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post #181 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:16 PM
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post #182 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:19 PM
 
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haha. Riiiiight.

ANother problem is going to be current year's nutty "power saving" demands.
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post #183 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Here's a thought on the crushed blacks issue resulting from pumping up the ZT's brightness. Does it matter?

If you're raising the brightness, then presumably you're adjusting to a brighter room environment. If that's the case, would you even see this 'near black' information given the brighter room conditions?

So it may be that you can pump up the brightness with no real-world tradeoffs. Measured yes, but real world?


Its just perception, but I would think you could tell the difference between 9xcdm and 5xcdm I dont think its a matter of will it get bright enough since it can be calibrated to 120cdm and has a great dynamic (off/on) ratio.....The ANSI would show that whe white and black (mixed content) that the peak white is limited by almost half....White will still look white there is no question of that and a white screen off all ice\snow will look good, the question is will the luminance be noticeablebly different since they dont get as bright when otehr conent is in the screen.
\
For instance in a dark scene when there is a flashlight in a dark room, should\could there be more luminance or will it be affected by what we see in the checkerboard.....

Those with dark environemnts I dont think will ahve an issue, but if you are coming from LCD it may be a little jarring....

I may be totally off though and only time will tell, hopefully the shootout clears things up on what we are seeing.....

Just as reference here are the VT numbers from the shootout last year numebrs in cdm so they are eaiser to compare against the numbes we see:

White is 1st black is second...
cd/m2
CR 70.027465 0.0068525

E8000
cd/m2
CR 60.85563 0.020843

Sharp elite:
cd/m2
cr 120.578 0.01913


We'll have to wait for the NA versiosn of the ZT to be measured though to see if the more stringent power consumption rules affected any of the results we see. With the power supply the ZT60 has it shouldnt have an issue getting a "bright" picture....
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post #184 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Pretty funny people thinking "only" black level determiens which tv is better. To "dethrone", it must have the same color accuracy, the same antireflective properties, etc... And I can tell you it will not have as good of antireflective, as far as it will have much worse vertical viewing angles, as all Panasonics due, in comparison to the elites. I ahven't bothered reading about it, but I doubt the color accuracy will be as good, etiher, and also every panasonic i've tried had worse buzzing and more noticeable flicker, compared with the elite.

edit: also, that site has some weird ways of doing thigns sometimes. I forget now what they did thatw as odd, but seems like they didn't use local dimming on the hx929 or something similar to that. I don't care onew ay or another because I don't want a 65. Just saying, though, you shouldn't jump to conclusions on "dethroning" based on one review. Last year anotehr site even listed the WT50 as so great it would be mindbobblign to people how perfect it was, only to get a terrible review on CNET, one of their worst reviews in years. lol
The VT50 was pretty much on-point for color accuracy, so why would there be a regression? Vertical viewing angles are not important to me, as it will be placed at eyesight level. Finally, the antireflection prowess should be better after 5 years of plasma development, don'tcha think?
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post #185 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:32 PM
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how is that relevent at all?

there's no way your corvette used 14mpg because my viper gets 17mpg...

they are two completely different tv's...

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oh..ok... i guess my APC must be flawed. thx for pointing that out to me.rolleyes.gif

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Huh? What???

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Dunno where Saprano was coming from with that one. confused.gif

Jeez, calm down guys.

I said that because aren't these new TV's suppose to consume less power than pioneers "energy hog" as they're called, displays? That's what i always thought anyway. I have no problem being corrected.


airgas, the only way i can get to to anything over 400W is with a white color slide with energy save to off. Which actually gets close to 600W. Watching regular content it stays around 240 to 300. I don't even know why the kuros are said to use alot of energy anyway.

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post #186 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The VT50 was pretty much on-point for color accuracy, so why would there be a regression? Vertical viewing angles are not important to me, as it will be placed at eyesight level. Finally, the antireflection prowess should be better after 5 years of plasma development, don'tcha think?

I see you decided to head down the rabbit hole biggrin.gif
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post #187 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:37 PM
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Jeez, calm down guys.

I said that because aren't these new TV's suppose to consume less power than pioneers "energy hog" as they're called, displays? That's what i always thought anyway. I have no problem being corrected.


airgas, the only way i can get to to anything over 400W is with a white color slide with energy save to off. Which actually gets close to 600W. Watching regular content it stays around 240 to 300. I don't even know why the kuros are said to use alot of energy anyway.

Not when all of the energy saving "features" have been turned off wink.gif

They can average better, but thats with the energy savinging features off, usually the top of the line are not energy star compliant so they are closer to the older sets as far as power consumptoin goes in some areas.....at least I think so biggrin.gif
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post #188 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Pretty funny people thinking "only" black level determiens which tv is better. To "dethrone", it must have the same color accuracy, the same antireflective properties, etc... And I can tell you it will not have as good of antireflective, as far as it will have much worse vertical viewing angles, as all Panasonics due, in comparison to the elites. I ahven't bothered reading about it, but I doubt the color accuracy will be as good, etiher, and also every panasonic i've tried had worse buzzing and more noticeable flicker, compared with the elite.

edit: also, that site has some weird ways of doing thigns sometimes. I forget now what they did thatw as odd, but seems like they didn't use local dimming on the hx929 or something similar to that. I don't care onew ay or another because I don't want a 65. Just saying, though, you shouldn't jump to conclusions on "dethroning" based on one review. Last year anotehr site even listed the WT50 as so great it would be mindbobblign to people how perfect it was, only to get a terrible review on CNET, one of their worst reviews in years. lol

The ZT60 improves on all on all things from the kuro(I think. I'm still waiting for the shootout for a good reason) Color should be even as the VT50 was. You can't get better color than REC 709. Either it's good or not. Kuro was good, VT50 is good, so obviously the ZT will be good. The ZT60 also should have a better filter than the kuro also. I would need to see this in person though.

Anyway, how much of these improvement are worth it to you is up for you to decide. You have a 111FD. Unless you want a bigger size and 3D i'd say you should be content with it.

By the way, did you ever get the TV looked at?

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post #189 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:52 PM
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I see you decided to head down the rabbit hole biggrin.gif

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't even play party to that nonsense.
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post #190 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 07:54 PM
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That's exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't even play party to that nonsense.

Thinking the same thing. lol.

vinnie take the blue pill!

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post #191 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post




Jeez, calm down guys.

I said that because aren't these new TV's suppose to consume less power than pioneers "energy hog" as they're called, displays? That's what i always thought anyway. I have no problem being corrected.


airgas, the only way i can get to to anything over 400W is with a white color slide with energy save to off. Which actually gets close to 600W. Watching regular content it stays around 240 to 300. I don't even know why the kuros are said to use alot of energy anyway.

probably would have helped if you had worded it that way to begin with.

i think tv's NEED to use that kind of power to match the performance. they may come with eco modes and slightly more efficient panels, but for something like the ZT that is supposed to be all about picture quality at any cost would be use whatever power is necessary.

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post #192 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

The ZT60 improves on all on all things from the kuro(I think. I'm still waiting for the shootout for a good reason) Color should be even as the VT50 was. You can't get better color than REC 709. Either it's good or not. Kuro was good, VT50 is good, so obviously the ZT will be good. The ZT60 also should have a better filter than the kuro also. I would need to see this in person though.

Anyway, how much of these improvement are worth it to you is up for you to decide. You have a 111FD. Unless you want a bigger size and 3D i'd say you should be content with it.

By the way, did you ever get the TV looked at?

i still say the ZT isn't going to make too many kuro owners give up their tv's. but for those without one, buying a new zt with warranty makes a lot more sense than buying a used kuro with unknown history and no warranty. if the zt sells for 4k, the most i'd consider on a kuro would be 2k. that is assuming the zt is equal in performance. if it's even better i might not want a kuro at all. as aside from it's PQ, it's actually lacking a LOT of features some ppl may be interested in.

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I know , I know, sometimes I can't help m'self (engaging posts, even with established contrarian history, etc.).
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post #194 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 10:50 PM
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The VT50 was pretty much on-point for color accuracy, so why would there be a regression? ...snip...

That's not an accurate statement. It's only really accurate for the APL level it was calibrated at.

The weakness of the VT50s is that color and gamma are not linear at various APL levels.

I'd like to see if they fixed it in the ZT60.

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post #195 of 257 Old 04-30-2013, 11:11 PM
 
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Well, educate me. What would be the need to adjust it for another APL level? Varying lighting conditions? Akin to ISF Day and ISF Night?
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post #196 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

Pretty funny people thinking "only" black level determiens which tv is better. To "dethrone", it must have the same color accuracy, the same antireflective properties, etc... And I can tell you it will not have as good of antireflective, as far as it will have much worse vertical viewing angles, as all Panasonics due, in comparison to the elites. I ahven't bothered reading about it, but I doubt the color accuracy will be as good, etiher, and also every panasonic i've tried had worse buzzing and more noticeable flicker, compared with the elite.

edit: also, that site has some weird ways of doing thigns sometimes. I forget now what they did thatw as odd, but seems like they didn't use local dimming on the hx929 or something similar to that. I don't care onew ay or another because I don't want a 65. Just saying, though, you shouldn't jump to conclusions on "dethroning" based on one review. Last year anotehr site even listed the WT50 as so great it would be mindbobblign to people how perfect it was, only to get a terrible review on CNET, one of their worst reviews in years. lol

I didn't notice any vertical viewing problems with the ZT during the Panasonic show, but I wasn't looking for it either. I'd be surprised if this were an issue.

I'd also be surprised if color accuracy were an issue. Based on the one review, it's actually spot on.

IR does tend to be an issue, but we'll have to wait and see how significant it is.
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post #197 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 04:55 AM
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Well, educate me. What would be the need to adjust it for another APL level? Varying lighting conditions? Akin to ISF Day and ISF Night?

Hi Vinnie,


APL refers to average picture level. That's how bright the content is. A hockey game is a lot brighter than a Lord of the Rings scene when they're in dark caves.

Therein is where the non linearity problem with the VT50s shows up. If you calibrate to make one look great, the other one suffers. So what you're having to do is make a compromise so they both look good enough. Actually, this can help low level scenes in that they're usually some kind of tungsten lit scenes (think yellow red) and if you're calibrating a bit on the blue side for lower levels, it cancels out some of the yellow red. That where it's not really accurate but may look better to most people. I actually prefer it that way. Up unto this year, for plasmas, most calibrators used a standard window pattern which is a 10-10.8% size window surrounded by black. On the VT50s, it looks like a 5% size window with an 18% brightness surround works much better. The 18% brightness surround simulates fairly closely to what most content falls into. The 5% size window I think had to do with not causing the automatic brightness limiter (ABL) circuit to kick in (which causes colors to shift) or at least to minimize it when you get to the brighter patterns. Yes, it's crazy but at least now it's been figured out for my display. That's why I have hopes that Panasonic did something about this for the 2013 displays. Ultimately, it's about getting as much content regardless of APL to look great.

ISF Day and ISF Night refer to memory locations where picture settings are stored. You can do the same in "custom" picture mode but it's a pain as the menu keeps flipping back a level. There is software (controcal) that allows a user the ability to activate these menus and have direct access to adjustments without the huge risk of entering the service menu and accidently changing something that you didn't intend to. With controlcal, if you screw something up, you just reset it. This may be something you and others will want to look into if you get into using other people's setting or if you choose to get into calibration. I highly recommend it.

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post #198 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 05:34 AM
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Hi Vinnie,


APL refers to average picture level. That's how bright the content is. A hockey game is a lot brighter than a Lord of the Rings scene when they're in dark caves.

Therein is where the non linearity problem with the VT50s shows up. If you calibrate to make one look great, the other one suffers. So what you're having to do is make a compromise so they both look good enough. Actually, this can help low level scenes in that they're usually some kind of tungsten lit scenes (think yellow red) and if you're calibrating a bit on the blue side for lower levels, it cancels out some of the yellow red. That where it's not really accurate but may look better to most people. I actually prefer it that way. Up unto this year, for plasmas, most calibrators used a standard window pattern which is a 10-10.8% size window surrounded by black. On the VT50s, it looks like a 5% size window with an 18% brightness surround works much better. The 18% brightness surround simulates fairly closely to what most content falls into. The 5% size window I think had to do with not causing the automatic brightness limiter (ABL) circuit to kick in (which causes colors to shift) or at least to minimize it when you get to the brighter patterns. Yes, it's crazy but at least now it's been figured out for my display. That's why I have hopes that Panasonic did something about this for the 2013 displays. Ultimately, it's about getting as much content regardless of APL to look great.

ISF Day and ISF Night refer to memory locations where picture settings are stored. You can do the same in "custom" picture mode but it's a pain as the menu keeps flipping back a level. There is software (controcal) that allows a user the ability to activate these menus and have direct access to adjustments without the huge risk of entering the service menu and accidently changing something that you didn't intend to. With controlcal, if you screw something up, you just reset it. This may be something you and others will want to look into if you get into using other people's setting or if you choose to get into calibration. I highly recommend it.

Some calibrators having been using small windows way before the VT50 came around, it is not something unique to the VT50. My set is pretty darn consistent in all content.

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post #199 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 05:35 AM
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Jim,

How large of shifts in color does a change in APL cause? Can you give me a sense of magnitude? I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but for example, would a 10% change in APL cause a 1% change in some/all colors?

Thanks
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post #200 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 06:08 AM
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Jim,

How large of shifts in color does a change in APL cause? Can you give me a sense of magnitude? I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but for example, would a 10% change in APL cause a 1% change in some/all colors?

Thanks

I didn't get into it that far other than when using standard non APL window patterns, I wound up with a greenish picture. The presumption is standard window patterns calibrated at a lower APL so when you used normal content, you were off. If APL didn't influence the picture, then it should have been correct.

Then this road took me through different size window patterns, then using APL windows, then trying to find the right combination of what size windows using what intensity surrounds (APL) for which saturation level and intensity level to get the best results.

I'm not a professional calibrator so I had the time to focus on just this one display (65VT50) and try a lot of different things.

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post #201 of 257 Old 05-01-2013, 11:41 AM
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In terms of adjusting the picture I haven't seen talk in the thread about the new version of Panasonic's VIERA Remote 2 application having "Smart Calibration" capability which will apply to the VT and ZT series models.

If you have an Android or Apple tablet, Smart Calibration allows you to control picture settings including color gamut, 10 point gamma, White Balance as well as contrast, color, tint and more. By using the app you can make the adjustments directly without ever having to bring the picture settings menu up on the screen! There is never any onscreen indication that an adjustment is being made.

This is great for calibrating and will "keep the peace" in my household as I can tweak the TV at anytime via my tablet without my wife screaming at me for bringing the menu up on screen. Definitely a win-win.
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In terms of adjusting the picture I haven't seen talk in the thread about the new version of Panasonic's VIERA Remote 2 application having "Smart Calibration" capability which will apply to the VT and ZT series models.

If you have an Android or Apple tablet, Smart Calibration allows you to control picture settings including color gamut, 10 point gamma, White Balance as well as contrast, color, tint and more. By using the app you can make the adjustments directly without ever having to bring the picture settings menu up on the screen! There is never any onscreen indication that an adjustment is being made.

This is great for calibrating and will "keep the peace" in my household as I can tweak the TV at anytime via my tablet without my wife screaming at me for bringing the menu up on screen. Definitely a win-win.

This is a great idea but Is limited to custom mode only, could you achieve the same results/performance as calibrating the pro modes?

Not much info on what adjustments are available to you in custom mode.
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post #203 of 257 Old 05-02-2013, 06:14 PM
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This seems insanely brighter and somewhat darker than the ZT60 no?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/18515096-post119.html

The review said the ZT60 was darker.

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post #204 of 257 Old 05-02-2013, 06:17 PM
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This seems insanely brighter and somewhat darker than the ZT60 no?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/18515096-post119.html

The review said the ZT60 was darker.

Those numbers are from what an 8500 ?

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post #205 of 257 Old 05-02-2013, 06:19 PM
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Those numbers are from what an 8500 ?

Kuro 500A.

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post #206 of 257 Old 05-02-2013, 06:20 PM
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Kuro 500A.

Ohhh

65VT60
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post #207 of 257 Old 05-02-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

This seems insanely brighter and somewhat darker than the ZT60 no?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/18515096-post119.html

The review said the ZT60 was darker.


Hopefully somone can clarify if the 8x figure would be insanely brighter than the 5x number the 3x difference does seem like a lot, but would it make taht much of a difference...The posted numbers you linked to as well as what we saw from the UK reviews of the GT\VT made the ZT look "dim" (luminance wise" compared to the other sets ANSI results....Hopefully this will all be cleared up in the shootout...
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post #208 of 257 Old 05-03-2013, 02:55 AM
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Pardon my ignorance, but is there a power draw maximum set federally/etc. that household items like televisions must adhere to? I wouldn't say that I'm as sensitive to ABL as some others appear to be, but since there's a direct correlation between image brightness and energy consumption with plasma tech it's a point of contention. Given the institutionalization of "eco-friendly" nonsense, is there a possibility that another plasma could ever convey the image stability of a 9th gen Kuro without compromising peak brightness?
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post #209 of 257 Old 05-08-2013, 02:37 PM
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So I have pre-ordered it today! Expecting it on May 21st (Sweden). And I think I might be the first one taking the plunge over here... smile.gif
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post #210 of 257 Old 05-08-2013, 03:18 PM
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From what I understand there is no US federal mandate that restricts power usage of TV displays, only if the manufacturers wants their producst to qualify as Energy Star rated for that year's qualification parameters.

Thus far there is no indication that the possible luminance issues are necessarily due to energy efficiency requirements and could be something else entirely.
Nothing wrong with being 'eco-friendly' and it is short sighted to blithely disregard pursuing those goals, so long as those goals are within reason; unless of course one enjoys wasting money and resources. -Absolutely loathe getting more mileage per dollar or more movie watching for less on each month's power bill, jeesh.

Looking forward to the big VE shootout that should provide definitive answers and hopefully there is a clear winner that will be a decent replacement for my current display.

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