F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 97 - AVS Forum
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post #2881 of 3105 Old 03-15-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

So your panel doesn't buzz which means it is not a problem with the F8500? Well, that are lots of people who have ZT60 without fan noise so I guess you can then consider it a non issue for the ZT60 based on your theory. Again, for people that do have an issue with the fan noise, Panasonic is fixing it so please explain how and why you would even bring this up anymore?

Do you actually read your posts before committing them to this Forum? The only thing I said is my panel doesn't buzz. You're reading way too much into my posts. Please refrain from making suppositions regarding the meaning & intent of what I've said, unless you can quote something I have posted that disregards another individual's experience.

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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

How many FW updates has Samsung released for the F8500 to try and fix things? Does software bugs in Samsungs not count as issues or are you just blind to see any issues with the F8500?

What does this matter? It's a good thing for F8500 owners that Samsung is willing to fix issues that affect their products.

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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Your posts are starting to sound desperate and amusing now. What are you going to throw out their next, that you need to watch the ZT60 in a cave? rolleyes.gif

confused.gif

I have no idea what you're talking about, but you do have a "vivid" imagination.

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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Here is a post of yours I found pretty amusing:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/10410#post_24374441

Specifically number 5:
5) Is there and difference regarding the incidence for a severe panel buzz between the 51" and 64" F8500's?

Why would you question the panel buzz of the F8500 if it did not appear to be an issue with this TV? eek.gif

F8500 owners would make great politicians. lol

If bashing another individual's legitimate concerns makes you feel better about yourself then be my guest. I get it, you're doing your best to validate your purchase decision but every time I see an image like this:



I'm glad I took a pass on the ZT60.
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post #2882 of 3105 Old 03-15-2014, 05:11 PM
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And I saw a picture of someone watching their 8500 with noise canceling headphones because of the buzz rolleyes.gif

That was the stupidest idea I have seen yet for fan noise - no I take that back it was toilet plungers. Let's try to get past the issues a few owners are having with fan noise or buzzing. David has made a good point about pro calibration - it does seem to be more prevalent with VT/ZT owners - I guess we are a little more demanding, must be a vamp trait smile.gif
It will be interesting to read Chad's post in a day about both displays and how they calibrate.
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post #2883 of 3105 Old 03-15-2014, 05:37 PM
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And just to be accurate that's a picture of a VT60 - note the pop up camera at the top midpoint - the ZT60 does not have that feature.

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post #2884 of 3105 Old 03-15-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I am just stating the obvious. I dare you to ask any professional calibrator how many 2013 Panasonics they've calibrated compared to F8500s. There will be no comparison in the ratios. Have you ever thought why that might be the case?

A lot of people who buy Panasonics don't need the light output of the F8500 because they view in a light controlled room which is the ONLY way to do serious viewing. Have you ever tried to watch something at 50-60ftl in a completely dark room?

Yes, if I did mostly bright room viewing, I would have selected an F8500. Absolutely. It's also notably better with reflections compared to the VT60.

As far as the blacks, as I have said a million times having both a VT60 and F8500 side by side in my living room for a week - they are noticeably better on the VT60 and they hold much better with content (i.e. no floating) which is one reason why the VT60 has a FAR better ansi contrast ratio compared to the F8500. I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head, but I believe the VT60 has something like a 200-400% better ansi contrast ratio. Again, I am talking DARK room viewing here. If you view with the sun directly hitting the display like a lot of F8500 and LED owners seemingly do, you will not see the differences nor the black floating.

I have no preference of Samsung vs Panasonic as far as brands - or any brand for that matter. I now own a JVC front projector and have a Vizio LCD in my home office. My brother and friend bought the Samsung 51" F5300 last year because of my advice as it was the best display for the money at that point in time.

I don't know what percentage of F8500 owners compared to Panasonic owners have their TVs professionally calibrated but I'll take your word the anecdotal evidence suggests a higher percentage of Panasonic owners do.

You're making assumptions of F8500 owners I'm frankly not comfortable with as it's very difficult to quantify such assumptions.

See the link in my sig for calibration reviews. It's organized by calibrator and display type. At the least it will give you info wrt avs users.
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post #2885 of 3105 Old 03-15-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I'm actually excited about the death of plasma when OLED takes the reigns, so that these tedious exchanges will become a laughable footnote in history.

I wouldn't say I'm excited but with news that there won't be a H7000 I'm ready to move on also but in the near future I'm hopeful some of the upcoming FALD televisions can give us a passable alternative to plasmas in terms of PQ.

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post #2886 of 3105 Old 03-17-2014, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

And just to be accurate that's a picture of a VT60 - note the pop up camera at the top midpoint - the ZT60 does not have that feature.

He actualy never claimed it to be a ZT60, just that he was glad he didn't go with a ZT60 when he saw images like that. Well, it's his decision, lets accept that and carry on.
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post #2887 of 3105 Old 03-17-2014, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Rising blacks on Samsung now?? Jesus when will this crap end. Pioneer please come back and show these people how it's done

If someone decides to buy whats left of the Pioneer plasma division, let's hope they dont't do as Panasonic and only let the people working with finance be allowed entry biggrin.gif

No, seriously, OLED is the future, I guess we have to start accepting that neither of the F8505, VT60 or ZT60 is the best tv on the market anymore.
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post #2888 of 3105 Old 03-21-2014, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

As for your Brightness Claim this is from a posting by D-Nice the #1 Calibrator when it comes to the Panny's: Posted 6-9-13
"I'm at Robert's right now doing VT60 calibrations. The lowest I've measured is 0.0012fL.BTW, the brightest VT60 I've measured in ISF-Day is the current one I'm working on.....40fL. Everything else has been 35-36fL. The goal of Day mode was to have the max light output, without sacrificing accuracy, and a 2.0 gamma. The VT and ZT could not do it in their ISF modes. THX Bright Room can get brighter than the ISF modes. However, the loss in accuracy violates my accuracy work eihics.... and I'm sorry but even THX Bright Room isn't match for the F8500 when it comes to image brightness"

So even with 40ft/L you still can't reach the FULL ON/OFF CONTRAST of the F8500 on the VT.....where did Chad get his 52fl reading from Dynamic mode which you can't even get close to the low black with or maintain accuracy?


Also since last year Samsung provided a FirmWare Update 1112.1 that fixed the Floating Blacks bug so that's old news that was already corrected, Meanwhile the VT & ZT both lack Full-3D @1080, because they only scan half the lines making it normally around 540, and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...

Not to mention who Won the 2013 Value Electronics Shootout for the HDTV of the Year (Samsung F8500)

The Experts liked the Panasonics more by .1 overall, but even after telling the Audience all about where the Panny's shined and were a hair better with measurements the Audience still decided that the Sammy looked the best by .2 overall thus giving it the win!

So in the real world when you put the numbers aside and just look at the sets it was obvious that the Samsung was a better looking HDTV. That's why the Panny guys always get mad because although its better technically in everything by a hair except for brightness it still looses the Human Eye Test.

Which is ironically hilarious I think, afterall I watch with my Eyes not some special Calibration Tool.



I agree the Brightness output of the F8500 being able to go twice as bright and the
virtually identical Black Levels makes the Samsung much more appealing to the Eye.
I've seen them both many times and I like the Panasonics VT & ZT if you can even find
one for sale. But the Samsung F8500 looks more appealing especially when you
watch your TV in the Day and the Night. I don't want a TV that I can only watch in a
cave or under strict light controls.

It's no wonder it got 2013 Value Electronics HDTV of the Year, and now it's being continued
thru 2014. So the support for Firmware Upgrades along with the Evolution Kit that
upgrades the Hardware is unmatched for customer support. If I did get a Panasonic
I know their company is on the Verge of Bankruptcy and that means that after chopping
their Plasma Lineup that the FW Updates won't be funded and supported like the Samsung owners are.

This is a no brainer just buy a Samsung F8500 it's an awesome HDTV. I think i'm going to go
do just that as soon as I get the money for a 64".
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post #2889 of 3105 Old 03-21-2014, 07:31 PM
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^
The stats quoted above are not accurate now. The Alaska guy selectively posted data. It doesn't matter since the Panny is no longer available, you have only one choice mad.gif

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post #2890 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj32581 View Post

I agree the Brightness output of the F8500 being able to go twice as bright and the
virtually identical Black Levels makes the Samsung much more appealing to the Eye.
I've seen them both many times and I like the Panasonics VT & ZT if you can even find
one for sale. But the Samsung F8500 looks more appealing especially when you
watch your TV in the Day and the Night. I don't want a TV that I can only watch in a
cave or under strict light controls.

It's no wonder it got 2013 Value Electronics HDTV of the Year, and now it's being continued
thru 2014. So the support for Firmware Upgrades along with the Evolution Kit that
upgrades the Hardware is unmatched for customer support. If I did get a Panasonic
I know their company is on the Verge of Bankruptcy and that means that after chopping
their Plasma Lineup that the FW Updates won't be funded and supported like the Samsung owners are.

This is a no brainer just buy a Samsung F8500 it's an awesome HDTV. I think i'm going to go
do just that as soon as I get the money for a 64".
After 2014 they won't be f8500 either.
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post #2891 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

As for your Brightness Claim this is from a posting by D-Nice the #1 Calibrator when it comes to the Panny's: Posted 6-9-13
"I'm at Robert's right now doing VT60 calibrations. The lowest I've measured is 0.0012fL.BTW, the brightest VT60 I've measured in ISF-Day is the current one I'm working on.....40fL. Everything else has been 35-36fL. The goal of Day mode was to have the max light output, without sacrificing accuracy, and a 2.0 gamma. The VT and ZT could not do it in their ISF modes. THX Bright Room can get brighter than the ISF modes. However, the loss in accuracy violates my accuracy work eihics.... and I'm sorry but even THX Bright Room isn't match for the F8500 when it comes to image brightness"

So even with 40ft/L you still can't reach the FULL ON/OFF CONTRAST of the F8500 on the VT.....where did Chad get his 52fl reading from Dynamic mode which you can't even get close to the low black with or maintain accuracy?


Also since last year Samsung provided a FirmWare Update 1112.1 that fixed the Floating Blacks bug so that's old news that was already corrected, Meanwhile the VT & ZT both lack Full-3D @1080, because they only scan half the lines making it normally around 540, and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...

Not to mention who Won the 2013 Value Electronics Shootout for the HDTV of the Year (Samsung F8500)

The Experts liked the Panasonics more by .1 overall, but even after telling the Audience all about where the Panny's shined and were a hair better with measurements the Audience still decided that the Sammy looked the best by .2 overall thus giving it the win!

So in the real world when you put the numbers aside and just look at the sets it was obvious that the Samsung was a better looking HDTV. That's why the Panny guys always get mad because although its better technically in everything by a hair except for brightness it still looses the Human Eye Test.

Which is ironically hilarious I think, afterall I watch with my Eyes not some special Calibration Tool.


omg.well said post this in f8500 thread would love it..I do love pannyz I also own sammy...bring on oled

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post #2892 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Denniswrly View Post

omg.well said post this in f8500 thread would love it..I do love pannyz I also own sammy...bring on oled
The original post by Alaskan AV guy is not well said, because I do not use Dynamic mode, and black levels (and overall accuracy) are not sacrificed using my panel brightness high method to eliminate white crush. The only downside is a slight increase in dither which is only visible up close in dark environments, neither of which will happen when viewing a Day mode at normal distance. Please don't contribute to and spread this false information.

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post #2893 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Denniswrly View Post

omg.well said post this in f8500 thread would love it..I do love pannyz I also own sammy...bring on oled

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post #2894 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The original post by Alaskan AV guy is not well said, because I do not use Dynamic mode, and black levels (and overall accuracy) are not sacrificed using my panel brightness high method to eliminate white crush. The only downside is a slight increase in dither which is only visible up close in dark environments, neither of which will happen when viewing a Day mode at normal distance. Please don't contribute to and spread this false information.

Well I guess that answers that!
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I'm going to quote it again in the vain hope that it eventually sinks in.

Wait so Chab B. Specially told this guy he was wrong in his assumptions of Chads calibrations..and he still doesn't get it?! Hope is lost Vinnie. They are just mad they have an inferior set and that we are on KURO levels now. Enjoy your 8500 I'll enjoy my reference set.
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post #2896 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Wow you are seriously misinformed. The ZT60 beats your 8500 in every category except for brightness. Go buy an LCD if you want brightness..also your brightness level is now affecting calibrations and the TVs long term reliability. Therefore why Samsung released twenty firmware and now the last one restricts your brightness level. Numbers don't lie, your eyes can though. And I don't think your buying a ZT60 which was originally the same price as your 64" 8500 by working at TGI Fridays. Making judgements about what people do for a living is something that should be left out of a thread as well as personal attacks. When it comes down to it if a pro tells me a ZT is better then guess what's a better? A ZT not your 8500...which can't een do correct film cadence and has worse color than the ZT series. We have everything but brightness which for me is a none issue. The filter does a fantastic job during the day and there's plenty of modes to be had. Also calibrators can take the brightness of VT60 and a ZT60 higher without compromising PQ or longevity of the set unlike your 8500.

Your human eye test is great in all...there's 65" 4K that look fantastic at best buy to my "eye" but when put to the test the ZT still beats those. And btw your Samsungs are now getting a fix as well to help with your directional abnormal buzz which is not typical plasma buzz but a defect within the TV causing high buzzing sounds in the center of your vision. Zt60 maintains everything perfectly without having to sacrifice black levels, unlike your 8500 that in order to do proper cadences you have to sacrifice black level. Samsungs reliability level is terrible, they use cheap capacitors in their sets, so have fun replacing it in a year. So basically if you bash the ZT60 you must bash the Pioneer KURO as well because they are now equal. (Not a modified or tweaked KURO but a 111fd or 5020 is matched and slightly exceeded by the ZT60.)
These forums are filled with statements backed by facts and numbers, which speak louder than your "eye" test which can only perceive so much. Any expert will tell you that the 8500 is inferior to the ZT60...period

Sweet Jesus, yes the ZT60 has been unfairly criticized but how are you any better with your critique? The pros will tell you these are both great TVs that come down to personal preferences. That's the message that came through loud and clear from the 2013 HDTV shootout. Period!

There must be something wrong with my E7000 since it's been well over a year and I have had no issues.
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post #2897 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Do you mean the size of the measurement window or the APL percentage (background intensity surrounding the window)? In a couple days I'm going to be doing an F8500 and a Panny in the same house, and I hope to do some extensive testing and comparison. Today I didn't do anything beyond the normal calibration.

Hey Chad,

Have you had a chance to do your comparisons and if so what are the results? Thanks!

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post #2898 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 02:44 PM
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Sweet Jesus, yes the ZT60 has been unfairly criticized but how are you any better with your critique? The pros will tell you these are both great TVs that come down to personal preferences. That's the message that came through loud and clear from the 2013 HDTV shootout. Period!

There must be something wrong with my E7000 since it's been well over a year and I have had no issues.
Since when has the shootout been the end all, say all anyway. That is the only place that put an F8500 ahead of a ZT60 and it was because of the huge brightness score difference and that's it. And sorry, a bunch of people squeezed in a room at different distances watching some benchmark videos is a far cry from really judging a panel.

I don't really care which panel is better but the people's shoot out result should definitely be taken with a grain of salt.

I owned an E7000 by the way. I thought it had a fantastic picture and if not for the IR it had and getting replaced from BB I would still own that TV as well. It was a floor model which obviously caused the IR but I was more then happy with that panel.
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

using my panel brightness high method to eliminate white crush. The only downside is a slight increase in dither which is only visible up close in dark environments

another top secret method that no one else knows about!
amazing! smile.gif

so no other ZT60 user except Chad B knows how to boost brightness without clipping the whites right?

any raise in ABL would bring more brightness to the ZT60 without clipping the whites.
thats what this method sounds like to me.
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post #2900 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 03:29 PM
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Yes, top secret... In order to know it you must be a THX certified video calibrator, or own a meter and PM me... rolleyes.gif

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post #2901 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

another top secret method that no one else knows about!
amazing! smile.gif

so no other ZT60 user except Chad B knows how to boost brightness without clipping the whites right?

any raise in ABL would bring more brightness to the ZT60 without clipping the whites.
thats what this method sounds like to me.
Actually Chad has shared his method with DIY calibrators here and has also posted the process in THX Video Tech forum if you are certified and have access there which I assure you don't.

Why anyone here would be questioning a pro calibrator like Chad is way beyond me. I do question why someone like you would join a site like this. You obviously have no interest in hearing what the professionals say and some of you are really disrespectful to the pro's here who have proven track records of success in their field.

It is a real embarrassment. You should also try reading all of Chad's posts before assuming anything because we all know what assume stands for and in this case you have proven it.

It's also funny how Sammy fanboys question Chad's calibrating techniques but take the word of the audience at the shootout. That's pretty amusing.

Chad also said the last F8500 he calibrated equaled that of the first one he did. Do you see Panasonic owners questioning his calibration and what he was able to achieve on that panel?
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post #2902 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 03:47 PM
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I am really happy, as a plasma fan, that the F8500 will be continued into 2014.

However, this Panasonic trashing is absolute garbage. Everyone who has read any review knows that both TVs are excellent. There may be reasons to pick one over the other but let's get real. I've read some BS that would make you think that the F8500 is the first and only Plasma TV to ever be viable in a room that sees light. No TV is perfect as HDTV is not as exciting to the general public as it is to people on this forum. Both the Panasonic and Samsung are pretty damn good for the money. I have a ZT and I may consider a 51F8500 later in the summer.

OLEDs are not all that bright either, if comparing to an LED, but their contrast is amazing. However because they are new we pretend they have zero drawbacks.

It is simple physics that anything that outputs light is affected by other ambient light. Anything that outputs sound would be affected by other ambient noise in the room. Every TV looks better in a dark room, and everything sounds better with better room treatment.
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Since when has the shootout been the end all, say all anyway. That is the only place that put an F8500 ahead of a ZT60 and it was because of the huge brightness score difference and that's it. And sorry, a bunch of people squeezed in a room at different distances watching some benchmark videos is a far cry from really judging a panel.

I don't really care which panel is better but the people's shoot out result should definitely be taken with a grain of salt.

I owned an E7000 by the way. I thought it had a fantastic picture and if not for the IR it had and getting replaced from BB I would still own that TV as well. It was a floor model which obviously caused the IR but I was more then happy with that panel.

Yeah, I guess those people were chained to their seats and weren't able to move around. wink.gif No, the Shootout is not the end all of critiquing televisions but it's the best comparison that I know of where industry insiders are gathered in one place and where all the televisions are calibrated by highly regarded calibrators. I strongly disagree the people's vote should be taken with a grain of salt considering the credentials of those people and I find it very unlikely they didn't walk up to each of these televisions before they voted. In any event they essentially voted the same way as the calibrators, the point being both groups thought the difference in overall performance between these two great TVs were small and it comes down to personal preferences.

To be honest I think the better TV is the ZT60 but I think I would personally prefer the F8500 in terms of PQ. But if you were to put a gun to my head I would choose the ZT60 over the F8500 because it's a no nonsense TV without the interaction crap and a base that would fit on my Amish built TV stand. I'll never know for sure, but if I knew Samsung wasn't going to come out with a 7 series version of the F8500 I may have snatched up a ZT60 when it could be had for $2800. As it is I'm hopeful the Vizio P series will be a good performer. Yes, I'm perhaps foolishly expecting a LCD TV to be a good performer despite being disappointed with everyone I've tried.

I had IR on my E7000 also because I stupidly paused the television too long on a baseball game but now it's just so slightly noticeable (Fox Sports logo) on a bright mono screen. The best cure of all I tried was just the passage of time and usage.

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Here is my take.

1. I have yet to see a HDTV review outlet that picks F8500 as the best plasma/HDTV of 2013. In contrast, I have seen a few HDTV review outlets such as CNET and Sound and Vision that pick ZT60 as the best HDTV/Plasma of 2013.

2. ZT60 has superior black level, contrast, shadow detail, and color accuracy according to reviews.

3. According to experts, ZT60 has won VE Shootout due to its superior black level, contrast, color accuracy, and motion resolution. I personally do not consider VE Shootout audience results as useful metric.

4. ZT60's bright room performance is more than adequate. ZT60's filter works extremely well to preserve blacks and fight reflections. Therefore, the set does not need to be very bright to look good in bright room. In addition, Chad discovered a method to accurately calibrate ZT60s with panel brightness set to High. As I recall, he can hit 45-55 FL on ZT60 with his method, so higher light output is achievable if one desires.

5. SOME of F8500s can hit above 80 FL, but such high light output is not needed in normal viewing conditions.

6. SOME of F8500s can only hit around 55 FL right now, so their maximum light output is not much different from ZT60.
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OLEDs are not all that bright either, if comparing to an LED, but their contrast is amazing. However because they are new we pretend they have zero drawbacks.
Anyone who's being honest isn't pretending, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons concerning PQ. OLEDs are nearly as bright as LCD actually. The newfangled Dolby Vision LCDs on the other hand have hit a new brightness record (in prototype form anyway).
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Anyone who's being honest isn't pretending, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons concerning PQ. OLEDs are nearly as bright as LCD actually. The newfangled Dolby Vision LCDs on the other hand have hit a new brightness record (in prototype form anyway).

I dont care a single bit about TV max brightness. I love the picture quality of OLEDs as well as the VT/ZT and F8500. I just think certain outlandish claims about the two plasma sets in this thread are terrible.

The ZT isnt really available anymore but it was an excellent TV! its not "too dim" unless you are LCD fan.

It is uncommon that someone owns both sets or has tried both in their home. Theres a lot of folks making tons of noise simply because they are fanboy, not because they actually know the performance differences.

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Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

Here is my take.

1. I have yet to see a HDTV review outlet that picks F8500 as the best plasma/HDTV of 2013. In contrast, I have seen a few HDTV review outlets such as CNET and Sound and Vision that pick ZT60 as the best HDTV/Plasma of 2013.

2. ZT60 has superior black level, contrast, shadow detail, and color accuracy according to reviews.

3. According to experts, ZT60 has won VE Shootout due to its superior black level, contrast, color accuracy, and motion resolution. I personally do not consider VE Shootout audience results as useful metric.

4. ZT60's bright room performance is more than adequate. ZT60's filter works extremely well to preserve blacks and fight reflections. Therefore, the set does not need to be very bright to look good in bright room. In addition, Chad discovered a method to accurately calibrate ZT60s with panel brightness set to High. As I recall, he can hit 45-55 FL on ZT60 with his method, so higher light output is achievable if one desires.

5. SOME of F8500s can hit above 80 FL, but such high light output is not needed in normal viewing conditions.

6. SOME of F8500s can only hit around 55 FL right now, so their maximum light output is not much different from ZT60.

1. Point taken

2. Point taken but I suspect you're not able to notice the better color accuracy of the ZT60, shadow detail however is probably noticeable in most viewing conditions. The difference in black levels are inconsequential IMO but they're more consistent and less crushing on the ZT60 from what I've read.

3. The audience vote is comprised of industry insiders and professional reviewers. The expert vote is comprised of Kevin Miller, Dewane Davis, and David McKenzie. Ty Pendlebury and David Katzmaier were both part of the audience. Rob Sabin, editor of Sound and Vision and before that the editor for Home Theater Magazine, was also part of the audience. Regardless of how much weight one gives to the VE Shootout it borders on absurdity IMO to use the audience vote as an arguement for the F8500 or to use the expert vote as argument for the ZT60 given the narrowness of the vote from both groups.

4. The F8500 has brighter whites

5. The F8500 has brighter whites

6. The F8500 has brighter whites

Perhaps I am a fan of LCD televisions (I just wish they liked me) because I don't like the dirty whites of my E7000 though it kills any LCD I've seen in overall PQ. And since I also watch a lot of older content I think I would like the F8500 panel better (David McKenzie pointed out the F8500 has better PQ with SD sources).

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post #2908 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 07:41 PM
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Anyone who's being honest isn't pretending, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons concerning PQ. OLEDs are nearly as bright as LCD actually. The newfangled Dolby Vision LCDs on the other hand have hit a new brightness record (in prototype form anyway).

I heard from Robert Heron that a scene with the sun shining through the window on the Vizio R series looks like, well, the sun shining through the window. My gosh this TV really is blinding, you can literally go blind watching this TV in a home theater environment!
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post #2909 of 3105 Old 03-22-2014, 10:09 PM
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I heard from Robert Heron that a scene with the sun shining through the window on the Vizio R series looks like, well, the sun shining through the window. My gosh this TV really is blinding, you can literally go blind watching this TV in a home theater environment!
I am not quite sure how that is a good thing and why we would want to watch something that will make us turn our head away.

If I am watching a movie like gravity, I am not going to make my house freezing cold to feel like I am there so why do I want to watch a movie with the sun that is as bright as the sun.

Unless you are watching a first person view movie I don't see the point. The brightest we need TV's would be bright enough to see in the environment you are watching it in.

I am sure others will feel different.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftSweeper View Post

Here is my take.

1. I have yet to see a HDTV review outlet that picks F8500 as the best plasma/HDTV of 2013. In contrast, I have seen a few HDTV review outlets such as CNET and Sound and Vision that pick ZT60 as the best HDTV/Plasma of 2013.

2. ZT60 has superior black level, contrast, shadow detail, and color accuracy according to reviews.

3. According to experts, ZT60 has won VE Shootout due to its superior black level, contrast, color accuracy, and motion resolution. I personally do not consider VE Shootout audience results as useful metric.

4. ZT60's bright room performance is more than adequate. ZT60's filter works extremely well to preserve blacks and fight reflections. Therefore, the set does not need to be very bright to look good in bright room. In addition, Chad discovered a method to accurately calibrate ZT60s with panel brightness set to High. As I recall, he can hit 45-55 FL on ZT60 with his method, so higher light output is achievable if one desires.

5. SOME of F8500s can hit above 80 FL, but such high light output is not needed in normal viewing conditions.

6. SOME of F8500s can only hit around 55 FL right now, so their maximum light output is not much different from ZT60.

1. Point taken

2. Point taken but I suspect you're not able to notice the better color accuracy of the ZT60, shadow detail however is probably noticeable in most viewing conditions. The difference in black levels are inconsequential IMO but they're more consistent and less crushing on the ZT60 from what I've read.

3. The audience vote is comprised of industry insiders and professional reviewers. The expert vote is comprised of Kevin Miller, Dewane Davis, and David McKenzie. Ty Pendlebury and David Katzmaier were both part of the audience. Rob Sabin, editor of Sound and Vision and before that the editor for Home Theater Magazine, was also part of the audience. Regardless of how much weight one gives to the VE Shootout it borders on absurdity IMO to use the audience vote as an arguement for the F8500 or to use the expert vote as argument for the ZT60 given the narrowness of the vote from both groups.

4. The F8500 has brighter whites

5. The F8500 has brighter whites

6. The F8500 has brighter whites

Perhaps I am a fan of LCD televisions (I just wish they liked me) because I don't like the dirty whites of my E7000 though it kills any LCD I've seen in overall PQ. And since I also watch a lot of older content I think I would like the F8500 panel better (David McKenzie pointed out the F8500 has better PQ with SD sources).

Well, if you are going to say that superior black levels on ZT60 are inconsequential to you or that I will probably not notice ZT60 superior color accuracy, can I say the same about F8500 superior whites then? To my eyes, ZT60 whites look white (true story by the way), so therefore, F8500 brighter whites are inconsequential to me. Heck, I might not even notice the difference. My point is. Are we using the actual measurements/reviews, or are we using the subjective opinions and personal preferences to compare the displays? Obviously, it would make the displays impossible to compare if we use the latter.

I do not doubt that SOME of VE audience members were the industry insiders and reviewers who have qualifications to compare the displays. However, do we know who were the rest of the audience? Attending VE shootout event does not make a person qualified to compare the displays. Just as being an AV Science member does not make a person an expert on HDTVs. Furthermore, did not the audience members use their eyes only to evaluate the displays? How can this be a proper comparison without test patterns and measuring equipment?

In contrast, experts were ALL well known calibrators/tv reviewers who actually calibrated the displays using various patterns and measuring equipment. Hence, unlike the audience members, I can actually trust their results.

By the way, only reason that F8500 came close to ZT60 in experts vote was bright room performance. Just look at the scoreboard.
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