Panasonic ZT60 first review - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

The numbers...

GT60:
Black ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 93

VT60:
Black ~ .006 cdm
White ~ 68

F8500:
Black ~ .014 cdm
White ~ 109
(Black optimizer off)

ZT60:
Black: ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 53

European version of the ZT60 how is that valid ? They have had brightness caps in previous years

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

European version of the ZT60 how is that valid ? They have had brightness caps in previous years
Also, is that VT60 measure of the UK model? The only measurements I know of that have been taken were done by David McKenzie.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

European version of the ZT60 how is that valid ? They have had brightness caps in previous years

It's fixed this year...they have "Panel Brightness" low, medium and High. No more caps. But they have a more restringed energy consumption policies.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

The numbers...

GT60:
Black ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 93

VT60:
Black ~ .006 cdm
White ~ 68

F8500:
Black ~ .014 cdm
White ~ 109
(Black optimizer off)

ZT60:
Black: ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 53

Whites will still look white (yes I was the one who posted those numbers) since they are calibrated to meet a certain standard. Waht I believe the ANSi tests is the "peak" white\luminosity while also displaying blacks on teh same screen.....
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Also, is that VT60 measure of the UK model? The only measurements I know of that have been taken were done by David McKenzie.

Yes as far as I know those are all UK model measurements, not sure about the 8500 but thos numbers came directly from the review I think. Too early imo to make assumptions about the NA models always differences.

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agkss View Post

It's fixed this year...they have "Panel Brightness" low, medium and High. No more caps. But they have a more restringed energy consumption policies.

That's a step in the right direction anyway smile.gif

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

European version of the ZT60 how is that valid ? They have had brightness caps in previous years


All of those numbers are from the UK versions, as it ahs been discussed those are the only numebrs we have to go on right now in regards to the VT60/5 and the ZT60/5....Until we get NA reviews we wont know how they relate, if at all.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Also, is that VT60 measure of the UK model? The only measurements I know of that have been taken were done by David McKenzie.

Yes VT65 I should ahve changed that wink.gif was jsut doing a quick and dirty list....
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:10 PM
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Personally i trust more in David Mackenzie's numbers. AVForums has a little discrepancy between reviewers.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

All of those numbers are from the UK versions, as it ahs been discussed those are the only numebrs we have to go on right now in regards to the VT60/5 and the ZT60/5....Until we get NA reviews we wont know how they relate, if at all.....
Yes VT65 I should ahve changed that wink.gif was jsut doing a quick and dirty list....

I appreciate the info just disagree with Slickman that whites were compromised, good point there is a diff between white and peak white too different animals

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

The numbers...

GT60:
Black ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 93

VT60:
Black ~ .006 cdm
White ~ 68

F8500:
Black ~ .014 cdm
White ~ 109
(Black optimizer off)

ZT60:
Black: ~ .002 cdm
White ~ 53

Actually the white output figure shown for the ZT above isn't the true output but only when the panel was used in EBU mode, which sets it to a lower light output and crushes blacks, other THX and pro modes tested up to 92~94cd/m2 as per the review!
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Actually the white output figure shown for the ZT above isn't the true output but only when the panel was used in EBU mode, which sets it to a lower light output, other THX and pro modes tested up to 92~94cd/m2 as per the review!

Nice catch what exactly is EBU mode? Same as NA Standard mode ?

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Actually the white output figure shown for the ZT above isn't the true output but only when the panel was used in EBU mode, which sets it to a lower light output and crushes blacks, other THX and pro modes tested up to 92~94cd/m2 as per the review!

That is correct, but if I went with that all of the numbers would be different. I only took the numbers from the posted ANSI test.

The EBU was used for its uniformity, not sure why they wouldnt use the THX or other modes if they produced better values without any ill effects.....
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Nice catch what exactly is EBU mode equilivent to NA Standard mode ?

EBU is a new standard, it's a new one on me but from the review he states...

Quote "It also includes a number of preset viewing modes, one of which is exclusive to the P60ZT65 - ‘EBU Default’. This new mode is based on the EBU’s (European Broadcasting Union) guidelines for consumer flat panel displays. These guidelines are designed to ensure that displays produce “images that adequately reflect the creative values intended by their programme director.” We couldn’t agree more. To achieve this EBU certification, the P60ZT65 had to meet certain industry standards for luminance, black level, contrast, gamma, colour and frame rate presentation."

So I would presume the pro modes (not EBU) will be the same across the board.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

That is correct, but if I went with that all of the numbers would be different. I only took the numbers from the posted ANSI test.

The EBU was used for its uniformity, not sure why they wouldnt use the THX or other modes if they produced better values without any ill effects.....

From the review it just looks like they tried all modes to see how each one performed.

Why they just posted the checker pattern for only EBU mode, I don't know and is misleading.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Nice catch what exactly is EBU mode? Same as NA Standard mode ?

According to the review its used for uniformity and "studio monitor standards"......
Quote:
However blacks aren’t everything of course and we found that when it came to brightness the THX Cinema mode hit 94 cd/m2 and the Professional mode reached 92 cd/m2, whilst the EBU mode was only able to reach 56 cd/m2. We assume that the reason the EBU Default mode is less bright is because it uses studio monitor standards, which tend to place more emphasis on consistency rather than brightness when it comes to luminance. By comparison, the KURO measured at 97 cd/m2, which basically matches the P60ZT65, although the Professional mode could go brighter. We measured the Professional mode at 92 cd/m2 using the Mid Panel Luminance setting but if we used the High setting we could get up to 108 cd/m2. However in this setting the blacks were crushed, which again compromised shadow detail, so we would recommend using the Mid setting. Besides a brightness measurement of 94 cd/m2 is still excellent and with a black level of 0.001 cd/m2 that gives an absolutely incredible on/off contrast ratio of 94,000:1! When it came to the ANSI measurements we found that blacks remained superb, measuring between 0.002 and 0.003 cd/m2, but the brightness did drop off, measuring between 51 and 55 cd/m2. However the resulting ANSI contrast ratio was a superb 20,333:1 and this remarkable dynamic range was easy to see when watching actual content. Interestingly there was a similar drop off in brightness when measuring the ANSI numbers on the KURO and again, as a point of comparison, it produced an on/off contrast ratio of 48,500:1 and an ANSI contrast ratio of 16,676:1. It might have taken Panasonic four years but in the P60ZT65 they have finally produced a plasma that can lay to rest the ghost of KURO.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

EBU is a new standard, it's a new one on me but from the review he states...

Quote "It also includes a number of preset viewing modes, one of which is exclusive to the P60ZT65 - ‘EBU Default’. This new mode is based on the EBU’s (European Broadcasting Union) guidelines for consumer flat panel displays. These guidelines are designed to ensure that displays produce “images that adequately reflect the creative values intended by their programme director.” We couldn’t agree more. To achieve this EBU certification, the P60ZT65 had to meet certain industry standards for luminance, black level, contrast, gamma, colour and frame rate presentation."

So I would presume the pro modes (not EBU) will be the same across the board.

Interesting I glossed over that info thanks smile.gif

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:23 PM
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I went ahead and added the the checkerboard numbers up from the reviews and averaged them all out. I also added an adjusted F8500 measurement just based on Kevin's review which showed that the black level was 60% of what it was with black optimizer off (.005 to .003 FTL). So I multiplied their number by 60% to get a rough estimate of the Samsung with black optimizer on. I also threw in the THX Cinema mode white for the ZT60 as well.

GT60:
Black ~ .003375 cdm
White ~ 93.625 cdm

VT60:
Black ~ .007 cdm
White ~ 90.925 cdm

F8500:
Black ~ .014 cdm (Black Optimizer off)
White ~ 109.5 cdm
Adjusted Black with Optimizer on = 0.0084 cdm ANSI

ZT60:
Black: ~ .002625 cdm
White ~ 53.375 cdm
THX Cinema mode white ~ 94
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:25 PM
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i ask mark hodgkinson in another forum that (pic of ANSI Checkerboard)...Stephen Withers is come to florida...but they will update the review if they find other results.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

From the review it just looks like they tried all modes to see how each one performed.

There is a difference and they are going between ANSI and On\Off fluidly in the review:
Quote:
We measured the Professional mode at 92 cd/m2 using the Mid Panel Luminance setting but if we used the High setting we could get up to 108 cd/m2. However in this setting the blacks were crushed, which again compromised shadow detail, so we would recommend using the Mid setting. Besides a brightness measurement of 94 cd/m2 is still excellent and with a black level of 0.001 cd/m2 that gives an absolutely incredible on/off contrast ratio of 94,000:1! When it came to the ANSI measurements we found that blacks remained superb, measuring between 0.002 and 0.003 cd/m2, but the brightness did drop off, measuring between 51 and 55 cd/m2. However the resulting ANSI contrast ratio was a superb 20,333:1 and this remarkable dynamic range was easy to see when watching actual content

They dont say what mode it dropped off for only that it dropped off when ANSI was taken...
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:28 PM
 
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Next question would be what's the full screen black level in THX mode?
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Actually the white output figure shown for the ZT above isn't the true output but only when the panel was used in EBU mode, which sets it to a lower light output, other THX and pro modes tested up to 92~94cd/m2 as per the review!

Are we sure about that? Does it explicitly state in the review that EBU mode was used for the ANSI test?

I realize it does say that EBU mode is capped lower than other modes, so it's certainly worth asking whether that mode was used. But then, why use a mode with lower peak light output that crushes blacks?

Regarding EU power regs: the allowable wattage limits scale with panel size (in proportion to panel area). So a 60" panel is allowed to use 44% more power (1.44x) than a 50" panel (= (60/50)^2 ). In any case, the larger 65" VT had brighter whites in the ANSI test.

In case it helps, I will convert to fL. The ANSI whites for the ZT measured at 15.5 fL. So, 9-12 fL or so for a full field 100% stimulus white pattern?
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:37 PM
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So the ZT60 is roughly 0.0008 fL on the checkerboard pattern.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

There is a difference and they are going between ANSI and On\Off fluidly in the review:
They dont say what mode it dropped off for only that it dropped off when ANSI was taken...

Agree and so I have posted a question asking him to give more detail on this!
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Next question would be what's the full screen black level in THX mode?


Vinnie they said this in the review wink.gif
Quote:
we measured the black level on the P60ZT65 at 0.001 cd/m2 in all three primary viewing modes (THX Cinema, EBU and Professional)
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:43 PM
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Sounds great. Now I am really curious how the ZT and VT (and F8500) look next to each other properly calibrated....cannot wait until the Shootout to get impressions.

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post

Are we sure about that? Does it explicitly state in the review that EBU mode was used for the ANSI test?

I realize it does say that EBU mode is capped lower than other modes, so it's certainly worth asking whether that mode was used. But then, why use a mode with lower peak light output that crushes blacks?

I have asked for clarification, all we have is

Quote

"we found that when it came to brightness the THX Cinema mode hit 94 cd/m2 and the Professional mode reached 92 cd/m2, whilst the EBU mode was only able to reach 56 cd/m2. We assume that the reason the EBU Default mode is less bright is because it uses studio monitor standards, which tend to place more emphasis on consistency rather than brightness when it comes to luminance"

they don't specifically state which mode the ANSI test was taken but does look like EBU mode as the figures match.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Vinnie they said this in the review wink.gif
Thanks for weeding out the details for me. I am skimming a little *too* much (time constraints, bleh).
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

I have asked for clarification, all we have is

Quote

"we found that when it came to brightness the THX Cinema mode hit 94 cd/m2 and the Professional mode reached 92 cd/m2, whilst the EBU mode was only able to reach 56 cd/m2. We assume that the reason the EBU Default mode is less bright is because it uses studio monitor standards, which tend to place more emphasis on consistency rather than brightness when it comes to luminance"

they don't specifically state which mode the ANSI test was taken but does look like EBU mode as the figures match.
The ANSI ratio should surely increase in any other mode then.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The ANSI ratio should surely increase in any other mode then.

The on\off aka dynamic does yes, but the checkerboard is what people are asking about......
Quote:
Besides a brightness measurement of 94 cd/m2 is still excellent and with a black level of 0.001 cd/m2 that gives an absolutely incredible on/off contrast ratio of 94,000:1! When it came to the ANSI measurements we found that blacks remained superb, measuring between 0.002 and 0.003 cd/m2, but the brightness did drop off, measuring between 51 and 55 cd/m2. However the resulting ANSI contrast ratio was a superb 20,333:1 and this remarkable dynamic range was easy to see when watching actual content

No oe is saying that it isnt a great contrast ratio because it is, the ANSI white peak in the ANSI checkerboard though seems "off" at least to me when compared to the other sets.......


I guess I shouldnt have brought that up when I saw it wink.gif
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:58 PM
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