't think I've heard there's any difference in sharpness between the VT50/VT60 & ZT60.

Nice, thanks for the info. Will definitely have to look at this when it's all set up.

Since you were out the shootout you no doubt saw the stadium pan scene that I think David did. If the samsung picked up details in that and kept the resolution and didn't introduce any artifacts during that pan, that is indeed impressive on Samsungs part.

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post #1367 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lotusvibe View Post

I want to sell my 65zt60 it is too big. Is there a forum where I'm allowed to sell it?

Please tell me you're joking? You will get use to it and it will shrink. Keep that size.

How big is the room and how far are you sitting from it?

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post #1368 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 07:32 PM
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Here at the AVS forum, we generally frown upon any outright preference for smaller size, motion interpolation, or integrated panel speakers, for ANY reason.Do NOT trade that 65" in. Keep it, and post how you wish they made an 80" instead. jmo.

mad.gif



edit- btw thankfully Ken Ross put his rubber boots on and got back up in this one after swearing he was done- it's just the LIES and STONE THROWING in this thread were getting out of control.
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post #1369 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by coresare View Post

I wonder if you have to be further away. The buzz emits straight out from the center of the panel. Maybe stand 6 feet away and also turn one of your ears to point at the TV.

I had a whole night with the ZT. The ZT buzzes also. This one gets louder if the entire scene is white. Not sure the 8500 did that, but the buzzing isn't as loud and obnoxious. Also when playing scenes that aren't all white it's barely noticeable. The 8500 was constantly loud no matter what.

my 8500 definitely changes with scenes. bright scene, more buzz. dark scene it's almost completely silent.

ALL TV's will buzz to some extent, it's a matter of electricity. electricity buzzes. since the plasmas use more energy than lcds, they buzz louder.

i'm still kind of amazed how much of a problem this is for some ppl. I really don't think there's that much variation between sets, I've listened to a lot of plasmas and they all seem the same to me. it's the difference between ppl. maybe i'm just used to a little background noise, but the buzzing is hardly the loudest thing in my theatre room. and it's not like i'm not trying, my HTPC is in an adjacent room because the fans are annoying.

anyway, I wouldn't waste your time trying multiple sets. I don't recall hearing about anybody that returned their tv and had an improvement(except for maybe one or two defective ones that i'm guessing were way loud) so if you tried 3 already, i'm sure you've experienced the best you'll get.

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post #1370 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:09 PM
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Do any of you F8500 owners set your black optimizer to off? I know Kevin Miller had said in his review that when the black optimizer is set to off the TV has a significantly lighter black level (.004). Is there any reason to turn this function off??? I'm still on the fence with which panel to buy but I don't want to have to lose black level
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post #1371 of 3105 Old 05-25-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bzal1122 View Post

Do any of you F8500 owners set your black optimizer to off? I know Kevin Miller had said in his review that when the black optimizer is set to off the TV has a significantly lighter black level (.004). Is there any reason to turn this function off??? I'm still on the fence with which panel to buy but I don't want to have to lose black level

I honestly can't tell the difference. only reason I checked was because in "PC" mode it's not an option. and with the input lag, I feel i'll probably need to play some games in PC mode. wanted to make sure that wasn't going to be a real concern before my exchange period was up.

on the plus side, I figure the fact I can't tell the difference between it being on and off means I probably couldn't tell the difference between panny's blacks and samsungs blacks either, haha. numbers can be misleading out of context sometimes. I'm still not entirely sure what to make of it.

for now, i'm leaving it set to dark room, because I heard on the internet that was best tongue.gif

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post #1372 of 3105 Old 05-26-2013, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

edit- btw thankfully Ken Ross put his rubber boots on and got back up in this one after swearing he was done- it's just the LIES and STONE THROWING in this thread were getting out of control.

And Leon, it took me days to clean off those boots. The stench was so bad, my wife made me park them outside the house. wink.gif
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post #1373 of 3105 Old 05-26-2013, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

And Leon, it took me days to clean off those boots. The stench was so bad, my wife made me park them outside the house. wink.gif
And of course the best way to keep those boots clean is not to keep that stench in the forefront of everyones mind. Slinging poo tends to be contagious. And one shouldnt complain if he is taking part in the activity. wink.gif
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post #1374 of 3105 Old 05-26-2013, 05:36 AM
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This thread has deteriorated so badly now.
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This thread has deteriorated so badly now.
Nah...be optimistic and keep on subject. smile.gif

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post #1376 of 3105 Old 05-26-2013, 07:06 AM
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According to what Iv'e read the ambient light is better on the Samsung 8500 but everything else goes to the VT-60 or ZT-60,for me my house stays dark in the inside anyway,the ZT-60 is my choice
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post #1377 of 3105 Old 05-26-2013, 07:32 AM
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According to what Iv'e read the ambient light is better on the Samsung 8500 but everything else goes to the VT-60 or ZT-60,for me my house stays dark in the inside anyway,the ZT-60 is my choice
You are right ...
It is in a dark piece that draws on best preformances an image Cinema ...
I'm like you, I never look at my daytime screens ... cool.gif

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post #1378 of 3105 Old 05-27-2013, 12:11 PM
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I've spent the entire weekend with the F8500 and VT60 in my living room.

I will say, having spent more time with the F8500 (as I have not ignored it since getting the VT60), it is a great display. The screen uniformity is actually better than my VT60.

As far as blacks, in dark room, they are very good on F8500, but they are not quite as stable or robust. I played a lot of scenes from Castaway, Sin City, Dark Knight Rises, Star Wars (A New Hope), and more Star Trek The Original Series. Both units fed the same feed from an Oppo 103.

It's really kind of weird sometimes. On a lot of material that is really dark, the two displays are so close they are basically identical.

Then there are scenes where brightness enters the image and the VT60 is decisively better evidenced by the letterbox where they are darker on the VT60 and lighter on the F8500. In some of the 4:3 Star Trek materials, it's as the brightness bleeds into the bars where as they are rock solid dark on the VT60. The image will also appear with a bit more contrast in these scenes too, so I do think the better ansi contrast is coming into play here with the VT60. Still, the other scenes they can be very close. If Samsung could issue another firmware to fix the floating blacks (or whatever it is), it would be very interesting.

The ABL effect is real and whites do appear more pure, more bright on certain content (although I don't see the issue arise as much compared to the difference in blacks at times.) There were even a couple of scenes on tattooine with Star Wars this was evident, but also in Castaway where it was more evident on the bright bluish skies and one scene with clouds. Clouds at times could look a little dingy on the VT60 by comparison. Blue skies looked a bit more brighter and pure. Most scenes looked identical though between the two in this regard.

Color is more difficult to comment on given you really need a meter, but I left it at default for Movie mode on the F8500 and THX Cinema on default for the VT60. Seems best for the non-professional. With that said, colors are a bit more saturated with THX mode on the VT60, but again I don't base a ton on that without a pro cal.

Any way, both are great displays to be sure.

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post #1379 of 3105 Old 05-27-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I've spent the entire weekend with the F8500 and VT60 in my living room.

What about sharpness between the two? Also, if you don't mind, what size screens and at what viewing distance? And thanks for that review.
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post #1380 of 3105 Old 05-27-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I've spent the entire weekend with the F8500 and VT60 in my living room.

I will say, having spent more time with the F8500 (as I have not ignored it since getting the VT60), it is a great display. The screen uniformity is actually better than my VT60.

As far as blacks, in dark room, they are very good on F8500, but they are not quite as stable or robust. I played a lot of scenes from Castaway, Sin City, Dark Knight Rises, Star Wars (A New Hope), and more Star Trek The Original Series. Both units fed the same feed from an Oppo 103.

It's really kind of weird sometimes. On a lot of material that is really dark, the two displays are so close they are basically identical.

Then there are scenes where brightness enters the image and the VT60 is decisively better evidenced by the letterbox where they are darker on the VT60 and lighter on the F8500. In some of the 4:3 Star Trek materials, it's as the brightness bleeds into the bars where as they are rock solid dark on the VT60. The image will also appear with a bit more contrast in these scenes too, so I do think the better ansi contrast is coming into play here with the VT60. Still, the other scenes they can be very close. If Samsung could issue another firmware to fix the floating blacks (or whatever it is), it would be very interesting.

The ABL effect is real and whites do appear more pure, more bright on certain content (although I don't see the issue arise as much compared to the difference in blacks at times.) There were even a couple of scenes on tattooine with Star Wars this was evident, but also in Castaway where it was more evident on the bright bluish skies and one scene with clouds. Clouds at times could look a little dingy on the VT60 by comparison. Blue skies looked a bit more brighter and pure. Most scenes looked identical though between the two in this regard.

Color is more difficult to comment on given you really need a meter, but I left it at default for Movie mode on the F8500 and THX Cinema on default for the VT60. Seems best for the non-professional. With that said, colors are a bit more saturated with THX mode on the VT60, but again I don't base a ton on that without a pro cal.

Any way, both are great displays to be sure.


Thanks for the comments. The 8500 is a damn fine display and in all honesty I still want one but want my ZT more. Will look into Samsung still as the 8500 is still on my list.

As for the whites on the VT would you say if you didn't have an 8500 right next to it would it still look the way they did like in your castaway example?

Also with perceived contrast you give the nod to the VT?

LivingRoom: XBR-65X900B / Oppo BDP103D / Yamaha RX-A2040 / REL T7 / HDP2500 / Def Tech Mythos Ones x 4, Eight, 2x Gem XL / PS4 / Xbox One / Wii U
Bedroom: 65ZT60 / Oppo BDP93 / Apple TV / PS3
Office: KRP-500M / Xbox 360
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