F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 55 - AVS Forum
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post #1621 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 01:12 PM
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I had F8500, 64" over 6 weeks now. It is wall mounted and has two windows on each side. There is a 8' sliding glass to my right. The picture quality is simply the best I have ever seen. Be it during the day or night. Though I am a beginner when it comes to judging the quality, I loved the black levels.. However I noticed since day1, the motion of the objects is not smooth.. say a person is moving horizontally.. the movement is as i fast forwarded for a second.. I thought may be the firmware update might fix it but it did not. I noticed this with all the three input sources: Cable [Fios], Bluray disk [Oppo 103], flash drive on Popcorn Hour C200. Now I couldnt live with this crap and just returned it in exchange for ZT60. I will get the new on next tuesday. I know it will live up to my expectations in the dark but I hope it does what samsung did during day. fingers crossed.. I feel sad that after spending 3500, I still did not get the product I dreamed about..
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post #1622 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters_ View Post

I had F8500, 64" over 6 weeks now. It is wall mounted and has two windows on each side. There is a 8' sliding glass to my right. The picture quality is simply the best I have ever seen. Be it during the day or night. Though I am a beginner when it comes to judging the quality, I loved the black levels.. However I noticed since day1, the motion of the objects is not smooth.. say a person is moving horizontally.. the movement is as i fast forwarded for a second.. I thought may be the firmware update might fix it but it did not. I noticed this with all the three input sources: Cable [Fios], Bluray disk [Oppo 103], flash drive on Popcorn Hour C200. Now I couldnt live with this crap and just returned it in exchange for ZT60. I will get the new on next tuesday. I know it will live up to my expectations in the dark but I hope it does what samsung did during day. fingers crossed.. I feel sad that after spending 3500, I still did not get the product I dreamed about..

Did you have your F8500 set professionally calibrated?
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post #1623 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Supermans View Post

Did you have your F8500 set professionally calibrated?
I was asked to wait for ~100hrs of tv usage. So didnt get a chance to calibrate it. I had an appointment but cancelled it.
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post #1624 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 07:52 PM
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You should have plugged in some user posted settings on here. I know Pie keeps his updated regularly with setting revisions. Either way you cannot go wrong ZT or 8500.
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post #1625 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sahmen View Post

Finally, a very sound, and balanced view of things! I learn a lot from all these forums, but I wish all the postings were this level-headed, and less shrill and head-ache inducing.

+1

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post #1626 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

You should have plugged in some user posted settings on here. I know Pie keeps his updated regularly with setting revisions. Either way you cannot go wrong ZT or 8500.
I agree, you can't go wrong with either. No set is perfect, however we all are arguing over minutia in my honest opinion. Just sit back and enjoy the movies on these grand sets, flaws and all.
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post #1627 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 11:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen View Post

Finally, a very sound, and balanced view of things! I learn a lot from all these forums, but I wish all the postings were this level-headed, and less shrill and head-ache inducing.
I was trying hard to be balanced, but I apparently failed here (merely a few posts above yours):
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

OK, the full HD driving method is one area where the F8500 is superior for 3D, but the F8500 also has a weakness in that its driving method causes inaccurate grayscale tracking. Of course, without a full-on calibration, both will suffer, but it does provide one 3D edge for the ZT60 (if we're honest about being objective).
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post #1628 of 3105 Old 06-29-2013, 11:37 PM
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The very few time I get to watch a tv in the daytime is in the kitchen/ nook. If I can ever afford the premium I guess an LCD or f8500 would be my best bets.
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post #1629 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post

With the latest firmware, the floating blacks people have been seeing have all been eliminated when properly calibrated after 200 viewing hours according to Value Electronics calibrators.

2D brightness pops yes, floating blacks - no. See here
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post #1630 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters_ View Post

I had F8500, 64" over 6 weeks now. It is wall mounted and has two windows on each side. There is a 8' sliding glass to my right. The picture quality is simply the best I have ever seen. Be it during the day or night. Though I am a beginner when it comes to judging the quality, I loved the black levels.. However I noticed since day1, the motion of the objects is not smooth.. say a person is moving horizontally.. the movement is as i fast forwarded for a second.. I thought may be the firmware update might fix it but it did not. I noticed this with all the three input sources: Cable [Fios], Bluray disk [Oppo 103], flash drive on Popcorn Hour C200. Now I couldnt live with this crap and just returned it in exchange for ZT60. I will get the new on next tuesday. I know it will live up to my expectations in the dark but I hope it does what samsung did during day. fingers crossed.. I feel sad that after spending 3500, I still did not get the product I dreamed about..

Sounds like you didn't have the proper motion settings dialed in.
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post #1631 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

I understand and appreciate what the F8500 has accomplished in terms of light output for a plasma tv. However, I own and love my 2 Samsung plasma (B860 & D8000), and now a VT60, and I've NEVER felt that any of these sets were too 'dim' in my house for normal daytime viewing. My living room and rec room are what I consider 'typical' in terms of ambient light from windows and ceiling lights, and all 3 plasma that I own provide a great, 'contrasty' picture during the day. I spend plenty of time watching football and golf on the weekends, and I've never sat there and wished my picture was brighter. I love plasmas for the natural, 'life-like' image they provide.
I guess I don't understand some of these post from F8500 fans that make it sound like the VT/ZT are unwatchable during the day. To me, they get plenty bright enough for real world use. And of course are terrific for movie nights as well. Personally, I bought the VT because it was less expensive at the time than F8500, otherwise I probably would've bought the F8500. They are all awesome sets!

It's not just brightness. In fact I'd put the absolute brightness between these displays much lower than the differences in ABL behavior between the two sets. The less aggressive ABL on the 8500 is, IMO, a clear differentiator between these displays.
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post #1632 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

And honestly, I've heard at least a few complaints about the F8500 floating black issue that interrupts people's viewing experience in dark environments, which I simply couldn't tolerate. If you don't see it, all's the better, but dark room cinematic viewing is my #1 priority.

It's not a question of 'not seeing it', it's the fact that it's simply not there with the latest firmware updates (or if it is, it's subdued to the point that it's just not visible with any kind of content). That's why owners no longer complain about it. The only time it appears this 'issue' arises, is when a non-owner discusses it. It was a problem several firmware updates ago, but nobody complains these days.

Most of my viewing is in darkened conditions and I, like other owners, simply don't see it.
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post #1633 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's not a question of 'not seeing it', it's the fact that it's simply not there with the latest firmware updates (or if it is, it's subdued to the point that it's just not visible with any kind of content). That's why owners no longer complain about it. The only time it appears this 'issue' arises, is when a non-owner discusses it. It was a problem several firmware updates ago, but nobody complains these days.

Most of my viewing is in darkened conditions and I, like other owners, simply don't see it.

I'm not trying to make it an issue I'm just honestly curious as I have said multiple times I'm still interested in picking up a smaller F8500 in the hopefully somewhat near future.

Was it completely eliminated or is it still present and can be calibrated out?

Also imho from my experience with the floating blacks that occurred in one of my previous panasonics, not everyone can see it, my wife didn't see it until I specifically pointed it out to her, like a teacher in a classroom at the blackboard. Or better said that not everyone knows what they are seeing when it happens. Example being if I never learned what screen uniformity issues looked like I never would know what to look for so if it was a problem I wouldn't see it. Have it be you learn on your own or someone points it out.

Also a good chance that it is gone and what people are seeing is something else because they don't know what they are looking for?

One thing that is good that I don't think I have seen anyone mention is how aggressive samsung is being with there fixes and pushing out new firmware. Never seen that from a CE manufacture unless it is a huge broken bug, or if they do push it out they take forever if they ever do. Like Denon and that blue rain thing in that one model AVR or did Sharp ever fix the cyan tracking issue. With how aggressive samsung is being I wouldn't be surprised if it is fixed, or subdued to the point it's moot

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post #1634 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post

I'm not trying to make it an issue I'm just honestly curious as I have said multiple times I'm still interested in picking up a smaller F8500 in the hopefully somewhat near future.

Was it completely eliminated or is it still present and can be calibrated out?

Also imho from my experience with the floating blacks that occurred in one of my previous panasonics, not everyone can see it, my wife didn't see it until I specifically pointed it out to her, like a teacher in a classroom at the blackboard. Or better said that not everyone knows what they are seeing when it happens. Example being if I never learned what screen uniformity issues looked like I never would know what to look for so if it was a problem I wouldn't see it. Have it be you learn on your own or someone points it out.

Also a good chance that it is gone and what people are seeing is something else because they don't know what they are looking for?

One thing that is good that I don't think I have seen anyone mention is how aggressive samsung is being with there fixes and pushing out new firmware. Never seen that from a CE manufacture unless it is a huge broken bug, or if they do push it out they take forever if they ever do. Like Denon and that blue rain thing in that one model AVR or did Sharp ever fix the cyan tracking issue. With how aggressive samsung is being I wouldn't be surprised if it is fixed, or subdued to the point it's moot

It's still there and cannot be "calibrated out". Follow my post 1629 above.

Mitsubishi L75A94 2 point grayscale inop - Mits fixed it in a month
Panasonic VT50 color management system luminance controls - Panny fixed it in a month
Samsung - same fast action

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post #1635 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 10:40 AM
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^ Ok I see what you're saying. That's frustrating as hell to when you dial in your grayscale and your setting gamma and it looks perfect then you do your post and it is all jacked lol.

I wonder if it is mode specific. I want to play around with an 8500 so bad. lol

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So this is a scenario of just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. That is fine for those otherwise happy owners, but pretending it doesn't exist doesn't do those on the fence any favors.
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post #1637 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 11:16 AM
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+1 the meters and charts don't lie

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post #1638 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's not just brightness. In fact I'd put the absolute brightness between these displays much lower than the differences in ABL behavior between the two sets. The less aggressive ABL on the 8500 is, IMO, a clear differentiator between these displays.

Again, I just don't understand where you're seeing this huge impediment with the ABL. I know ABL exists on my plasmas (Samsungs and VT60), but I never notice it. I don't sit there and think, "damn I wish that ABL wasn't so aggressive". I realize that the F8500 may have less aggressive ABL than the Pannys or older Samsungs, but I don't think its something that I, or most people, find to be an issue. I just watched 'Cloud Atlast' on bluray (very interesting flick btw), and it looks dynamite. Plenty of outdoor, sunny scenes, and they all look beautiful. I'm just glad i'm enjoying my VT60 as much as I am, as it was an expensive purchase. Thank goodness the aggressive ABL isn't ruining it for me..
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post #1639 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:18 PM
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Since we have no owners that can see it, I'll favor many many pairs of eyes over what the meters say. There are times a measurement can be made, but the measured value rarely seen. That's just a fact.

IOW, if it's there and virtually nobody can see it, then I tend to not get overly concerned.

Likewise, if we have something that no calibrator checks for and therefore never measures (fan noise), but many experience, then I'd get more concerned.


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post #1640 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's not just brightness. In fact I'd put the absolute brightness between these displays much lower than the differences in ABL behavior between the two sets. The less aggressive ABL on the 8500 is, IMO, a clear differentiator between these displays.

Again, I just don't understand where you're seeing this huge impediment with the ABL. I know ABL exists on my plasmas (Samsungs and VT60), but I never notice it. I don't sit there and think, "damn I wish that ABL wasn't so aggressive". I realize that the F8500 may have less aggressive ABL than the Pannys or older Samsungs, but I don't think its something that I, or most people, find to be an issue. I just watched 'Cloud Atlast' on bluray (very interesting flick btw), and it looks dynamite. Plenty of outdoor, sunny scenes, and they all look beautiful. I'm just glad i'm enjoying my VT60 as much as I am, as it was an expensive purchase. Thank goodness the aggressive ABL isn't ruining it for me..

Perhaps this is the case that some mentioned above. Some may be more sensitive to the issue.

I've seen it countless times, with the two panels sitting next to each other. It slaps me across the face as it does to many others.

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post #1641 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Meters don't lie

Read what I wrote again. The fact that a meter can measure something, doesn't mean it's obvious, let alone can be seen. :-)

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post #1642 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:26 PM
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So you acknowledge the blacks float ? Not that it is visible ?
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post #1643 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Perhaps this is the case that some mentioned above. Some may be more sensitive to the issue.

I've seen it countless times, with the two panels sitting next to each other. It slaps me across the face as it does to many others.

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Well then hopefully my VT60 will never slap me across the face with its aggressive ABL.. and I certainly hope the FB don't ever smack you on your F8500.
Honestly, my biggest gripe if I have to be picky is the fan noise on the VT. However, I find it to be on par with plasma buzzing on my Samsungs.

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post #1644 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 02:08 PM
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I had the 64F8500 paired right next to a 65VT60 in my living room for about a week doing dark room viewing as that consists of most of my viewing.

Prior to doing this, I had actually been strongly favoring the F8500 over the VT60. In fact, I had bought the F8500 first and planned to be done with it all. However, as I reported in the F8500, that first night I had the set I immediately started seeing what I would now call severe floating black on Star Trek: The Original Series - Season 1. These are 4:3 in AR and the vertical "black" bars were changing in brightness very consistently from almost scene to scene - and sometimes within the same scene. At the same time, it was evident the image was losing contrast as well when this was happening. It was puzzling at first because these scenes on my Panasonic 65ST30 were stable and showed a bit better blacks and contrast than the F8500 in some scenes because it lacked the floating blacks on the Samsung. It was really puzzling.

At this point, I started looking at other various Blu-rays including letterbox 2:35 AR material. Once again, I was seeing this floating black issue on the F8500. At this point, I immediately had my doubts about the F8500 and ordered the 65VT60. I spent more hours than I want to admit watching and comparing these displays side by side with various Blu-ray feeds each night. I didn't have a meter, so I wasn't able to calibrate and accurately compare for things such as overall color reproduction (left anything color related to default in the F8500 in Movie mode, VT60 in THX Cinema), but did set brightness and set contrast so that both sets were putting out similar light output and were at proper black level. I used a couple of eye ball techniques for light output which also correlated to what was being reported to achieve close to 35ftl on both displays with particular settings such as Movie mode on the F8500 and THX Cinema on the VT60. So, at the end of the day, these two sets were putting out practically the same amount of light (~35 ftl). I was using an Oppo 103 feeding both players the same feed for each comparison.

Immediately, it became evident the VT60 had notably more stable blacks and deeper blacks. I mean blacks were just rock solid and very deep on the VT60. I looked at those Star Trek scenes again as well as other various movies (which included Sin City, The Dark Knight Rises, Star Wars, Castaway, and others including some brighter material). I would say only about 10% of the time were the F8500 blacks able to come very close to the VT60 and that was on a practically all black screen. As soon as ANY sort of light starts coming into the image from the content, the VT60 black superiority became evident. Sometimes it was subtle, sometimes moderate, sometimes strongly. Even my girlfriend - who is not a video enthusiast as you would guess - was able to see the often dramatic comparisons without me having to point it out. And, maybe more important, the image looks more contrasted on the VT60 as a result - it's not just the annoyance of fluctuating black bars - but a loss on contrast on the F8500. The VT60 will take on a more contrasted image in most scenes. You don't need a meter to prove it (although it will). It will be very evident watching.

Once you understand what floating blacks are and have a very critical eye watching in a dark environment, the floating blacks will be VERY evident. They will also probably be bothersome. I've had several F8500 owners PM me and have since returned the F8500 because of this. Also, we all had the latest firmware update. Let this be clear: the update that addressed the brightness pops DOES NOT FIX THE FLOATING BLACKS. MISINFORMATION IS BEING STATED ABOUT THIS POTENTIALLY CAUSING SOME PEOPLE TO MAKE A PURCHASE MISTAKE. THEY STILL EXIST AS MY EYES AND DATA INDICATED.

One other aspect of these displays is ABL. It is recognized the F8500 has better or less ABL andI would agree with this. However, even in a very bright movie such as Castaway, I only saw a couple of scenes where the sky and clouds looked just a bit dimmer on the VT60 in comparison to the F8500. I viewed a couple of hockey clips and the ice did look a bit dimmer on the VT60. I viewed all of the clips on the Spears disc - some of which a very bright, but no difference there. Some of this ABL effect will annoy some, but I personally found it not to be an issue and FAR less of an issue compared to the floating blacks. I'm sure the floating blacks will not be an issue to some and depending on the room environment.

On any rate, the F8500 is still a very good set and if you need the brightness or less reflection for a lot of bright room viewing, it's a no-brainer. It gets BRIGHT.

However, I find the nearly 41 ftl on my VT60 to be more than bright enough for any daytime viewing in my room although I understand that is not enough for some people or preferable.

Anyway, just my two cents coming from someone who actually had both sets in his living room. smile.gif


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post #1645 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 02:19 PM
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Very well said David and I assume you had the 1104 patch installed ?

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post #1646 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 02:26 PM
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HOME TEST > STORE TEST
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post #1647 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Very well said David and I assume you had the 1104 patch installed ?

Yep.

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post #1648 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 04:06 PM
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So you acknowledge the blacks float ? Not that it is visible ?

I have no idea if it's fact since I haven't seen it. So whether it's there or not (measured) is irrelevant to me. If it can't be seen I don't particularly care. If I see it and I'm bothered by it, then it is indeed an issue. As I've said, I don't see any owners complaining about it. I don't know how many times that needs to be repeated.

To make it simple, would you rather have an issue that can be seen or heard but not measured or one that can't be seen but can be measured?

Frankly, I think some here get way too hung up on things that can be measured but not seen. I've had this discussion with Kevin Miller and he agrees 100%. It's been discussed in many professional audio & video reviews too. Measured values and actual observations (whether it's audio or video equipment) are very often two very different things.

But hey, if some wish to obsess over things like this, have at it. I'll sit back and enjoy a stellar picture. smile.gif
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post #1649 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 04:22 PM
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Wow just wow

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post #1650 of 3105 Old 06-30-2013, 04:24 PM
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David has had very different observations than any owner I know of. It has been conjectured by other 8500 owners that David either had poor settings or something wrong with his 8500. I have a very discerning eye as anyone that's followed my posts over the years knows. I know what FBs look like and I simply do not have them. At the shootout I heard not one single person mention or observe these horrific FBs. One would certainly think that the 8500 would not have won the title had the problem that David observed been typical of all 8500s.

I respect David and we have traded many PMs prior to his purchase. The fact that David's observations are so dramatically different than any other owner (or professional 8500 review that I can recall, for that matter) leads one to come to 1 of 2 conclusions that I can think of: 1) All 8500 owners posting on AVS have very undiscerning eyes and have no idea what a floating black looks like or 2) David's unit either was not properly adjusted or was defective.

I'm pretty sure I know which posters here believe 1 and which believe 2. More importantly, I don't think many 8500 owners really care that much. smile.gif

In fact, using this same logic and scanning the ZT/VT threads, one can come to the conclusion, based on owner's complaints that a) the ZT/VT produce a soft picture b) the ZT/VT have insufficient brightness c) the ZT/VT suffer from fan noise. So does one assume that if one individual sees these issues that then the entire line is condemned? If so, I would heartily recommend all refrain from buying a ZT/VT based on their soft & dim picture to say nothing of the noise the fans produce. I would also recommend that all 8500 owners return their units because of the wildly fluctuating blacks.

C'mon guys, this can get to be more than a bit silly.
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