F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 94 - AVS Forum
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post #2791 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post


Yes i'm sure my family must have different DNA than the rest of humanity, and in that world you would be correct. lmao
As for OLED they will come with their own set of problems i'm sure so these tedious exchanges will continue on....
However Back to Reality, if I were you I would be more concerned with the following:

1) FULL HD 3D

Samsung F8500 has FULL HD 3D while the Panasonic VT & ZT only have Half the Resolution let me explain:

Samsung plasma TVs are unique when it comes to 3D because they scan each of the screen refreshing steps which
make up one full 3D frame at full vertical resolution (1080 lines), whereas their Japanese rival Panasonic's has instead
chosen to reduce the resolution of intermediate steps. They do this by only scanning half the lines making it normally around 540,
and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive
technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...

2) Video Process Resolution

"The Video Processing on the F8500 is clearly superior to the Panasonic especially when it comes to 24fps material from Blu-ray."
quote from Kevin Miller, Professional Calibrator for the Value Electronics Shootout.

The Samsung uses 96Hz processing for handling 24fps material from Blu-ray movie discs, and it works very well.
In fact, this is an area where the Samsung  F8500 series handily outperforms the Panasonic.

The Panasonic’s 96Hz processing scheme appears to first take the signal to 60Hz inserting 2:3 pull-down,
and then converting the signal to 96Hz. This process produces an unacceptable amount of judder in the
picture and is best left at the 60Hz setting in the Panasonic.

Thumbs-Up if you like hearing the Facts
Not so nice cherry-picked facts. The last thing you'll get from me is a thumb's up. You're retreading on the 3D front (and only telling half the story) and should move on like the good mod said. I can't think of one professional organization that has begun to use the F8500 as their new reference (after using the Kuro for so many years). There are a couple who are now using a V/ZT, however.

PS. I don't see what Kevin Miller sees in 96Hz mode nor have I seen any other substantiation of the claim.
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post #2792 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 08:57 AM
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Eric,

You're generalizing the consensus of those who attended the shootout and voted for the Samsung, by one attendees feelings?

I was in attendance as well, and we didn't sit 20ft away, perhaps Gene did. I was in the second row, directly in front of the Kuro, Samsung and Panasonic. The audience was filed with industry professionals and videophiles who were well aware of what a quality display does and should look like.

The shootout was very thorough, where test patterns and content were used to put the displays through their paces and to critique one against the other. Company reps and the calibrators went over the pros and cons of each display.

The audience over 2 days ranked the Samsung number one. The three professional calibrators ranked the Panasonic over the Samsung because of their viewing habits, and even still, by the slimmest of margins. I think D-Nice himself said he ranked the Panasonic as 100 and the Samsung 99.

Both displays are excellent. It all comes down to preference.

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post #2793 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 09:47 AM
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People love to manipulate the shootout results but the facts are undeniable when looking at the scorecards. The samsung side always points out that the experts only chose the panasonics by a slim .1 margin which is true. What they always leave out is that the margin was only so small because of a big win in the day mode category. Every other category was won by the panasonic, in some cases by a significant amount like .4 or .7. Enjoy your day mode, and I will enjoy my black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, moving resolution, and video quality.

As it has been said many times before, if brightness was the most important aspect of PQ we would all be in the LED forums. The 8500 is a great set, but being great with high ambient light does not make it the number one display when it lags behind in every other component that was evaluated.
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post #2794 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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That 96hz comment AlaskanAVGuy alluded from Kevin Miller was based on the 2011 models - not the 2013s. The calibrators said the video processing was basically a wash between the Panasonics and Samsungs at the 2013 Shootout.

Samsung might have full rez 3D, but the color is inaccurate because of inadequate controls. What good is full rez if your color is that far off. The VT60 actually has very good 3D and really nice color and greyscale tracking once properly calibrated.

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post #2795 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 09:55 AM
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At the next shootout will we get to see the superiority of a plasma set or will we be force fed only LCD samples because that is what the industry wants to sell?
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post #2796 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 09:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

That 96hz comment AlaskanAVGuy alluded from Kevin Miller was based on the 2011 models - not the 2013s. The calibrators said the video processing was basically a wash between the Panasonics and Samsungs at the 2013 Shootout..
Wow, so much for "facts."
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post #2797 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 10:02 AM
 
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Actually, it was the 2012 model comparison when he compared the F8500 with the VT50 because the 2013 panels hadn't even been released yet: TweakTV F8500 Review
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Miller 
As of this writing, the Samsung F8500 series PDPs actually surpasses the recognized leader in performance in the category, the Panasonic VT50 series in some key performance parameters. While the Samsung is slightly lower in its black level, and may even get lower with more break-in time, the luminance of the white squares of an ANSI checkerboard pattern do not measure as bright as they did on last year’s Panasonic TC-P65VT50, which brings the contrast ratio down on the Samsung. This is odd considering I set the peak light output at the beginning of the calibration on the Samsung to 40 fL, and the Panasonic only achieved 33 fL in the Night mode calibration. I will be re-measuring a VT50 to confirm the contrast ratio results on that panel. In any case, this issue is relatively minor when looking at reference grade video material from Blu-ray. The video processing on the F8500 is clearly superior to the Panasonic especially when it comes to 24fps material from Blu-ray. The panel is also capable of being fully 50% brighter than the Panasonic VT50 series making it capable of a really compelling Day mode setting for viewing in high ambient light conditions.
Quote:
Also on tap in the F8500 is 96Hz processing for handling 24fps material from Blu-ray movie discs, and it works very well. In fact, this is an area where the Samsung F8500 series handily outperforms the Panasonic VT50 series as it appears the Panasonic first takes the signal to 60Hz inserting 2:3 pull-down before then converting the signal to 96Hz.
Context is everything.

Very poor form, AlaskanGuy, that you have to misrepresent such information by removing context to try to make your chosen panel look superior. Try actually sticking more to the facts next time and less to the fanboyism.
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post #2798 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 10:08 AM
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Is the f8500 the best when it comes to 3D?

Are there going to be any 4K 3D sets produced in 2014?

How about a 3D shootout between the F8500 and 4K LCD that sucks?

Do you think we'll ever see that?
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post #2799 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Actually, it was the 2012 model comparison when he compared the F8500 with the VT50 because the 2013 panels hadn't even been released yet: TweakTV F8500 Review.

In 2011, Kevin Miller also said very similar about the VT30 model, as well.

But, yes, context is everything. Maybe we can start comparing the VT60/ZT60 to 2011 Samsung plasma. lol

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post #2800 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 10:30 AM
 
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Lots of hate towards the Samsung..if it beats a VT50 even though last years model, it seems to be a pretty reputable and good comparison because a lot of people loved the VT50.

So the 8500 may not be ZT level but if certainly doesn't seem to be that far behind especially if it beats the Reference of a VT50.
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post #2801 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 10:33 AM
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The hate is not towards the samsung, it is towards the people that are misrepresenting what it is and what it is not by twisting the facts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

At the next shootout will we get to see the superiority of a plasma set or will we be force fed only LCD samples because that is what the industry wants to sell?


I received word from Robert at Value Electronics of his current plan for this years Value Electronics Shootout:.

This year's shootout will be held over two days.

One wall will be all flagship 1080P displays, the other wall flagship UHD displays.

First day of shootout, they will speak to both and compare just the 1080Ps to each other, and at conclusion, announce a 1080P winner.

Second day, they will compare just the UHDs to each other, and then at conclusion, announce a UHD winner.

Following the announcement of the UHD winner on the second day, they will butt the 1080P and UHD winner next to each other on the same wall, and proceed to compare them them directly with each other using patterns and content, and pick an overall winner.

Should be a good one.

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My concern about the F8500 is some of the things Chad has been finding. Not sure if that is just certain builds and/or firmwares or what - but that would be a concern to me.

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Don't take it personal Elmorage. It's just TV.

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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Don't take it personal Elmorage. It's just TV.

I don't, and I don't need to feel like I have the "best" tv. Just because I bought a VT60 doesn't mean I don't appreciate the 8500, I talked my dad into buying one 2 weeks ago. It just gets tiring hearing so much BS thrown around on what should be a source for trusted, reliable information.
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Lots of hate towards the Samsung..if it beats a VT50 even though last years model, it seems to be a pretty reputable and good comparison because a lot of people loved the VT50.

So the 8500 may not be ZT level but if certainly doesn't seem to be that far behind especially if it beats the Reference of a VT50.
Whoosh.
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What is Chad B finding now with the 8500?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Lots of hate towards the Samsung..if it beats a VT50 even though last years model, it seems to be a pretty reputable and good comparison because a lot of people loved the VT50.

So the 8500 may not be ZT level but if certainly doesn't seem to be that far behind especially if it beats the Reference of a VT50.

I'm curious, how deep are the F8500 blacks compared to the VT50?
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

What is Chad B finding now with the 8500?
^ do you really want your OCD to take over more than it already does? With your f8500 on the way just look at the tv and see if your happy. Don't worry about anything else. Just sayin. Your minor scratches on your zt only seen with a flashlight and not visible during content turned into significant scratches in your post in f8500 thread. I don't know if your coming or going as they saying goes.
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post #2810 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

I'm curious, how deep are the F8500 blacks compared to the VT50?

From CNet's review of the 8500:

Black level: The F8500 can produce some of the deepest levels of black of any display I've seen, beating the depth of all but the very best plasmas and local dimming LEDs. In our lineup, which includes the best flat-panel TVs we have available (and, I'd argue, most of the best ever made), it looked just a shade lighter than only the VT60, the Kuro, and the Elite in most dark and mixed scenes. In the very dark "Drive" Blu-ray, for example, the depth of the F8500's letterbox bars and black areas like Driver's car stereo and leather gloves (4:12) was superb. Even sitting right between the Kuro and the VT60, the F8500 looked almost as deep -- and made the VT50, ST60, and especially the E8000 seem slightly grayish as opposed to inky black.

In short, it would definitely be better than the VT50, but from what I have seen and read around AVS, the larger ST60 models have roughly the same black level as the 8500.
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post #2811 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

My concern about the F8500 is some of the things Chad has been finding. Not sure if that is just certain builds and/or firmwares or what - but that would be a concern to me.

Can you elaborate on this comment or point me to the information you're alluding to?


I own a Panasonic 50PX50U a Pioneer PRO-150FD and a Samsung 64F8500

Arguably not one of these PDPs is the king of the hill but IMO each panel renders an image that is pleasing to me and the black level performance between one panel or another is negligible at best.

I suppose if I placed each panel side-by-side I might see a more significant difference but who views TV like that?

My 64F8500 has an 11/13 build date w/firmware version 1114.

I updated the PDP's firmware version to 1119 last night w/o problem.

The 3D feature works as advertised and is rather nifty but I doubt I will have much of an opportunity to use it. I watched some of Prometheus in 3D w/HBO on demand last night.

My panel does not buzz.

If you're not married to Panasonic and in the market for a new PDP the F8500 may be a good alternative worth considering.
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post #2812 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

From CNet's review of the 8500:

Black level: The F8500 can produce some of the deepest levels of black of any display I've seen, beating the depth of all but the very best plasmas and local dimming LEDs. In our lineup, which includes the best flat-panel TVs we have available (and, I'd argue, most of the best ever made), it looked just a shade lighter than only the VT60, the Kuro, and the Elite in most dark and mixed scenes. In the very dark "Drive" Blu-ray, for example, the depth of the F8500's letterbox bars and black areas like Driver's car stereo and leather gloves (4:12) was superb. Even sitting right between the Kuro and the VT60, the F8500 looked almost as deep -- and made the VT50, ST60, and especially the E8000 seem slightly grayish as opposed to inky black.

In short, it would definitely be better than the VT50, but from what I have seen and read around AVS, the larger ST60 models have roughly the same black level as the 8500.

Shame. Maybe I should have went for the ST60 but I read so many good reviews about the VT50 as well as it's CMS. Call me odd but the only thing I didn't quite like the look of from the ST60 was the way the bezel and screen has a ridge like LCD's.

Though, I know this is from 2012 but I thought it was odd if they're implying it was somewhat grey-ish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avforums.com 
So, how does 2500 FFD perform? Let’s start with the REALLY good. Black levels are simply insane and by far the largest deciding factor on how they’ll look in your home will be the ambient lighting conditions of your room. The black is so deep, in fact, we couldn’t get anything like a reliable accurate reading with a full black pattern on screen but we did manage to measure it at 0.0095 cd/m2 on an ANSI checkerboard pattern. We don’t necessarily even trust that measurement, however, but what we do trust is our eyes and, in a blackened out room side by side with a 2010 Panasonic plasma, it absolutely wiped the floor with its predecessor. Are we saying their up with the best of the Kuro’s? Probably not quite on full screen black patterns but the dynamic range is up there with them and you’d need to be in the proverbial bat-cave room to pick them apart.

That and the fact I can't find any VT60's in the UK.
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post #2813 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 11:20 AM
 
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I guess chad is finding lower light output and higher MLL levels...that means lower brightness and brighter blacks. "Rising
Blacks!!" Looks like Sammy took a two year old page from Panny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Shame. Maybe I should have went for the ST60 but I read so many good reviews about the VT50 as well as it's CMS. Call me odd but the only thing I didn't quite like the look of from the ST60 was the way the bezel and screen has a ridge like LCD's.

Though, I know this is from 2012 but I thought it was odd if they're implying it was somewhat grey-ish.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the VT50. After reading the reviews of the ST60 and VT50 my impression was that the VT50 was still a bit better.
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Eric,

You're generalizing the consensus of those who attended the shootout and voted for the Samsung, by one attendees feelings?

I was in attendance as well, and we didn't sit 20ft away, perhaps Gene did. I was in the second row, directly in front of the Kuro, Samsung and Panasonic. The audience was filed with industry professionals and videophiles who were well aware of what a quality display does and should look like.

The shootout was very thorough, where test patterns and content were used to put the displays through their paces and to critique one against the other. Company reps and the calibrators went over the pros and cons of each display.

The audience over 2 days ranked the Samsung number one. The three professional calibrators ranked the Panasonic over the Samsung because of their viewing habits, and even still, by the slimmest of margins. I think D-Nice himself said he ranked the Panasonic as 100 and the Samsung 99.

Both displays are excellent. It all comes down to preference.
Why is it when you guys say that Samsung won the people vote it ends there but when you say the pro's picked the Panasonic you always have to follow it up with blabber? How about the pro's actually picked the Panasonic over the Samsung, PERIOD.

What about Sound & Vision naming the ZT60 the #1 TV of the year? How about HDGURU naming the ZT60 ahead of the F8500. Do these picks not count? You are telling me we should only trust the voice from a bunch of people that are squeezed into a room for 2 days to judge a TV with a bunch of crap thrown it all sitting at different viewing angles within the room? Why should anyone weigh their choice on that pick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmorage View Post

People love to manipulate the shootout results but the facts are undeniable when looking at the scorecards. The samsung side always points out that the experts only chose the panasonics by a slim .1 margin which is true. What they always leave out is that the margin was only so small because of a big win in the day mode category. Every other category was won by the panasonic, in some cases by a significant amount like .4 or .7. Enjoy your day mode, and I will enjoy my black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, moving resolution, and video quality.

As it has been said many times before, if brightness was the most important aspect of PQ we would all be in the LED forums. The 8500 is a great set, but being great with high ambient light does not make it the number one display when it lags behind in every other component that was evaluated.
Winner winner, chicken dinner!

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Originally Posted by elmorage View Post

The hate is not towards the samsung, it is towards the people that are misrepresenting what it is and what it is not by twisting the facts.
No one actually has a problem with the Samsung here is right. It is just that for some reason there are to many lies spread here from Samsung owners or they only pick one story that make the Samsung sound like a better choice but disregard the other 10 stories that put the Panasonic first. They throw 1 million excuses toward the positive Panasonic reviews and then just claim the F8500 won the people's vote at the Shootout. Sorry, that one claim to fame does not trump every other review and win for the Panny.
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Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Shame. Maybe I should have went for the ST60 but I read so many good reviews about the VT50 as well as it's CMS. Call me odd but the only thing I didn't quite like the look of from the ST60 was the way the bezel and screen has a ridge like LCD's.

Though, I know this is from 2012 but I thought it was odd if they're implying it was somewhat grey-ish.
That and the fact I can't find any VT60's in the UK.

The VT50 is an excellent display. I have The VT in the bedroom and the ZT in the living room . The picture on the VT50 will still rival most current tv`s out right now
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Does it really matter at this point since the 8500 is the only plasma left worth noting?
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Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Heh, Tin Cup was such a classic funny film.
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Does it really matter at this point since the 8500 is the only plasma left worth noting?
I guess it only matters in this thread because it is the F8500 or ZT60 thread. Any other comparison's would be off topic. lol
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post #2820 of 3105 Old 03-14-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

I guess chad is finding lower light output and higher MLL levels...that means lower brightness and brighter blacks. "Rising
Blacks!!" Looks like Sammy took a two year old page from Panny

Can this be attributed to a different firmware version? I have read some posts regarding the black optimizer causing floating blacks but don't see any information about rising black issues related the F8500.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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