F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 02:15 AM
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I saw the F8500 the other day at Best Buy and I have to say I was impressed by the brightness. I have a 600M at home which I love, but it looks like crap during the day even in ISF Day mode. I have a lot of windows and skylights so it pours a lot of light into the room. There are those who like or need LCD brightness for various reasons but hate LCDs, and love plasma motion, realistic picture and black levels. I think the F8500 was meant for those people. It may not be for the purist, but it does the trick for real world viewing.
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post #182 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 03:41 AM
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I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

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post #183 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

very well said...

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post #184 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 05:23 AM
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I don't have anything constructive to add here, but it's.... interesting to see how almost every single conversation on these boards seem to go in circles. Do folks not get tired of arguing the exact same points with the exact same people? Because really, it isn't like it's different individuals hopping into a thread to say 'xyz,' its the same people rehashing what they stated last week.

Thoughts?
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post #185 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?


At least me personally, I want to see how a production ZT60 does once calibrated. Will it be that much different from what we have, so far its all been speculation. If the numbers are "that good" then I might wait ti see the ZT in person, but right now really its between the VT60 and F8500 for me, since I dont know if I realy want to wait until June August to order a set. I really dont care which set wins, I dont need to "stick measure" or gloat about contests or reviews.
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post #186 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

Yes, some people do rely on the results of the shootout. I dont see why that is such a bad idea.

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post #187 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jch1 View Post

I don't have anything constructive to add here, but it's.... interesting to see how almost every single conversation on these boards seem to go in circles. Do folks not get tired of arguing the exact same points with the exact same people? Because really, it isn't like it's different individuals hopping into a thread to say 'xyz,' its the same people rehashing what they stated last week.

Thoughts?

I As soon as I saw the thread I knew it was going to become a circle jerk. Wait till the ZT comes out then all 7734 will break loose.
Samsung vs Panasonic......dark rooms vs light rooms.....first world vs second and third world......

I still like to read through the posts as a form of entertainment.

Carry on........
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post #188 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kaosv1 View Post

I As soon as I saw the thread I knew it was going to become a circle jerk. Wait till the ZT comes out then all 7734 will break loose.
Samsung vs Panasonic......dark rooms vs light rooms.....first world vs second and third world......

I still like to read through the posts as a form of entertainment.

Carry on........

smile.gif You just managed to summarize 7 pages very well.
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post #189 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Yes, some people do rely on the results of the shootout. I dont see why that is such a bad idea.

The point is, there isn't going to be some big revelation at the shootout. For fun, I understand, but for being the deciding factor in a purchase after all the reviews that are out there and people using their own eyes...blows my mind.

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post #190 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

I agree somewhat with you, but not entirely......the ZT and VT60 should be slightly better than the VT50 so let's see how they look calibrated next to the Samsung. The Samsung firmware update in beta form should arrive so we can see if that eliminates brightness pops and possibly improves floating blacks. In addition, more comparisons with low and high brightness content will further reaffirm the ABL functionality of these sets. Those of us who have specific viewing preferences will get a more definitive idea with which display would suit our wants and needs better. I would like to see more definitive feedback on motion between these sets too and the Shootout would be a great place.

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post #191 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

smile.gif You just managed to summarize 7 pages very well.

Well lets be fair, the 1st page was helpful to the OP, then once the OP "left" it all went to heck biggrin.gif Somehow it went from helping someone make a decision to debating this set vs that set....
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post #192 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I agree somewhat with you, but not entirely......the ZT and VT60 should be slightly better than the VT50 so let's see how they look calibrated next to the Samsung. The Samsung firmware update in beta form should arrive so we can see if that eliminates brightness pops and possibly improves floating blacks. In addition, more comparisons with low and high brightness content will further reaffirm the ABL functionality of these sets. Those of us who have specific viewing preferences will get a more definitive idea wiith which display would suit our wants and needs better. I would like to see more definitive feedback on motion between these sets too and the Shootout would be a great place.

I get it, I'd like to see if the samsung update has any bearing on the blacks, too, but anyone who's waiting on this already watches in a light controlled environment, is really passionate about this hobby, and is a little ocd wink.gif There are great reviews on these sets from David McKenzie, ChadB, and Kevin Miller, along with AV Forums. The ZT hasn't been reviewed, so yes, that's intriguing.

If you're on this thread, you have specific viewing preferences smile.gif

The VT/ZT60 are going to look great and so will the Samsung. Anyway, I understand and agree with your viewpoint. It's really a show for entertainment, getting some of the best people in the industry together, and having a great time watching and evaluating the best displays money can buy. It's a marketing event at this point for these companies.

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post #193 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

It may have been a different thread, but I think someone here already stated that none of us would buy a plasma if we just walked into a bright showroom and purchased whatever looked best in that environment. And I agree with that. In a typical B&M store like Best Buy, you've got a bunch of LCDs with max luminance at about 100 fL, and you have video loops of bright content that is often pushing plasmas to MUCH lower luminance levels. It makes plasmas look like junk. Years ago, I purchased a 32" IPS LCD HDTV (my first LCD display) that looked great to me in the store. I HATED that TV when I got it home. It had backlight bleed, and its MLL was horrifically bad (I eventually bought my first colorimeter and measured a contrast ratio of 600:1). But it looked just fine in the store, using "my own eyes" to judge the image quality. So yeah, I now read reviews from pro calibrators and reviewers -- as many as I can possibly find. If it was feasible for me to purchase five different TVs, spend a week or so calibrating and comparing all of them in my home, then determining which one I am happiest with and returning all of the others, then that is exactly what I would do. But that's not very practical. So I don't understand why anyone would find fault with those of us who read reviews and/or owner comments. I think it would be pretty stupid not to.

That’s what I was saying a couple pages ago. When I went to best buy 2 years ago the ST30 looked terrible compared to the bright LEDs. Luckily I had read enough reviews that I already knew that was the set I was going to buy so I didn't hesitate. It seems like the ST60 is a nice upgrade from the reviews I've read so I will probably upgrade this year. If I went to Best Buy to see what it looks like I'm sure I wouldn't upgrade but luckily there will be plenty of reviews I can base my decision off of. If got it home and it looked bad then I would trust my eyes and return it. I just don't have that luxury at Best Buy, Sears or Wal-Mart.
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post #194 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 07:11 AM
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Gmarceau,

There are good reviews, but seeing these three sets optimally calibrated and sitting directly next to each other in a dark room with various content is THE best way to judge, period. smile.gif No reliance on memory needed. "Hmmmm, yeah I seem to recall the VT being around that dark when I saw it a few weeks ago." I know with the VT30 a couple of years ago they showed specific content which display the color decoding issue. Here everyone can see for themselves with various content under specific lighting or lack of which is crucial.

I am sure the event is awesome to attend and would like to go one day...will have to watch it online for now. smile.gif

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post #195 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Well lets be fair, the 1st page was helpful to the OP, then once the OP "left" it all went to heck biggrin.gif Somehow it went from helping someone make a decision to debating this set vs that set....

Well that is true. Good point. 6 pages then.
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post #196 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

The point is, there isn't going to be some big revelation at the shootout. For fun, I understand, but for being the deciding factor in a purchase after all the reviews that are out there and people using their own eyes...blows my mind.

Most people don't have the luxury of viewing each set together, calibrated, and in a controlled environment. I wouldn't call the results a big revalation, but definitely something to factor in when making a purchase decision IMO.

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post #197 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 08:39 AM
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Guys, we're on the same page, I basically agree. So much in fact, that I'll be at the shootout smile.gif

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post #198 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

Ken as an aside, is this display supplementing your Sharp Elite or to replacing it? In my case I am looking for a display to supplement my Sharp Elite and I am torn also 60" 8500 or VT/ZT60.....hell.... maybe even an 65hx950 now that they have dropped the price.

Mix, we're in the same boat. I'm moving my Elite into the bedroom and getting the new display for the Den to supplement it. My original plan was to get the 70" Elite for the Den, but you know how that went. So I'm looking at my 2nd choice picks and they're pretty much the same as yours. It seems the 950 is getting very tough to get and I'm still a bit concerned about banding. They all have them and it's just a question of how sensitive you are to it and how bad it is on your specific panel.

So I'm pretty much torn between the F8500 and the ZT60, though I'm leaning F8500. We'll see how the shootout goes, but I really want to see a variety of material in that shootout, dark, bright and mixed. I think it's also important to view this same material with lights on & lights off. That's the only fair way to let all these displays show how versatile they are (or aren't). wink.gif

Top_Cat, thanks for the kind words. smile.gif
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post #199 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Ken didn't I say that some people won't trust their own eyes but trust what others say smile.gif

Yup. What can you say?
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post #200 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

But I red in a review that the F8500 has issue's like :
-Color accuracy and skin tone.
-In some scenes white's turn to greenish.
It has deep black's and brightness but it couldn't beat last year's Panasonic ST50.

Not sure where you heard it couldn't beat last year's ST50. Who said that and in reference to what? The MLLs of the 8500 are better than the VT50 and the brightness is considerably better.

As for the color issues you state, again, I have no idea where you read that. Any calibrator worth his salt will be able to give you whites without green and accurate color. The Kevin Miller calibrated 8500 had identical color to the VT50. So either the VT50's color is also inaccurate or both are accurate.
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post #201 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Most people don't have the luxury of viewing each set together, calibrated, and in a controlled environment. I wouldn't call the results a big revalation, but definitely something to factor in when making a purchase decision IMO.

This is why the shootout is so important to me. Which one wins will be a factor but a small one; Unless the winner is so far ahead of the rest but I doubt it. I'll look at the pluses and minuses revealed by the shootout to determine which set works best for me.

In college I learned the two answers to any question my boss ever asks. "It depends..." and "Given enough time and money..."
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post #202 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

I saw the F8500 the other day at Best Buy and I have to say I was impressed by the brightness. I have a 600M at home which I love, but it looks like crap during the day even in ISF Day mode. I have a lot of windows and skylights so it pours a lot of light into the room. There are those who like or need LCD brightness for various reasons but hate LCDs, and love plasma motion, realistic picture and black levels. I think the F8500 was meant for those people. It may not be for the purist, but it does the trick for real world viewing.

There's also no reason why it shouldn't be for the purist either. If it can achieve better MLLs than almost any plasma with the exception of the 60 series and better than any of last year's highly touted for black levels, VT50s, and at the same time achieve unprecedented brightness levels, it sure could fit a purist's bill easily IMO. It very fit mine.
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post #203 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

I couldn't agree more and very well stated. This is why I've asked for a variety of material to be displayed. Dark material is only one aspect of what we watch. The last time I looked, there are tons of very bright scenes with lots of bright expanses. I want to see those too in comparison to the other displays. A test that only centers on dark material is, IMO, flawed. We watch all types of material.

But to your point that these displays are already so close and yet you see people trashing one set or the other...well, talk about absurd. I saw with my own eyes that a calibrated VT50 next to a calibrated F8500 was very hard to tell apart with dark scenes even though the MLL of the 8500 was somewhat better. Bright scenes, hockey etc? No question the 8500 did better and not marginally so. Color? You couldn't pick them apart. Sharpness was in favor of the 8500, but by no means a huge margin.

For me though, despite having seen a ZT60 at the Panasonic show, I still don't think I 'really' saw it. I want to see this in comparison to the real competition, not a display that hasn't been available for years and I wouldn't buy today anyway. I want to see a VT 60 playing bright imagery. I know it will do well with dark scenes, but I want to see how it compares in all types of material. Not asking too much, right? smile.gif
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post #204 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:43 AM
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Is there some downside inherent to just having the option of going brighter? You can still set it as dim as you want without a problem right, or are purists just frowning on plasma even having the capability of matching LED/LCD brightness?
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post #205 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Gmarceau,

There are good reviews, but seeing these three sets optimally calibrated and sitting directly next to each other in a dark room with various content is THE best way to judge, period. smile.gif No reliance on memory needed. "Hmmmm, yeah I seem to recall the VT being around that dark when I saw it a few weeks ago." I know with the VT30 a couple of years ago they showed specific content which display the color decoding issue. Here everyone can see for themselves with various content under specific lighting or lack of which is crucial.

I am sure the event is awesome to attend and would like to go one day...will have to watch it online for now. smile.gif

Dave, the one thing you have to be careful with when showing something like a color decoding error, is how exaggerated it is when you pop up a full screen of the offending color. The real question is how does it look with normal content and how much of a role does that offending color play in typical content. You know what comes to mind for me, right? The cyan error in the Elite. Sure, when a full screen of cyan is popped up in the lower luminance range where the error is, it looks off, no doubt about it. But really, how often do we see full screen cyan in lower luminance values?

I guess what I'm saying is that we need to take issues in the context of the total picture.
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post #206 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Is there some downside inherent to just having the option of going brighter? You can still set it as dim as you want without a problem right, or are purists just frowning on plasma even having the capability of matching LED/LCD brightness?

Funny stuff. Seems like a rhetorical question to me, but reading some posts you'd think there is some heresy in have a brightness capability unlike any other plasma. I honestly have no clue how this could be anything but a plus...a big plus for some people. smile.gif
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post #207 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm curious, for those that are waiting for the shootout to make their decision, what's going to be the overriding factor? Is it simply which set wins?

Based on Kevin Miller already calibrating an F8500, they basically look the same as one of his calibrated VT50s with better brightness and clarity.

I've seen both sets in person, spent time evaluating them in a home theater setting with demo material and they are so similar to each other, it's ridiculous. If I had to give an advantage, it's the F8500 just because I enjoy the look of that image more, but don't we know how the shootout is going to go down? The ZT will win in blacks, and it'll win in other calibration measurements that are already imperceptible to the human eye on the set that comes in second place in those (I'm looking at you, delta errors) and the sets will basically look the same when they're displaying reference images, so what do people think is going to happen at the shootout that's going to change that?

Not sure if it'll resolve my question but looking at the numbers I assume both can be calibrated to look pretty much the same in a 'dim lighting' (lighting = 2/5) scenario. I'm curious how much better the Panasonic will look in 'no lighting' (lighting = 1/5) vs how much better the Samsung will look in a 'low lighting' (lighting = 3/5). I'm currently leaning towards the Panasonic because I really want some awesome lows but if the Panasonic is marginally better in no lighting but the Samsung is WAY better in low lighting that'll change stuff :/

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post #208 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Dave, the one thing you have to be careful with when showing something like a color decoding error, is how exaggerated it is when you pop up a full screen of the offending color. The real question is how does it look with normal content and how much of a role does that offending color play in typical content. You know what comes to mind for me, right? The cyan error in the Elite. Sure, when a full screen of cyan is popped up in the lower luminance range where the error is, it looks off, no doubt about it. But really, how often do we see full screen cyan in lower luminance values?

I guess what I'm saying is that we need to take issues in the context of the total picture.

Ken, I agree, but I remember the VT30 error was displayed on content with all displays. It was purple or blue not being correct on the VT30 where a woman had on a dress...where as all of the other displays showed it properly.

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post #209 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 10:33 AM
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Just keep in mind as you are reading these that the f8500 black levels can only be achieved by enabling the black optimizer feature which is not always stable and has not recorded impressive ansi contrast numbers which could be a result of rising blacks and further indication of instability in the image. Also there are reports that there is non-defeatable image enhancements being performed that affect the source frames brightness and create side effects. The vt50 has stable blacks and better ansi contrast, but cannot match the overall brightness. There are tradeoffs. The zt is not out yet, so no comment there.
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post #210 of 3105 Old 04-25-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Is there some downside inherent to just having the option of going brighter? You can still set it as dim as you want without a problem right, or are purists just frowning on plasma even having the capability of matching LED/LCD brightness?

i dont get it either. guess they have nothing better to argue about! im curious what car they drive... what speed does it max out at? do they always drive it at full speed? if they dont then logically they need to go get a bicycle

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