F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 3105 Old 01-13-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by housequestion View Post

"For my tastes, the Samsung F8500 is the better display, particularly for its 3D output. The Panasonic just didn't do justice to 3D content compared to the Samsung. I also feel the Samsung has much better whites while retaining the same black levels of the ZT60."

Yeah because you know 3D makes up such a large proportion of people's viewing.

Well, he did say for "his taste". 3D in the home is pretty lame though. Only time I have enjoyed it is in the Imax.
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post #2612 of 3105 Old 01-13-2014, 11:25 PM
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Ronald I've been keeping up with all your posts and they've been very informative... I'm awaiting delivery of a ZT60 so I'll get to see in person how the relative dimness of the set affects me.
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post #2613 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by housequestion View Post


Yeah because you know 3D makes up such a large proportion of people's viewing.
Have to agree here. It really sounds like 3D is the most important part of his decision to keeping and liking the F8500 which would obviously not be most people's reason for choosing one of these TV's.

If the TV's 3D was terrible I wonder how Ronald would really feel about the Samsung or if he would look for another TV if given the option.
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post #2614 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 05:25 AM
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To be fair, Ron has pointed out other factors aside from 3D. He has specifically commented on how black levels, to his eye, were essentially as good as the ZT. Additionally he has pointed out the much brighter, overall picture. These factors transcend just 3D.

Using the same logic, with black levels being the attraction for ZT owners, we could ask "if black levels were lousy on the ZT, would owners look for another TV". The point is they're not and ZT owners like their TV. 8500 owners like their brightness, black levels and some, not me, like their 3D.

It is what it is.
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post #2615 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

To be fair, Ron has pointed out other factors aside from 3D. He has specifically commented on how black levels, to his eye, were essentially as good as the ZT. Additionally he has pointed out the much brighter, overall picture. These factors transcend just 3D.

Using the same logic, with black levels being the attraction for ZT owners, we could ask "if black levels were lousy on the ZT, would owners look for another TV". The point is they're not and ZT owners like their TV. 8500 owners like their brightness, black levels and some, not me, like their 3D.

It is what it is.
Oh, I agree but when reading his review and just going off an assumption of how it sounded, his writing style portrayed much more excitement when disussing the 3D making it sound like that was really the turning point of his decision. So I was just saying for someone who does not watch much 3D it would really be a different ballgame for them in their decision making.

Saying blacks don't matter as much as 3D is not really the same. It is black levels that give you the great PQ. Otherwise we can just go with an LED at half the price with so so blacks. Also, as much as someone says the black levels are the same it is well proven they are not and there really is no arguing with that. It is almost like somone saying the ZT is just as bright as the F8500. It's a fact that that the F8500 blacks are not equal to that of the ZT and it is a fact that the F8500 is brighter then the ZT60. Now pick what is more important to you. During the day the blacks on my es7500 were as black as black can be but we all know the black levels on that TV do not come anywhere close to the ZT or even the F8500.

I am not saying one is better then the other but I am just saying his choice in TV sounds more like 3D was a heavy factor in his decision. If you read back a few pages he even mentions wanting to try the 3D when the TV was to be delivered before the drivers left with his ZT60. I have never heard of anyone wanting to try the 3D out on a TV during the delivery inspection. That should tell you how much 3D weighed in on his choice of TV. I don't want to speak from Ron but can only comment from what he has posted here and come to that conclusion.
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post #2616 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 08:04 AM
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To be fair, Ron has pointed out other factors aside from 3D. He has specifically commented on how black levels, to his eye, were essentially as good as the ZT. Additionally he has pointed out the much brighter, overall picture. These factors transcend just 3D.

 

 

Thank you, Ken.

 

Again, overall, both displays are top-notch.

 

However, I give an edge to the Samsung for my particular tastes.  The picture is sharper, the whites are whiter, and it has the same level of blacks as the ZT60.

 

So, aside from 3D, I still give the edge to the Samsung.  I am really loving the picture on this display.  

 

 

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Ronald I've been keeping up with all your posts and they've been very informative... I'm awaiting delivery of a ZT60 so I'll get to see in person how the relative dimness of the set affects me.

 

 

Vic, I wouldn't worry about it.  I and another person have been outcast from the ZT60 thread for suggesting the display doesn't push enough light.  We are a minority with that opinion so I am guessing you won't have any problems with light output.

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post #2617 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 08:11 AM
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Congrats, Ron!

You picked the TV that you felt was better suited for the type of viewing that's important to you. To me, your choice was an easy one...you wanted and got the plasma display which is likely better suited for 3D watching and has the highest metered brightness...the F8500! Voila!!

So, congrats and let the 3D movie marathon begin! tongue.gif
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post #2618 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

However, I give an edge to the Samsung for my particular tastes.  The picture is sharper, the whites are whiter, and it has the same level of blacks as the ZT60.
Obviously you picked the TV that was best suited to your needs and if the F8500 was $1,000 cheaper I would probably own one myself but I wouldn't be making claims that the blacks are the same as the ZT60. It has been very well proven as fact that it isn't and I don't own a ZT60 either.
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post #2619 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:04 AM
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It has been very well proven as fact that it isn't and I don't own a ZT60 either.

 

Proven as fact?  And you haven't had the chance to own either display as I have?

Okay, well, I will say this...

 

No two people will necessarily see a display in the same manner.  It's subjective.

 

To my eyes -- and I have compared the same content on both displays -- the F8500 has just as deep blacks as the ZT60.

 

I truly don't expect everyone to agree with that assessment, but that is what I am seeing.

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post #2620 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:09 AM
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From a black measurement standpoint the blacks are quite a bit deeper on the ZT, but real world viewing conditions are another thing, I think you would have to view them side by side to see the difference honestly. I think what you are saying is that perceptually they seem about the same to you which I think is reasonable. If we are talking meter measurements that is where it is not subjective.
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post #2621 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:19 AM
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i haven't had the zt60 at home...

watching stuff on the f8500 at home, the 'blacks' aren't black. they are good, very good in fact, but they still aren't crt levels where i wonder if i turned the tv off or not.

from what i saw in stores, the zt60 was also still noticeably 'on' when producing black. it was also, among the best i've seen recently.

it's getting to a point where it's tough to compare. i'm sure(from the numbers) the zt60 gets blacker. what i'm not convinced of is if it's really enough to care about. my gut says take every bit of extra blackness you can get, but my mind wonders how much my eyes will just adjust. given enough time to adjust, i'm going to see that the zt60 isn't 'black' either, so is the difference going to be appreciated when i'm not looking for it? will i still need to use bias lighting?

i guess if i wanted to sum it up, the zt60 has good blacks, and the f8500 is good enough. i just find it hard to believe anybody would be 'bothered' by how 'bright' the blacks are on the f8500 and satisfied with how deep they are on the zt60. imo, both are a bit of a compromise(neither is 'off' black), but a very small compromise as they are both exceptionally close

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post #2622 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:30 AM
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My 64 Samsung has the same dark glow in a dark room as my Pioneer 5020 when using a 0% black slide. However, since it is 64 inches vs 50 inches, it will stick out more because of the larger area it covers in the room. Yes, the ZT and VT has better blacks than my 5020, and thus better blacks than my Samsung. I knew that when I bought it. But I chose to have an overall great picture in all conditions, than the best in dark rooms, and average in brighter rooms. There are tradeoffs for both models. Both are excellent, and whatever one you decide to get will be an excellent choice.

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post #2623 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:36 AM
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I am at the same place right now as I am scouting for a plasma TV. I have it narrowed down to a Samsung F8500 or Panasonic VT60 or ZT60. Does anyone know if the Samsung AR filter limit vertical viewing? The TV has to be mounted high up above the fireplace and I worry even with a tilting mount that the image will be darkened looking up to the display. Does the Panasonic's suffer from the same type of AR filter limitation? In deciding between the Panny's, I can't get enough clear information on the web to determine which TV would work best for me. My setup has a wall of 2 story windows facing east, but most of our TV watching will occur when the sun is the southern or western hemisphere. Obviously the ZT has a better filter, but is it $500 better? Would it be of value in my setup or would a VT60 be fine?
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post #2624 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:40 AM
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I think what you are saying is that perceptually they seem about the same to you which I think is reasonable. If we are talking meter measurements that is where it is not subjective.

 

I think that is reasonable.

 

If I read correctly about the meter measurements when I was investigating both displays, they were rather close.

 

I think it would be very difficult for some to say the blacks are better on any one of these displays.  If it makes anyone feel better, I will go even further to say that anyone going from a ZT60 to an F8500 isn't going to see enough difference in black levels to be bothered by it.

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post #2625 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Proven as fact?  And you haven't had the chance to own either display as I have?


Okay, well, I will say this...

No two people will necessarily see a display in the same manner.  It's subjective.

To my eyes -- and I have compared the same content on both displays -- the F8500 has just as deep blacks as the ZT60.

I truly don't expect everyone to agree with that assessment, but that is what I am seeing.
I own a VT60 which is also proven as fact to have better blacks then the F8500. There is a difference between perception and actual measurments. I also don't need to own anything to see what each TV measures. Again, fact vs perception.

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post #2626 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:53 AM
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Honestly, I've owned both TV's and I've had them in my house on the same day. The ZT60's black level are noticeably better. The PQ on the ZT to me is noticeably better, and the 3d has less crosstalk although definitely dimmer. The f8500's picture looked flat and fake to me, almost like LCD but obviously way better PQ and blacks then LCD. Also the whites on the f8500 are noticeably better and brighter.

The f8500 is a tv for people who want excellent PQ in a bright room. Don't get me wrong the ZT still performs good in a bright room but the f8500 is def better. If you have a dark room or controllable light, the ZT is just all around better. I'm watching a Netflix documentary called "Stephan Hawking's Grand Design", as I'm typing this and it actually looks incredible. My girlfriend even commented about how amazing it looked, words she never uttered while have the f8500 in my house for 2 months.
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post #2627 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

I think that is reasonable.

If I read correctly about the meter measurements when I was investigating both displays, they were rather close.

I think it would be very difficult for some to say the blacks are better on any one of these displays.  If it makes anyone feel better, I will go even further to say that anyone going from a ZT60 to an F8500 isn't going to see enough difference in black levels to be bothered by it.

This is utterly just false.

I have a VT60 and had an F8500 in my living room for a week side by side getting fed the exact same content from my Oppo and even my girlfriend could see the difference in blacks between the two displays *with any kind of content on the screen*. Now, if we are talking a complete or nearly complete black screen, then yes, the two displays are very close, but that is not how we watch material.

Zoyd's chart perfectly demonstrates the issue and what I was seeing with my eyes.

http://cdn.avsforum.com/e/ec/ec9012cc_ScreenShot2013-06-05at1.27.04PM.png

As far as 3D, yes the F8500 does have brighter 3D, but the colors and grayscale cannot be calibrated properly because Samsung didn't include enough controls, so you end up watching in essence, improper colors. The VT/ZT also has very slightly better color decoding in 2D once properly calibrated.
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post #2628 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 10:59 AM
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Ron,
The black level difference between the two is so small, that unless they are side by side, it is nearly impossible to distinguish a difference between the two. The light output difference is much more noticeable. The Samsung also doesn't have the issue with the AR filter, where you lose some image fidelity when you move to the side.
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post #2629 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Ron,
The black level difference between the two is so small, that unless they are side by side, it is nearly impossible to distinguish a difference between the two.
Enjoy your Samsung.

Floating blacks are rather visible even not when side by side though (in dark room).
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post #2630 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

As far as 3D, yes the F8500 does have brighter 3D, but the colors and grayscale cannot be calibrated properly because Samsung didn't include enough controls, so you end up watching in essence, improper colors. The VT/ZT also has very slightly better color decoding in 2D once properly calibrated.

Took the words right out my mouth, I forgot to mention this in my post when I was talking about the 3D. The 3D is def brighter on the 8500 but in my opinion it's better on the ZT, more accurate colors, less crosstalk and more pop out.
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Originally Posted by bourmb View Post

I am at the same place right now as I am scouting for a plasma TV. I have it narrowed down to a Samsung F8500 or Panasonic VT60 or ZT60. Does anyone know if the Samsung AR filter limit vertical viewing? The TV has to be mounted high up above the fireplace and I worry even with a tilting mount that the image will be darkened looking up to the display. Does the Panasonic's suffer from the same type of AR filter limitation? In deciding between the Panny's, I can't get enough clear information on the web to determine which TV would work best for me. My setup has a wall of 2 story windows facing east, but most of our TV watching will occur when the sun is the southern or western hemisphere. Obviously the ZT has a better filter, but is it $500 better? Would it be of value in my setup or would a VT60 be fine?

If the tv is angled down at your sitting posistion, you will be fine. These new filters, not just on Samsung, are designed to diffuse light that is coming down on them, and also coming up on them. So if you stand over your tv and look down, the image brightness will be much less, same with sitting on floor looking up at screen.

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post #2632 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

From a black measurement standpoint the blacks are quite a bit deeper on the ZT, but real world viewing conditions are another thing, I think you would have to view them side by side to see the difference honestly. I think what you are saying is that perceptually they seem about the same to you which I think is reasonable. If we are talking meter measurements that is where it is not subjective.

Once you get to a black level of .003 foot lamberts, which the F8500 achieves, I think you're good. With brightness (which is black level) properly adjusted, your blacks will be black when they're suppose to be.

Those who are seeing something else should review their settings and try running a calibration disk's pluge pattern to recheck their black level.

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post #2633 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Floating blacks are rather visible even not when side by side though (in dark room).

I have not seen many complaints on the floating blacks, which means a) they aren't noticeable to most, or b) the issue has been corrected.

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I have not seen many complaints on the floating blacks, which means a) they aren't noticeable to most, or b) the issue has been corrected.

D-Nice discussed them at the Shootout and I have discussed the issue with other calibrators who have actually seen them. If you don't do dark room viewing, you won't see them. Some people may not mind them.
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Once you get to a black level of .003 foot lamberts, which the F8500 achieves, I think you're good. With brightness (which is black level) properly adjusted, your blacks will be black when they're suppose to be.

Those who are seeing something else should review their settings and try running a calibration disk's pluge pattern to recheck their black level.

I agree. I know when I use the Spears and Munsil disc to calibrate brightness, the brightness level is too high when using pluge low compared to using the brightness/contrast pattern. If one sets their brightness to see bars 17 and higher, the pluge low will show the checkerboard pattern indicating the brightness is too high. I noticed where many have brightness set at 47 or 48 on their samsung, and that looks good using the brightness/contrast pattern, but 44 or 45 is more accurate with the pluge low pattern.

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post #2636 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:20 AM
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D-Nice discussed them at the Shootout and I have discussed the issue with other calibrators who have actually seen them. If you don't do dark room viewing, you won't see them. Some people may not mind them.

I was at the shootout, and yes, D-Nice said under careful examination, he did notice them on occasion, however noone in attendance claimed to see the floating blacks. And there have been firmware updates since May, but I'll adjust the statement regardless to include your theory.

The lack of complaints regarding the floating blacks, are mostly likely due to a) they aren't noticeable to most, b) people aren't watching their display in dark rooms, or c) the issue has been corrected.

Minimal complaints equals non-issue, for the majority.

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The black level difference between the two is so small, that unless they are side by side, it is nearly impossible to distinguish a difference between the two.

 

It's not so amazing that so many people in this thread cannot agree on it.

 

That tells me that there is a perception difference when it comes to black levels between both displays, and for most, it will probably be indistinguishable.

 

I stand by my findings as well as I am certain that those who have actually seen both stand by theirs.

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It's not so amazing that so many people in this thread cannot agree on it.

That tells me that there is a perception difference when it comes to black levels between both displays, and for most, it will probably be indistinguishable.

I stand by my findings as well as I am certain that those who have actually seen both stand by theirs.
The funny thing is there are a bunch of current and former F8500 owners that clearly state the blacks are better on the ZT60. Besides yourself, I have never heard any current or former owners of the ZT60 who went to an F8500 or to a ZT60 from the F8500 and make the claim that the blacks are equal on both TV's. It is usually pretty consistent with the F8500 is brighter and the blacks are better on the ZT60. For daytime viewing the F8500 and for nighttime the ZT60.

I owned an ST60. I remember the blacks being amazing. I can make the statement I remember them being just as good as my VT60 but I know they are not as proven be measurements. But I remember watching that TV thinking the blacks were as black as can be.
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post #2639 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 11:53 AM
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The funny thing is there are a bunch of current and former F8500 owners that clearly state the blacks are better on the ZT60. Besides yourself, I have never heard any current or former owners of the ZT60 who went to an F8500 or to a ZT60 from the F8500 and make the claim that the blacks are equal on both TV's. It is usually pretty consistent with the F8500 is brighter and the blacks are better on the ZT60. For daytime viewing the F8500 and for nighttime the ZT60.

I owned an ST60. I remember the blacks being amazing. I can make the statement I remember them being just as good as my VT60 but I know they are not as proven be measurements. But I remember watching that TV thinking the blacks were as black as can be.

So by your own admission, until you saw metered readings, you could not distinguish the difference in black level between the ST60 and the VT60. Tha being said, the Samsung F8500 has measured black levels lower than the ST60.

So as JimP stated, once you get down to certain level, blacks look black. Side by side, under careful scrutiny, can you find subtle differences? Yes, but noone is going to have the two displays side by side in their house.

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post #2640 of 3105 Old 01-14-2014, 12:02 PM
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Tha being said, the Samsung F8500 has measured black levels lower than the ST60.
.

According to the Shootout, the F8500 measured .0018 and the ST60 measured .0016 (per D-Nice).
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