F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:00 PM
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to just indicate again what i was saying, the available professional settings do not allow the zt60 to increase sharpness, because the digital processing going on in the zt60 brings in data processing artifacts. sure you can bring up the sharpness control but it wont get the job done as far as being comparable to the f8500. ( try a darblet on the zt60 maybe, as i did) . the color calibration and white point settings of the zt60 will not remove the green tinge. i have no axe to grind with anyone, just stating the facts of what i observed both in the store and in my home. if someone wants the best blacks and wants to sacrifice a sharp crisp tight picture, and occasionally observe green where it's not supposed to be, and hear a fan, then they should get the zt60. if they want a brighter image that still holds good black level specifications, and has slightly better whites, a tight image that has no softening, without fan noise then the f8500 is best. thats what the thread is about right? giving input on what someone likes and has experience with. if someone else has an experience with both of these then by all means report your opinion! but DEFINITELY these are way different panels. so if everyone can refrain from retaliation for my experience that would be great! it's the holiday season.
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post #2252 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:07 PM
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You had your set professionally calibrated and the green tinge remained ?

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post #2253 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:15 PM
 
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There's a first for everything, I guess. confused.gif
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post #2254 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:21 PM
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yes it was calibrated for about 6 hours in a dark room. i had the tinge both before AND AFTER calibration by someone who calibrates monitors nearly everyday using top of the line equipment, and a private number to calman engineers. i don't have the green tinge on the f8500. i was not able to remove the green in skin tones that would happen under some image content.
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post #2255 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

yes it was calibrated for about 6 hours in a dark room. i had the tinge both before AND AFTER calibration by someone who calibrates monitors nearly everyday using top of the line equipment, and a private number to calman engineers. i don't have the green tinge on the f8500. i was not able to remove the green in skin tones that would happen under some image content.

couldn't that be display specific?...the green tinge that is..and I don't mean the Panny's or the VT60, but rather your display in particular.
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post #2256 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

to just indicate again what i was saying, the available professional settings do not allow the zt60 to increase sharpness, because the digital processing going on in the zt60 brings in data processing artifacts. sure you can bring up the sharpness control but it wont get the job done as far as being comparable to the f8500. ( try a darblet on the zt60 maybe, as i did) . the color calibration and white point settings of the zt60 will not remove the green tinge. i have no axe to grind with anyone, just stating the facts of what i observed both in the store and in my home. if someone wants the best blacks and wants to sacrifice a sharp crisp tight picture, and occasionally observe green where it's not supposed to be, and hear a fan, then they should get the zt60. if they want a brighter image that still holds good black level specifications, and has slightly better whites, a tight image that has no softening, without fan noise then the f8500 is best. thats what the thread is about right? giving input on what someone likes and has experience with. if someone else has an experience with both of these then by all means report your opinion! but DEFINITELY these are way different panels. so if everyone can refrain from retaliation for my experience that would be great! it's the holiday season.

When I had the F8500 and VT60 in my living room for about a week, I looked at sharpness and resolution patterns. The F8500 is not resolving even a hair more of detail than the VT60. However, the F8500 does have a very, very slight amount of built-in edge enhancement, but I couldn't detect it from normal seating distances. While feeding the same video signal from an Oppo 103 player to both displays, even subjectively, neither looked sharper than one another with both at similar light outputs (~33-35 ftL).

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post #2257 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:25 PM
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Los Angeles:

I see the same thing on my ST60 from time to time if that is common for the ZT60s that is a shame. You are the first one I have heard have that problem on the ZT line.

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post #2258 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:29 PM
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it has to do with signals that are compressed, as you might see on off air or direct tv. pure pristeen 50mbs images are less effected by the lack of sharpness on the zt60 (but its still there). if someone wants to call it edge enhancement they can, but actually its not that, its better digital processing. the f8500 images are sharp tight and crisp, no dancing no half pixel modulation.
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post #2259 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:31 PM
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Although I do not have the ZT60 but instead the VT60 I have no issues with green tinting except when using Dnice's settings on my panel.
This simply proves that each panel is different and there is more variability then what was found with my Kuro 111 which looks fantastic with his settings.

Sharpness is a matter of preference I suppose and in my case having it set to zero looks plenty sharp and I feel no need to increase it.

Definitely agree on the fan issue which can be addressed or a non-issue with later builds.

Anyhow from what I gather the 8500 overall should be a solid set but I find my VT60 is also quite good as well, it has some quirks I am having to get accustomed to; otherwise it actually does somethings better than my Kuro.

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PS I find the Darblet to be waste of money and is detrimental to picture quality even though a few seem to find its adjustments alluring.

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post #2260 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:34 PM
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oppo is licensing the darblet technology...i dont think its great, except for projectors.
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post #2261 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:34 PM
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I think the sharpness thing is personal preference honestly I have heard the softness complaint for years and I have never experienced a sharpness problem on any of the Panasonics I have owned. Some prefer LED sharpness others think it looks artificial that is a debate that won't be resolved here.

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post #2263 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 04:37 PM
 
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post #2264 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
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Ohhhhh if you see artéfacts or green tint in those pic tell me ok !

Changboy, are those pictures from your capture card or straight from a camera?

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post #2265 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 05:58 PM
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the problem is not a green tint, its a green "tinge" or faint shadow. you posting pictures from a digital capture card proves nothing, really neither do any photographs, as what matters is the display, not a capture or photograph. maybe it was my specific unit, but i doubt it as i could see it at the store on the display before buying the zt60. mine was new in the box, i thought i could get rid of it by proper settings but i could not. you only see it on some images. if you increase the brightness of the zt60, the picture falls apart in all kinds of ways. thats the main reason the f8500 prevails. ok well thanks everyone! thoses are my points! good luck and hopefully it helped someone to check things out before they buy.
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post #2266 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 06:10 PM
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I am not able to see these panels in person so let me throw this out there:

I have a 3 year old Samsung PN58B860. It was a fairly well reviewed panel when it was new. It has never been calibrated but when I use CNET's settings (optimized for a dark room) or simply the "Movie" mode to watch a BluRay, the picture looks very dark and muted to me. I don't enjoy it at all and usually watch everything in "Standard" mode. I watch regular TV with a little ambient light and usually watch BluRays with no light.

I have 2 questions: Would there be a significant upgrade in the PQ with either one of these displays? Considering how I feel about CNET's settings and the "Movie" mode would I be disappointed with the ZT's perceived lack of brightness in comparison to the 8500?

And I know that it's all up to what I see with my own eyes but I was just looking for some opinions. Thanks!
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post #2268 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

to just indicate again what i was saying, the available professional settings do not allow the zt60 to increase sharpness, because the digital processing going on in the zt60 brings in data processing artifacts. sure you can bring up the sharpness control but it wont get the job done as far as being comparable to the f8500. ( try a darblet on the zt60 maybe, as i did) . the color calibration and white point settings of the zt60 will not remove the green tinge. i have no axe to grind with anyone, just stating the facts of what i observed both in the store and in my home. if someone wants the best blacks and wants to sacrifice a sharp crisp tight picture, and occasionally observe green where it's not supposed to be, and hear a fan, then they should get the zt60. if they want a brighter image that still holds good black level specifications, and has slightly better whites, a tight image that has no softening, without fan noise then the f8500 is best. thats what the thread is about right? giving input on what someone likes and has experience with. if someone else has an experience with both of these then by all means report your opinion! but DEFINITELY these are way different panels. so if everyone can refrain from retaliation for my experience that would be great! it's the holiday season.

Data processing artifacts in the ZT60??? Now I know it's time to move on to another topic. If anything, there's something going on with the F8500 as all video ouput looks the same as if all content was intended to look like an HD video show. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first but then it hit me while channel surfing that every damn channel looked the same! It was completely artifical looking. So, I threw in a blu ray or two...voila, it's doing it again! Then, I remembered something...I remembered when I took my Arcam DV139 DVD player (you can google it to read its stellar reviews) to Best Buy to evaulate how well upconverted 1080p content looked on a larger screen size (besides, the majority of the movies I watch are documentaries & foreign films), the F8500 was brighter, with what always appeared to be an artificially sharper picture. By the way, the Arcam was connected to the VT60, ZT60, F8500 & a Sharp Elite. All of which displayed what they were feed in a more natural, film-like way.

Now, there were things I really, really liked about the F8500 but that homogoneous video look (likely due to some sort of sharpness processing or edge enhancement that adversely affects image depth) and that excessive brightness for the sake of brightness output, I would have absolutely kept the F8500. If Samsung implements meaningful upgrades to the G8500, I would definitely buy it. In the meantime, I'm having fun playing around with the VT60 & ZT60. Oh, and I do find the ZT60 bright enough even when using THX Cinema or D-Nice's settings (Professional 1) in the daytime. However, I own the 60ZT60 and it seems to be slightly brighter and sharper/crisper than the 65" models I remember seeing. That was one of the reasons I opted for the 60" size. But, I coulda been imagining things...wink.gif
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post #2269 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 09:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

the problem is not a green tint, its a green "tinge" or faint shadow. you posting pictures from a digital capture card proves nothing, really neither do any photographs, as what matters is the display, not a capture or photograph. maybe it was my specific unit, but i doubt it as i could see it at the store on the display before buying the zt60. mine was new in the box, i thought i could get rid of it by proper settings but i could not. you only see it on some images. if you increase the brightness of the zt60, the picture falls apart in all kinds of ways. thats the main reason the f8500 prevails. ok well thanks everyone! thoses are my points! good luck and hopefully it helped someone to check things out before they buy.
Hey, thanks for sharing your honest opinion and impression. I don't agree with your findings, but this is the more appropriate way to do it.
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post #2270 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

i had both the zt60 and the f8500 at the same time,mounted in nearly the same place. i can tell you that all this talk of the panasonic being cinematic is a nice word for an overpriced SOFT display with substandard active processing going on, causing different problems. the zt60 is only good if you're going to watch it from 40feet away, then you wont see how soft it is. the digital processing is not as good as the f8500, the zt60 whites look grey and yellow, depending, and you occasionally see a tinge of green on faces and skin tones. my zt60 was professionally calibrated in los angeles, by those who set up monitors for sony pictures. After 5 weeks i returned the zt60 and will never look back. the f8500 has a fantastic yet accurate picture. if you're a mole and can afford it get the zt60, if you're a normal person who loves movies and sports viewing in a normal household, who likes a nice clean and crisp image, get the f8500. plus the fan noise is ridiculous and not necessary. panasonic sacrificed every other picture element it looks like to get a better black, well its black alright!

Nice troll post.


Agree with your assessment.
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post #2271 of 3156 Old 12-09-2013, 10:15 PM
 
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post #2273 of 3156 Old 12-10-2013, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

When I had the F8500 and VT60 in my living room for about a week, I looked at sharpness and resolution patterns. The F8500 is not resolving even a hair more of detail than the VT60. However, the F8500 does have a very, very slight amount of built-in edge enhancement, but I couldn't detect it from normal seating distances. While feeding the same video signal from an Oppo 103 player to both displays, even subjectively, neither looked sharper than one another with both at similar light outputs (~33-35 ftL).

David,

Thanks for posting.

Were your comparisons made with static patterns or moving patterns.
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post #2274 of 3156 Old 12-10-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

to just indicate again what i was saying, the available professional settings do not allow the zt60 to increase sharpness, because the digital processing going on in the zt60 brings in data processing artifacts. sure you can bring up the sharpness control but it wont get the job done as far as being comparable to the f8500. ( try a darblet on the zt60 maybe, as i did) . the color calibration and white point settings of the zt60 will not remove the green tinge. i have no axe to grind with anyone, just stating the facts of what i observed both in the store and in my home. if someone wants the best blacks and wants to sacrifice a sharp crisp tight picture, and occasionally observe green where it's not supposed to be, and hear a fan, then they should get the zt60. if they want a brighter image that still holds good black level specifications, and has slightly better whites, a tight image that has no softening, without fan noise then the f8500 is best. thats what the thread is about right? giving input on what someone likes and has experience with. if someone else has an experience with both of these then by all means report your opinion! but DEFINITELY these are way different panels. so if everyone can refrain from retaliation for my experience that would be great! it's the holiday season.

I like that "holiday season" ending.
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post #2275 of 3156 Old 12-11-2013, 09:05 AM
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Hey, I am going to throw this convo slightly off topic for a second.

I am about to purchase a VT or ZT before it is too late. I've had Best Buy calibrate a family member's Samsung LED. Of the major brands, I dislike Samsung LED the most because it is too bright and washed out. I enjoy Sony LEDs the most on factory settings. The calibration made the Samsung LED TV look pretty good and more natural. I certainly observe much more color detail than could be seen before. It also seems to have caused more light bleed, as the TV shows light streaks when you turn it on, and in certain dark scenes. Overall, I am very happy with how the calibration looks, even if it is not my TV. I have a friend who's Samsung LED looks better than factory w/ BBY calibration as well.

I've read many times that a "good" calibration is a much more methodical process than BBY performs. Can someone highlight the differences? I am asking in this thread because there is a nice collection of plasma nerds (and trolls smile.gif ). Anyone with before and after picture for calibration would be greatly appreciated. PMs are fine too!

Thanks.

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post #2276 of 3156 Old 12-11-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

Hey, I am going to throw this convo slightly off topic for a second.

I am about to purchase a VT or ZT before it is too late. I've had Best Buy calibrate a family member's Samsung LED. Of the major brands, I dislike Samsung LED the most because it is too bright and washed out. I enjoy Sony LEDs the most on factory settings. The calibration made the Samsung LED TV look pretty good and more natural. I certainly observe much more color detail than could be seen before. It also seems to have caused more light bleed, as the TV shows light streaks when you turn it on, and in certain dark scenes. Overall, I am very happy with how the calibration looks, even if it is not my TV. I have a friend who's Samsung LED looks better than factory w/ BBY calibration as well.

I've read many times that a "good" calibration is a much more methodical process than BBY performs. Can someone highlight the differences? I am asking in this thread because there is a nice collection of plasma nerds (and trolls smile.gif ). Anyone with before and after picture for calibration would be greatly appreciated. PMs are fine too!

Thanks.

i've actually heard mixed reviews on BB's work. some good, some bad. most ppl who have personal experience had noted an improvement.

my theory, is that with the majority of displays being so terribly calibrated out of the box, i'm not surprised even a 'quick' calibration will make a huge improvement. you probably need a true pro to squeeze out that last 10-15%, and with displays as good as the vt/zt, that might be all the improvement you can really get over out of the box settings and a set-up disc.

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post #2277 of 3156 Old 12-11-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

Hey, I am going to throw this convo slightly off topic for a second.

I am about to purchase a VT or ZT before it is too late. I've had Best Buy calibrate a family member's Samsung LED. Of the major brands, I dislike Samsung LED the most because it is too bright and washed out. I enjoy Sony LEDs the most on factory settings. The calibration made the Samsung LED TV look pretty good and more natural. I certainly observe much more color detail than could be seen before. It also seems to have caused more light bleed, as the TV shows light streaks when you turn it on, and in certain dark scenes. Overall, I am very happy with how the calibration looks, even if it is not my TV. I have a friend who's Samsung LED looks better than factory w/ BBY calibration as well.

I've read many times that a "good" calibration is a much more methodical process than BBY performs. Can someone highlight the differences? I am asking in this thread because there is a nice collection of plasma nerds (and trolls smile.gif ). Anyone with before and after picture for calibration would be greatly appreciated. PMs are fine too!

Thanks.

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post #2278 of 3156 Old 12-11-2013, 12:16 PM
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skidawawgz

How would you describe your viewing habits in terms of room brightness?
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post #2279 of 3156 Old 12-11-2013, 03:13 PM
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This is troll number one.

The professional calibrator will go over the result and use a repetative and interative process that can take up to 6 hours, to squeeze out the last few improvements.

BB will do the calibration once or maybe twice to a spec that they have been told to use. They have been told that once a certain spec is met that any other improvements are not visually able to be discerned by a human viewer. This is true to a point, but also not necessarily true to those of you who read this.

Also a professional calibrator may own their spectrometer and they are familier with it, and it may resolve more than the basic $2k sprectrum analysis that can happen with the equipment that BB wil provide. Any calibrator who is calibrating the ZT60 or the f8500 would be using calman 5.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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