F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 3105 Old 11-24-2013, 08:24 PM
 
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Everyone steals, even Apple.....wink.gif But that's another topic.
In postmodern times, two wrongs make a right, I suppose.
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post #2162 of 3105 Old 11-25-2013, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirh View Post

My zt60 was calibrated brighter over thx cinema. It ended up being 38ftl with black at. .0012. So I'm a case where calibration made it brighter.

It looks great. D-nice did a superb job. When people say it's too dim I wonder what their viewing environment is like. There are times I've considered using my night mode (32 ftl). I think the 8500 light output would have been wasted on me.

Any further thoughts on comparison now that your ZT and ST are calibrated?
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post #2163 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 08:33 AM
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Any further thoughts on comparison now that your ZT and ST are calibrated?

I had the ZT60 calibrated but not the ST60. Ran low on time, plus the way the TV is used I wouldn't really get the value out of a calibration right now. If that changes, I'll ask DNice to come back.

With that said, the ZT60 looks better than before cal. It is brighter. The major issue it seemed with mine in THX Cinema was gray scale. That was obviously out of whack. So the two areas my ZT benefited most was brightness and gray scale, which fixed a couple of issues I was noticing.

With that said, the uncalibrated ST still holds up. I had put in settings posted previously and tried a few out and picked the one I liked best. My thoughts are after calibration the ST and ZT would be close in performance given the ST still looks great uncalibrated. I have a feeling some calibrators who have done both would have some interesting comments here. As I said somewhere else, there is a difference between the two, but the ZT is not 2x the ST like some reviewers have claimed. I love both these sets. That extra 10-15% real-world performance costs top dollar, just like in cars and other things.

I still say for the vast majority of people, even ones that set a high bar, the ST60 is just great. Take the savings and invest is some good av gear, unless you want to have that extra bit of display performance. This is not to say the ZT is no good, its just the ST is really really good especially given the price. I think the 60ST60 is Panasonic's parting gift to the world of plasma.

The ZT is still better and it is the set I watch the most, but as I've told many, most people won't agree the quality difference is enough to support the price gap. If I had paid the full asking price early in the year others did, I would not be as happy. When I bought mine, it was cheaper (barely) than the VT and the F8500 during that very brief sale BB had, so the price gap wasn't as it has been in the past. The 60ZT60 is $2560 on Amazon now, but that's still a $1k+ difference, Not as bad as the $2K+ difference it used to be. $1K can still get some great gear. It looks like that price just started today though (so the gap as of yesterday was $1.3k) - who knows how long that will last.


The bottom line is you can't go wrong with either set. If you want top performance, the ZT60 WILL deliver. The ST60 is 85-90% of the performance for a big price break and gets significantly brighter than the ZT. Both are keepers for me and I wouldn't have done anything different after having compared the two. I do want that extra performance.
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post #2164 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 11:05 AM
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Well, in terms of price, the delta isn't as huge if you get a good deal. I'm getting my ZT for $2900 with some accessories thrown in. In terms of the cost of something, it really comes down to resale value. The last TV panasonic makes and it's already known. What do you think the resale value would be if someone posted a mint condition Kuro? The cost is really the depreciation. The up front cost really doesn't mean that much. The ZT, if purchased properly, likely presents the same value as an ST that will, in a short time, be just another 65" TV.
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post #2165 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 11:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Have had the ZT60 for two weeks now. Been having issues with inconsistent 3D playback.

However, another problem that I find is that even in a completely darkened room, the ZT60 is quite dim. A show like Boardwalk Empire, which is very dark in colors and tone, is a perfect example of how much detail is lost in night scenes.

Furthermore, when watching night scenes in 3D Blu-ray content, there is a lot of detail lost due to the fact that the screen does not get bright.
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Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

The display is basically always darker after ISF.

For me, the ZT is not bright enough. Truth is, that's the one knock on this display. If the ZT had the brightness of the 8500 and kept the same blacks, the set would be better than the Kuro, and then there would never even be a conversation about the 8500.There would be no ZT versus 8500 thread. The ZT would be a slam dunk!
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Originally Posted by sirh View Post

I had the ZT60 calibrated but not the ST60. Ran low on time, plus the way the TV is used I wouldn't really get the value out of a calibration right now. If that changes, I'll ask DNice to come back.

With that said, the ZT60 looks better than before cal. It is brighter. The major issue it seemed with mine in THX Cinema was gray scale. That was obviously out of whack. So the two areas my ZT benefited most was brightness and gray scale, which fixed a couple of issues I was noticing.
Hey, Ronald and Ken, are you listening?
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post #2166 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post



Hey, Ronald and Ken, are you listening?

Whats the question? Listening to what?

Ken
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post #2167 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 11:58 AM
 
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The question is, does a full calibration always yield a darker picture? I hope the answer, while anecdotal, is obvious.
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post #2168 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 12:39 PM
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Honestly, I do not do calibrations. I can only go by my previous plasma and DLP projector calibrations in the past. Also someone who does do calibrations and is fairly well known on AVS told me that my ZT would be dimmer after calibration. Do I know for sure that it would? No.

I can tell you this. I got the ZT because of all of the reviews, even though it was pointed out that it was on the dim side. I heard that the 8500 was brighter but the blacks were close but not as good as the Panny. I did get the ZT and it was too dim for me. I decided to try the 8500 since Best Buy gives you until 1/15/14 to return. I had both displays in my house and the Samsung won out for me and my wife. I was so impressed with the image, and I am really picky.
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post #2169 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
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I have seen Ken's display and I am impressed.  I like it much better than the ZT60, though I will admit, the blacks are not as dramatic.  Thought the 3D was more pronounced as well, most likely due to the fact that there was more light output.  The dimness of the ZT60 (which doesn't brighten in 3D mode) is causing less dramatic 3D effects.

 

I am in the process of talking to calibrators to see if I could actually get the ZT60 picture any brighter in movie and 3D mode.  Sent a PM to D-NICE.  Hoping to hear back from him.  Also talking with Mark Rubin, who was recommended to me.

 

I am also talking with the store I purchased the ZT60 from about swapping it for a Samsung F8500 to see what the costs would be.

 

I have been very fortunate to have been given an extended timeframe to make the right decision.

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post #2170 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by housequestion View Post

In terms of the cost of something, it really comes down to resale value. The last TV panasonic makes and it's already known. What do you think the resale value would be if someone posted a mint condition Kuro? The cost is really the depreciation. The up front cost really doesn't mean that much. The ZT, if purchased properly, likely presents the same value as an ST that will, in a short time, be just another 65" TV.

I think that you are deluding yourself if you think that a VT60 will have anything more than a negligible resale value after a few years. In several years the technology will be a footnote in history with all the negatives about the technology mentioned but few of the good aspects mentioned. Parts and service will dwindle. The set weighs 130 lbs,, is fragile and a beast to transport. At some point 4k media avaiiability will arrive and the VT60 will be down sampling the content if it can handle the encryption. If in fact one does find buyers who appreciate the qualities of the VT60, they will be few and far between as most of the well healed, quality appreciating, buyers will be buying the newest, latest and greatest. If one is focused on minimizing their loss on a plasma set, go to Costco or Sam's Club and get the 65PS64 with square trade warranty for $1300 + $95 and expect to put it in the dumpster after 5 years.
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post #2171 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirh View Post

My zt60 was calibrated brighter over thx cinema. It ended up being 38ftl with black at. .0012. So I'm a case where calibration made it brighter.

It looks great. D-nice did a superb job. When people say it's too dim I wonder what their viewing environment is like. There are times I've considered using my night mode (32 ftl). I think the 8500 light output would have been wasted on me.

If you do not mind me asking, what was the contrast setting to get the monitor that bright? Also, was gamma set for 2.2 or 2.4? I have never heard of a ZT being able to output that much light. If I could get mine to 38 ftl, I would never consider exchanging it for a Samsung.

Thanks.
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post #2172 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Newenglander View Post

If you do not mind me asking, what was the contrast setting to get the monitor that bright? Also, was gamma set for 2.2 or 2.4? I have never heard of a ZT being able to output that much light. If I could get mine to 38 ftl, I would never consider exchanging it for a Samsung.

Thanks.

Gamma target 2.2; Contrast is 90. Remember there are panel brightness levels as well and also the brightness control that can get you there. My suggestion is to get a calibrator to do it right for you

Panasonic 60ZT60 // Panasonic 60ST60 // Samsung UN55B8500 // Mitsubishi HC6800
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post #2173 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 04:05 PM
 
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Looks like I was right, as always. People kept insisting than Pannys would all be gone by the holiday season and I was oh so dumb to say people didn't ened to buy one a few weeks ago. Now I see Amazon has the 60zt60 for $500 less than it was then.
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post #2174 of 3105 Old 11-26-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newenglander View Post

If you do not mind me asking, what was the contrast setting to get the monitor that bright? Also, was gamma set for 2.2 or 2.4? I have never heard of a ZT being able to output that much light. If I could get mine to 38 ftl, I would never consider exchanging it for a Samsung.

Thanks.

While 38ftL may be plenty for a lot of people, especially in light controlled rooms, it still pales in comparison to the F8500's capabilities. There are certainly many who find the advantage useful or even necessary depending on viewing area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The F8500 is a light output heavyweight, breaking records in my experience for large plasmas. Light output could have been as high as 58 fL after calibration in Movie mode, though I backed that down to about 51 fL after viewing some program material. Cal-Day could be calibrated up to an astonishing 84.1 fL, but otherwise behaved similarly to Movie mode once the proper groundwork was laid.
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post #2175 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 12:33 PM
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Wanted to give everyone an update....

 

Have had the ZT60 for about 3 weeks now.  Robert Zohn of Value Electronics

was very kind to allow me an extended period of time to enjoy this display and

put it through its paces.

 

I have decided to return the ZT60 for the Samsung F8500.

 

The ZT60 is a gorgeous display.  It has the most unbelievable blacks I have ever

seen -- so much so it pains me to part with this display.

 

The problem is, even in a completely darkened room, the display is too damn dim.

 

I have to say that Robert Zohn and Value Electronics have taken good care of me

through this entire ordeal and am making certain that I am getting a display that I am

going to be happy with.

 

I see some people are upset that they missed the deal on the Panny display.  Really, 

I would put some considerable consideration towards the Samsung instead.  There are

many people on this forum that have had both and prefer the F8500.

 

Will have the F8500 in a week to 10 days.  

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post #2176 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Wanted to give everyone an update....

Have had the ZT60 for about 3 weeks now.  Robert Zohn of Value Electronics
was very kind to allow me an extended period of time to enjoy this display and
put it through its paces.

I have decided to return the ZT60 for the Samsung F8500.

The ZT60 is a gorgeous display.  It has the most unbelievable blacks I have ever
seen -- so much so it pains me to part with this display.

The problem is, even in a completely darkened room, the display is too damn dim.

I have to say that Robert Zohn and Value Electronics have taken good care of me
through this entire ordeal and am making certain that I am getting a display that I am
going to be happy with.

I see some people are upset that they missed the deal on the Panny display.  Really, 
I would put some considerable consideration towards the Samsung instead.  There are
many people on this forum that have had both and prefer the F8500.

Will have the F8500 in a week to 10 days.  

Hi Ronald,
Congratulations on going the team. smile.gif

I'm glad it worked out for you and that you were able to return the ZT.

Believe me, you can get everything you want from the 8500. I am amazed every time I look at my picture. The set had about 100 hours on it when you saw mine. It even looks better now. So much so that I am not even going to get it calibrated.
Ken
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post #2177 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 12:44 PM
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Ken,

 

I owe a lot to you.  I appreciate you inviting me to your home so that I could really compare the two displays.

 

You heard me exclaim that even the 3D looked better on the Samsung.

 

By the way, I hope you are moving forward with getting an Oppo 3D player.  I think you will really appreciate the added entertainment value 3D Blu-rays provide.

 

Will be another week or so until the exchange is made.  Will check back with everyone then.

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post #2178 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newenglander View Post

If you do not mind me asking, what was the contrast setting to get the monitor that bright? Also, was gamma set for 2.2 or 2.4? I have never heard of a ZT being able to output that much light. If I could get mine to 38 ftl, I would never consider exchanging it for a Samsung.

Thanks.

I believe it requires a compromise in gamma flatness, but don't quote me.

My VT60 puts out 40.6 ftL calibrated extremely well.

Panasonic65VT60ISFDay.pdf 1312k .pdf file
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post #2179 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

Hi Ronald,
Congratulations on going the team. smile.gif

I'm glad it worked out for you and that you were able to return the ZT.

Believe me, you can get everything you want from the 8500. I am amazed every time I look at my picture. The set had about 100 hours on it when you saw mine. It even looks better now. So much so that I am not even going to get it calibrated.
Ken

So no calibration, no tweaking of any of the modes? Just out of the box, play a movie full screen for 100hrs and thats it?
Mine is still in the box and I'm wondering what I need to do picture wise, I know the 100hrs of use is important, but what about tweaking of modes, any settings I need to work with?
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post #2180 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

So no calibration, no tweaking of any of the modes? Just out of the box, play a movie full screen for 100hrs and thats it?
Mine is still in the box and I'm wondering what I need to do picture wise, I know the 100hrs of use is important, but what about tweaking of modes, any settings I need to work with?

No. That's not what I mean.

I'm saying that I am happy with my picture. Could it be improved by calibrating? Yes. I don't think I am going to do it though.

The image that you like is what YOU like. There is no right and wrong when it comes to personal taste.

What YOU need to do is plug that thing in an enjoy it! It sounds like you heard unfound horror stories and are afraid. Just watch full screen during break in and that is it.

I set mine to movie mode and played around with the cell light, contrast, brightness a but to my liking.

Don't form a judgement right out of the box. I found that looking at it after 24 hours that it was night andy day better than start up. It will be even nicer everyday.
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Can anyone tell me what is the best TV after all?

I have a Pioneer KRP-600A that has a "perfect" picture and i don't want to be disapointed.
I have a light controlled room, but i hear many good things about th2 2 sets Samsung 8500 and Panasonic VT60. However i see many people trading their ZT60 for the Samsung.
Is the Samsung picture perfect as the Panasonic? There is also an important fact,...the Panasonic ZT60 has 60 inch in Europe and as for the 8500 is can go 64 inch...it's only 4 inch more but bigger is better right smile.gif
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Can anyone tell me what is the best TV after all?

No. biggrin.gif
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post #2183 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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I've read that the Samsung has is a bit "noisy" on the dark scenes....i don't like that mad.gif


Is this true?

What about SD movies, will they look better on the Panasonic or Samsung?
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post #2184 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 02:23 PM
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You should inquire about floating blacks also

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post #2185 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 02:26 PM
 
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You should inquire about floating blacks also

On the Samsung you mean right? Didn't heard about those on the Panasonic...
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post #2186 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

Can anyone tell me what is the best TV after all?

I have a Pioneer KRP-600A that has a "perfect" picture and i don't want to be disapointed.
I have a light controlled room, but i hear many good things about th2 2 sets Samsung 8500 and Panasonic VT60. However i see many people trading their ZT60 for the Samsung.
Is the Samsung picture perfect as the Panasonic? There is also an important fact,...the Panasonic ZT60 has 60 inch in Europe and as for the 8500 is can go 64 inch...it's only 4 inch more but bigger is better right smile.gif
2 to 3 is many?
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post #2187 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

Can anyone tell me what is the best TV after all?

I have a Pioneer KRP-600A that has a "perfect" picture and i don't want to be disapointed.
I have a light controlled room, but i hear many good things about th2 2 sets Samsung 8500 and Panasonic VT60. However i see many people trading their ZT60 for the Samsung.
Is the Samsung picture perfect as the Panasonic? There is also an important fact,...the Panasonic ZT60 has 60 inch in Europe and as for the 8500 is can go 64 inch...it's only 4 inch more but bigger is better right smile.gif

Obviously no one can tell you what monitor you are going to like the best. I have had the ZT 60 for a short time and compared to my Kuro it is too dim and the PQ is so sub-par I can not even put it in words. I am exchanging it for the F8500, but if I had a functioning KRP-600 there is no way I would upgrade unless you want 3D or a larger size screen. But make sure you purchase it from someone with a good return policy:)
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post #2188 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 03:11 PM
 
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Make that 4. Sounds like you got a defective set. Having upgraded from a 111FD, sub-par is not a term I could use to describe the ZT60. I suppose it's a good thing Panasonic is bailing for all you unhappy owners.
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post #2189 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 05:16 PM
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Sooo...better blacks Panny, better brightness Sammy?

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post #2190 of 3105 Old 11-27-2013, 05:40 PM
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I just exchanged my vt60 for the f8500. Comes on Tuesday. The vt60 was way to dim for me. It always looked like there was some kind if protective film covering the screen. I also think I had a bad panel because the blacks were not as black as they were on the stores display. The 3D was inconsistent too. At times the 3D looked 2D.
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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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