F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 05:51 PM
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That's dithering normal for a plasma at close viewing distances

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post #1982 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I went to Paul's TV last week and was able to compare the 8500 and ZT60.

I noticed what looked like grain in the black areas of the image on the ZT60 when playing the scene from Tron:Legacy during the "disc battle". It was noticeable from about 3 feet away. Granted i will never sit that close to the TV but still somewhat turned me off on the set. The 8500 didn't exhibit this.

What could have been the issue? Just a bad unit or what?

Explain "grain." You might be seeing dithering, which is pretty much solely based on the brightness setting of the set.

EDIT: I should have also clarified this is normal and is also on the F8500... again, depending on the brightness.
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post #1983 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

Explain "grain." You might be seeing dithering, which is pretty much solely based on the brightness setting of the set.

I guess the best way I can explain is, "little dots jumping around".
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post #1984 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 07:07 PM
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That is definitely dithering normal

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post #1985 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 07:40 PM
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According to the calibrators at the Shootout, the Panasonics have a tad less dithering than the F8500 this year, but from normal seating distances and proper calibration, it should not be an issue for either brand.

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post #1986 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 08:02 PM
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DrewTT, what you have to understand is the F8500 is an impeccable product. It is the purest, most chemically sound HDTV on the market, anywhere.

Samsung could charge twice the current rate for the product they provide and customers would pay it, hands down. wink.gif In other words the F8500 is Walter White approved. smile.gif
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post #1987 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 08:07 PM
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I would like to see them at thier best in a dark room and then with a light turned on in the same room....not crazy light...media room with light on and light off. Would the dark comparison be very close and the light on comparison more notably in favor of the Samsung or also close?

I don't think I am able to compare these units and judge with my own eyes. I have been to 4 BB stores including Magnolia Design Center (with a VT in a nice room looking great alone) and seen all 3 side-by-side but the lighting is brighter and with more glare than my media room. They also seem to have the Samsung on a bright mode that makes it look like an LED.

When I see the models in a dark room and seemingly adjusted better they are alone and both seem very impressive....nothing to compare.

The shootout would seem to indicate they are very close once calibrated and in a dark room.

It's interesting that I'm at about 10 for 10 BB reps pushing Panasonic over Samsung (and then recommending the Sony 4K). I don't think they have the Samsung adjusted to give it just comparison against the Panasonic. Instead you see both in somewhat exaggerated state (Sammy very bright like an LED with whites and color pop. Panasonic in light seems more natural but grey. There is less glare on the ZT than VT.

There are two clear differences:
1. Sammy can be much brighter
2. ZT is a lot more expensive!
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post #1988 of 3105 Old 09-03-2013, 10:06 PM
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Even though I have access to Panasonic Friends and Family discount, which brings the ZT down considerably, I think I am still probably going to go with the F8500. My viewing area is pretty bright during the day and I feel the F8500 will be a better fit.
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post #1989 of 3105 Old 09-04-2013, 12:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoots View Post

There is less glare on the ZT than VT.
This is one of the primary contributors to the "expense" of the ZT.
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post #1990 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 10:28 AM
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Are either of these sets a worthy upgrade to a Kuro? (I have a PRO-151FD-60"). The Samsung has me interested in a little bigger screen, more brightness in my family room, and 3D but now that i've opened the door, i have to consider the Panny as well...
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post #1991 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Expletive View Post

Are either of these sets a worthy upgrade to a Kuro? (I have a PRO-151FD-60"). The Samsung has me interested in a little bigger screen, more brightness in my family room, and 3D but now that i've opened the door, i have to consider the Panny as well...

Keep waiting a "worthy upgrade" for your Kuro will be an OLED.
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post #1992 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 12:27 PM
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So I'm in market for a new TV since mine was escorted out of the home yesterday by unauthorized visitors. I had a Samsung UN60ES8000, but honestly didn't care for that LCD picture from day one.
And now plasma shopping is where I guess I'm going next, OLED and 4K are not in my budget I don't think.

I read a lot of this thread, and tried to follow the opinions, but I'm not sure I found out who won, F8500 or ZT60? lol...

I heard great things about the no longer easy to buy Kuro sets, are these two considered the "next best thing" then?
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post #1993 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

So I'm in market for a new TV since mine was escorted out of the home yesterday by unauthorized visitors. I had a Samsung UN60ES8000, but honestly didn't care for that LCD picture from day one.
And now plasma shopping is where I guess I'm going next, OLED and 4K are not in my budget I don't think.

I read a lot of this thread, and tried to follow the opinions, but I'm not sure I found out who won, F8500 or ZT60? lol...

I heard great things about the no longer easy to buy Kuro sets, are these two considered the "next best thing" then?

There was no winner collectively -- each set is excellent. Each of us chose our personal winner with our $$.

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post #1994 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirh View Post

There was no winner collectively -- each set is excellent. Each of us chose our personal winner with our $$.

Which one did you end up going with, and why? Ok with your decision?
Wait, just saw your signature, so you got the Panny ZT60?
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post #1995 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 03:40 PM
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I remember you as one of the other unlucky ones with the Samsung ES. I think you would be much happier with the f8500. If you happened to watch movie mode with backlight at 5 or lower then there's a better chance you have tastes that would enjoy the more filmic panny lineup since you essentially don't need bright displays to achieve your preference.
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post #1996 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I remember you as one of the other unlucky ones with the Samsung ES. I think you would be much happier with the f8500. If you happened to watch movie mode with backlight at 5 or lower then there's a better chance you have tastes that would enjoy the more filmic panny lineup since you essentially don't need bright displays to achieve your preference.

Yeah, maybe it was divine intervention that it was stolen, so I could enjoy a real TV set? I really had serious buyers remorse from day 1 with the angle viewing of that LED.
I'm confused to which one you are recommending though mo949, Sammy or Panny?
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post #1997 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 07:23 PM
 
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VT and ZT60 will come the closest to matching Kuro performance and are most suited for dark room viewing, with the latter working rather well in moderately lit conditions.
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post #1998 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 08:53 PM
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Do you always watch tv in a 0 or near 0 light environment? If so, ZT60, if not, F8500. Unless you want to go cheap, then one of the 3 cheap Panny models. I'll say it again, for everyday average people who enjoy light and don't live in caves, the F8500 is the way the truth and the light. If you are a critical viewer who only watches movies in pristine conditions with all the lights off and never has lights on for their critical viewing, the ZT60 wins hands down. So obviously, for most people, it will be an F8500.

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post #1999 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 09:09 PM
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If it was for "0 light environment" why wouldn't you just get the VT? They have identical pictures in that situation and you would be negating the one advatage the ZT has over the VT (it's filter / stuido master panel). You also make it sound like the ZT/VT only shine when there is zero light (that would be as inaccurate as to say the F8500 only looks good in the light). All three of these sets look great overall in most environments, they key is knowning how they differ (and it is in very minor ways).
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post #2000 of 3105 Old 09-06-2013, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I remember you as one of the other unlucky ones with the Samsung ES. I think you would be much happier with the f8500. If you happened to watch movie mode with backlight at 5 or lower then there's a better chance you have tastes that would enjoy the more filmic panny lineup since you essentially don't need bright displays to achieve your preference.

Yeah, maybe it was divine intervention that it was stolen, so I could enjoy a real TV set? I really had serious buyers remorse from day 1 with the angle viewing of that LED.
I'm confused to which one you are recommending though mo949, Sammy or Panny?

Sorry to confuse. My recommendation is based on your preference, which I was attempting to give you a gauge with my knowledge of the es8000 settings. What backlight setting and mode did you enjoy most on the es8000?
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post #2001 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 12:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Do you always watch tv in a 0 or near 0 light environment? If so, ZT60, if not, F8500. Unless you want to go cheap, then one of the 3 cheap Panny models. I'll say it again, for everyday average people who enjoy light and don't live in caves, the F8500 is the way the truth and the light. If you are a critical viewer who only watches movies in pristine conditions with all the lights off and never has lights on for their critical viewing, the ZT60 wins hands down. So obviously, for most people, it will be an F8500.
You mean the VT60. The ZT60 has the best antireflective filter out of all 3, bar none, and works well in an environment with moderate lighting.
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post #2002 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Do you always watch tv in a 0 or near 0 light environment? If so, ZT60, if not, F8500. Unless you want to go cheap, then one of the 3 cheap Panny models. I'll say it again, for everyday average people who enjoy light and don't live in caves, the F8500 is the way the truth and the light. If you are a critical viewer who only watches movies in pristine conditions with all the lights off and never has lights on for their critical viewing, the ZT60 wins hands down. So obviously, for most people, it will be an F8500.

Thank you for your unbiased and helpful post rolleyes.gif

Best thing to do is read up and see what you think works best for YOU and where you'll locate it. All three can work in a typical environment - pictures are plentiful showing a VT in a room with windows and I am sure an 8500 does great in a bat cave. All 3 are excellent options and also improving in regards to price. Buy it from someone with a return policy, there are members who have bought one or the other and returned them for something else in order to find bliss. Regardless of which one you get, leave room in your budget for a calibration. By the way interesting reviews in the latest Home Theatre for both the VT and ZT. I also think they have reviewed the 8500 and ST, good reads.
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post #2003 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 07:35 AM
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My perceptions for three use cases are:

1. Cave (light controlled media room) - Lights Off: This is where most critical viewing is conducted (could be a projector HT)
* Pro reviews seem to pick VT/ZT (same picture in this environment) but really close (i.e. 51/49)
- slight advantage to Panasonic in blacks
- ABL behavior advantage to 8500

2. Cave - Light On: perhaps 60-70% of viewing time in this room but more casual & multi-tasking (sports, TV, some movies)
* ZT has less glare followed by 8500 - glare is my biggest concern in this lighting w/current CRT RPTV
* ZT retains blacks better than VT
* Room isn't necessarily bright but lit to where you can read the mail

3. Family Room - windows w/shades but no strong direct light & open to kitchen and hall - most viewing is with lights on and day time w/some night time movies 1 light on and occassionally light off
* Notable glare in this lighting so ZT filter appreciated
* not so bright LED is needed
* ZT thought to work better than VT in this lighting due to filter
* 8500 perceived as clear preference in this use case as it can look bright like an LED when needed (game on, shades open, lights on) and Plasma the rest of the time in various lighting including lights off night viewing with a critical eye

So I'm leaning towards ZT for Cave environments and 8500 for Family room, but 8500 is ~$1k less expensive than ZT, very close in PQ in Cave Lights Off and 4K is coming so redeploying the CAVE TV is in the road map (cave wants a bigger screen as well as best PQ....it's more a HT environment than TV environment)

while there is good debate on dark PQ delta between Panny & Sammy, the biggest deltas I clearly see are $1k price delta and brightness capability followed by the ZT glare reduction screen.
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post #2004 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Sorry to confuse. My recommendation is based on your preference, which I was attempting to give you a gauge with my knowledge of the es8000 settings. What backlight setting and mode did you enjoy most on the es8000?

I honestly don't remember what mode I was watching in, I think it was movie mode, and tweaked with some the experts settings they posted on the ES8000 thread.

My current placement situation would be more like the above's "Family Room" description, for right now. We are trying to sell this house and I hope to get a dedicated "Cave" in the future, but then this next TV I pick might stay in the family room and I might try for a projector in that new man cave, all up in the air right now.

So for right now and probably near future, the Family Room TV would be where I'm at with the new TV. Sounds like from most opinions the Sammy F8500 might be the best for that kind of room.
A good friend of mine has the Sammy PN64D8000 from 2011, and I really like it, his is mounted on a fire place and has great viewing angles and gorgeous picture in a similar type room as where I'll have mine. Only difference is right now mine will be on a TV stand. The F8500 can be mounted right, that stand can be removed?

I'm still kind of torn, but the price might help me make this decision. $1k difference in the F8500 and ZT60 is a big deal for me. Is it really a $1k difference if both were in best possible settings and calibration?

I also wanted to ask, since this would be my first plasma, will I be ok with playing video games such as Halo and Call Of Duty, and no worries about burn in with those ammo gauges etc, I've heard that doesn't really occur anymore, but wanted some more info that video game burn in.
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post #2005 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 08:47 AM
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IMO if you aren't going to be watching a lot of blurays where you dim most of the lights in the room (aka light control wink.gif) then you'll probably like the f8500 more since it will give you a more uniform version of your previous tv and will be incrementally better in some areas. So if this is you, stop right here and go buy the f8500 IMO.

If you do remember your backlight setting being turned down ( think around 5 out of 20) then that means to me you had similar brightness expectations and enjoyed watching content at a level where your eyes can see all detail. In this case I would recommend you look at the panny lineup.

If price is an issue at all looking at the ST 60 is a good idea. Also since its half the price you can take comfort knowing you could buy a whole other one in a few yrs with the savings if you did gt burn in ( which I'm not thinking you will, but it makes a nice comfort thought)
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post #2006 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

. $1k difference in the F8500 and ZT60 is a big deal for me. Is it really a $1k difference if both were in best possible settings and calibration?
.

While everyone has different perceptions of value and "difference", the professional reviews seem to all agree the delta between these flagship models in ideal settings & lighting compared side by side is very small. which I interpret as saying if I watched one set day 1 and another day 2 then I would perceive no difference (unless I was to focus on the delta between unlit letter box and black scene and could remember which seemed to be closer to unlit panel). Another poster highlighted ABL sensitivity (especially with hockey) as a delta that would be memorable).

They also highlight how they (reviewers) have develop sensitivities to subtle differences (especially black level) which may not be as pronounced in many consumers.

The TV's do seem to have different characteristics in room lighting.
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post #2007 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

Which one did you end up going with, and why? Ok with your decision?
Wait, just saw your signature, so you got the Panny ZT60?

Yes, I have the ZT60. I got my ST60 first, and the strength of that product biased me a bit towards Panasonic when looking for the other. The choices were VT, ZT, F8500 for me. I was going to view in a mix of darkness (at night) and a low to moderate level of ambient light during the day. So, I ruled out the VT, as I wanted the best picture for both viewing situations and the ZT was better in the low/moderate light from what I could tell.

In Magnolia, the F8500 did not look better than the ZT60.. but I will say that this is not a fair comparison as this BB/magnolia had a few issues, and I'm not sure any of the TVs were on their best footing. People like DavidHir have had both in their house and have a better idea of the true differences.

I did not need the brightness of the 8500, and I didn't notice any extra sharpness when I compared the two. Also, I got lucky at the time I bought the ZT60 -- the price I ended up paying was around $100+ less than I could find a F8500 for (online, or in stores) and a little cheaper than the VT.

Given I loved the ST60, I figured the ZT60 was a no brainer because of the PQ I perceived, and it ended up being cheaper at the time (even though it was only cheaper for about a week).

Ok with my decision? ABSOLUTELY. Love it!

Now, not to confuse things, but there are people who saw just the opposite in comparing the ZT60 and F8500. They bought the F8500 and absolutely love the set. My advice, as it was to someone else, is judge with your own eyes. See what you see, not what people here tell you to see. I think both sets are excellent choices. The F8500 can be had for a bit less than the ZT now adays.

Panasonic 60ZT60 // Panasonic 60ST60 // Samsung UN55B8500 // Mitsubishi HC6800
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post #2008 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirh View Post

Now, not to confuse things, but there are people who saw just the opposite in comparing the ZT60 and F8500. They bought the F8500 and absolutely love the set. My advice, as it was to someone else, is judge with your own eyes. See what you see, not what people here tell you to see. I think both sets are excellent choices. The F8500 can be had for a bit less than the ZT now adays.

It seems that at the end of the day, most people's choice were based on their Magnolia experience. It makes such a nice study to see based on their setup which store has sold more ZT60 or F8500.

In my case, all the four stores that I checked Samsung had undeniably sharper image which at times was too cartoony for me. YMMV.
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post #2009 of 3105 Old 09-07-2013, 09:36 PM
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We had both the 65ZT60 and the 64F8500 in our bonus room for 5 days. When time came to return one of them, we decided to keep the F8500. We are a TV/Satellite watching family with minimal Blu-ray movie watching (one per week at most). I also watch a boat-load of sports programming. To us, the brightness, clarity, and difference in perceived "whites" in the shows that we watch on a daily basis gave the upper hand to the F8500. Sports seemed to have just a little more pop to them, I'm assuming due to the brightness difference. We also use Skype a lot and having the camera integrated in the F8500 was another huge plus for us.

It is extremely rare that we watch anything with the lights off, so that aspect never came into play. It very well could be that if we were a Blu-ray movie watching family with minimal satellite usage, our decision may have been different.

We all felt that the ZT had a nicer presence in the room. The stand on the F8500 takes a little getting used to, but our whole unit is sitting on a black tv stand so it pretty much disappears into the background. I agree completely with everyone else that deciding between these 2 great tv's comes down to one's own viewing habits, experiences, and desires. For what we were looking for, we couldn't be any more pleased with the decision we made.
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post #2010 of 3105 Old 09-08-2013, 07:47 AM
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So the one issue that hasn't been discussed recently in the comparison of these displays, is the ABL. For new buyers, all plasmas have ABL circuitry (automatic brightness limiter). This is one of the things that people who love LED/LCDs appreciate about these displays without knowing it. LED/LCDs have no need for an ABL due to their inherent technology and therefore hit far higher peak luminance values when lots of white or bright areas are called for. Of course LED/LCDs have their own issues which drive many to plasmas.

Unfortunately all plasmas have ABL circuitry since their power supplies are unable to produce full screen or near full screen whites with the same intensity as a smaller area of white. It's easy to see if you look for it and if you're sensitive to it, it hits you like a sledge hammer.

I gravitated toward the 8500 partly because of the fact that the ABL on the 8500 is less severe. Thus it's able to produce a full screen white or near full screen white with less of a reduction in brightness and less of what many call 'grayish whites'. Is the 8500 immune to the issues of ABL? Unfortunately not, but it's much less noticeable IMO than it is on other plasmas. That to me translates to a more convincing rendering of bright outdoor scenery that's very common in quite a bit of programming. To my eyes the differences between the rendering of very bright scenes was greater than it was with the rendering of dark scenes between competing plasmas.

To a fair degree, the issue of ABL is a problem that can be seen in any kind of room lighting (or lack thereof).

Fortunately, like LED/LCDs, it appears that OLED is free of the need and handicap of ABL but doesn't have the issues that current LED/LCDs have.
Ken Ross is offline  
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