Comparison of Black levels - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Black levels, from deepest to lightest , on fully calibrated displays (arguably, as you can see):

  • Kuros 500M, 600M, and D-Nice's (and PG's) tweaked/special sauce, 141, 151, 101, 111 (50" and 60" models)
  • Panasonic ZT60 - extremely close to Kuros, - most will not tell the difference, (available up to 65", which Kuros were not)
  • Panasonic VT60 - almost identical to ZT60 (available up to 65", which Kuros were not)
  • Samsung F8500 - a shade lighter than the two Panasonics, (but higher lightoutput, if that's your thing, available up to 64")
  • Panasonic ST60 - a shade lighter than Samsung (also available in 65")
  • LG plasmas - larger discrepancy between the ones above.

Bottom line, Kuros and Panasonics are no longer manaufactured, ....Samsungs and LGs are still made (for now).

Between the Samsungs and LGs, Samsung has deeper blacks.

Constant bickering gets us nowhere. You will not change the other person's mind. So enjoy what you have.
I agree with you, the black levels are all so close between the last Plasmas that it is not worth it to find out who is the best ... wink.gif

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post #92 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 09:28 AM
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The VT and ZT should measure exactly the same (aside from panel variation, etc.) per Shooout and based on what other people are measuring them with the Kleins. I think Buzz is measuring around .0011 with his VT60 unit and Klein...and he is as reputable as anyone.

D-Nice said the ST60 measured .0016 at the Shootout (even though that display was not part of it) which would put it slightly darker than the F8500 which measured .0018. However, I am not sure if it depends on the size of the ST60 or not.
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post #93 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 10:32 AM
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ST60 EU black 0.0014 fl , F8500 EU Black 0.0017 fl ... wink.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #94 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 01:56 PM
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Hi Urga. What is the stability on ST60 EU version? I am feeling cautious to flash new firmware on f8500:(

 

--peteswede

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post #95 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The VT and ZT should measure exactly the same (aside from panel variation, etc.) per Shooout and based on what other people are measuring them with the Kleins. I think Buzz is measuring around .0011 with his VT60 unit and Klein...and he is as reputable as anyone.

D-Nice said the ST60 measured .0016 at the Shootout (even though that display was not part of it) which would put it slightly darker than the F8500 which measured .0018. However, I am not sure if it depends on the size of the ST60 or not.

I measure my ST60 50" at 0.002ftL. using a calibrated display 3 pro.
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post #96 of 127 Old 03-07-2014, 02:42 PM
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Hungro 60 or 96hz ?

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
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post #97 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterswede View Post

Hi Urga. What is the stability on ST60 EU version? I am feeling cautious to flash new firmware on f8500:(

--peteswede
You talk about the stability of the image?
On my ST60 image is stable ... wink.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #98 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:05 PM
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:) sorry, I mean does the black level have full stability?

 

--peteswede

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post #99 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:16 PM
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Where are people getting all these extra zeroes from? I keep reading reviews with such huge variations of numbers. Like above, 0.002ftL, 0.01 fL and some have 0.0002ftL and I could have sworn I've seen 6 digits. 0.00232 fL

HCFR doesn't seem to have that many digits in ftL.

I thought there was only a certain x.xxxftL?
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post #100 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Where are people getting all these extra zeroes from? I keep reading reviews with such huge variations of numbers. Like above, 0.002ftL, 0.01 fL and some have 0.0002ftL and I could have sworn I've seen 6 digits. 0.00232 fL

HCFR doesn't seem to have that many digits in ftL.

I thought there was only a certain x.xxxftL?


If you put HCFR in edit mode, you will be able to see more significant figures in the grayscale 'Y' reading by double clicking the value. It will be in cd/m^2 so you'll have to convert to ftL. For example, my 65VT60 measures 0.00512 cd/m^2. Dividing that by the 3.426 conversion factor yields 0.00149 ftL.

Larry
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post #101 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:25 PM
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Quote:

Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Where are people getting all these extra zeroes from? I keep reading reviews with such huge variations of numbers. Like above, 0.002ftL, 0.01 fL and some have 0.0002ftL and I could have sworn I've seen 6 digits. 0.00232 fL

HCFR doesn't seem to have that many digits in ftL.

I thought there was only a certain x.xxxftL?

because some measure next to a white pixels and there is leakage, also there is variation on modern plasmas where the black bars go lighter depending on some factors

 

--peteswede

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post #102 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterswede View Post

Quote:
because some measure next to a white pixels and there is leakage, also there is variation on modern plasmas where the black bars go lighter depending on some factors

--peteswede

Huh?

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post #103 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post


Huh?

Larry

I said black bars just to make an explanation, actually it happens in all content for example get a black screen and draw a small white box and slowly grow the box larger and tell me what happens

 

--peteswede

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post #104 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterswede View Post

I said black bars just to make an explanation, actually it happens in all content for example get a black screen and draw a small white box and slowly grow the box larger and tell me what happens

--peteswede

He is talking apples and you answered oranges. smile.gif He's talking about measurements using meters and you answered about a visual observation.

Larry
fixed typo
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post #105 of 127 Old 03-08-2014, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

If you put HCFR in edit mode, you will be able to see more significant figures in the grayscale 'Y' reading by double clicking the value. It will be in cd/m^2 so you'll have to convert to ftL. For example, my 65VT60 measures 0.00512 cd/m^2. Dividing that by the 3.426 conversion factor yields 0.00149 ftL.
That's one of the higher values I've seen...I take it this is in 60 hz mode?
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post #106 of 127 Old 03-09-2014, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterswede View Post

smile.gif sorry, I mean does the black level have full stability?

--peteswede
The black level is not moving, not floating black ...

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post #107 of 127 Old 03-09-2014, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

If you put HCFR in edit mode, you will be able to see more significant figures in the grayscale 'Y' reading by double clicking the value. It will be in cd/m^2 so you'll have to convert to ftL. For example, my 65VT60 measures 0.00512 cd/m^2. Dividing that by the 3.426 conversion factor yields 0.00149 ftL.

Larry
Yes ,
EU measures are candela ...
Black ST60 0.005 Cd/M² : 3.426 = 0.00145 fl ...





wink.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #108 of 127 Old 03-09-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That's one of the higher values I've seen...I take it this is in 60 hz mode?

Yes, 60 Hz.

Larry
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post #109 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Added new 2014 model into the mix. Enjoy. cool.gif
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post #110 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post


2014 Models

PN64H5000 (64") (USA) 0.0016 fL Calibrated black level (black screen) (HDTVtest)


How is the H5000 capable of near F8500 blacks?
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post #111 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

How is the H5000 capable of near F8500 blacks?

By simply operating the panel interlaced all the time like the Pannys. The F8500 can't have both its best black and the brightest white at the same time, hence floating black. By giving up brightness, the H5000 gets to have 0.0016 fL and actually keeps it unlike the F8500.
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post #112 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 04:21 PM
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where does the 60f5300 stacks up?

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post #113 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

where does the 60f5300 stacks up?

0.0058 fL according to HDTVTest. If anyone can look past the pentile array, then the H5000 will be the best budget TV you can buy. Better blacks than the current F8500, just as good as calibration options if not better than the F5300, (closer to the F8500 I heard) brightness about the same as the F5300/F5500, 37ms of input lag, great price..I mean there isn't much that the H5000 is doing wrong...except for the pentile array of course.
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post #114 of 127 Old 03-15-2014, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

0.0058 fL according to HDTVTest. If anyone can look past the pentile array, then the H5000 will be the best budget TV you can buy. Better blacks than the current F8500, just as good as calibration options if not better than the F5300, (closer to the F8500 I heard) brightness about the same as the F5300/F5500, 37ms of input lag, great price..I mean there isn't much that the H5000 is doing wrong...except for the pentile array of course.

and the lack of an AR filter, which will be a deal-breaker for many. myself included.
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post #115 of 127 Old 03-16-2014, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

By simply operating the panel interlaced all the time like the Pannys. The F8500 can't have both its best black and the brightest white at the same time, hence floating black. By giving up brightness, the H5000 gets to have 0.0016 fL and actually keeps it unlike the F8500.
Most of the higher brightness of the F8500 comes from the greater subpixels and a bigger power supply. The H5000 doesn't have this and this is the reason why it does not get bright as the F8500, not the interlaced reset pulse. And there is no info if the interlaced reset pulse is always on.
The reset algorithm of samsung plasmas have 3 states, lowest is on every second pixel line (interlaced method), second is one reset pulse after a full set of subfields (10 or 12) and last is 2 reset pulses (after 5 or 6 subfields). The Starfield Black measurments of zoyd show us that there is even a higher mll than the 2 reset pulses with some APL's on samsung plasmas. If someone could do this starfield measurments on the H5000 we would know if the black level is always at 0,0016fl. I doubt that.
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post #116 of 127 Old 03-16-2014, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

By simply operating the panel interlaced all the time like the Pannys. The F8500 can't have both its best black and the brightest white at the same time, hence floating black. By giving up brightness, the H5000 gets to have 0.0016 fL and actually keeps it unlike the F8500.

The Black H5000 0.0016fl , ST60 EU level which is 0.0014fl ... wink.gif

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post #117 of 127 Old 03-16-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

How is the H5000 capable of near F8500 blacks?

Just my guess, but I think the previously planned H7000 in essence became the H5000.

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post #118 of 127 Old 03-16-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soopermario View Post

Most of the higher brightness of the F8500 comes from the greater subpixels and a bigger power supply. The H5000 doesn't have this and this is the reason why it does not get bright as the F8500, not the interlaced reset pulse. And there is no info if the interlaced reset pulse is always on.
The reset algorithm of samsung plasmas have 3 states, lowest is on every second pixel line (interlaced method), second is one reset pulse after a full set of subfields (10 or 12) and last is 2 reset pulses (after 5 or 6 subfields). The Starfield Black measurments of zoyd show us that there is even a higher mll than the 2 reset pulses with some APL's on samsung plasmas. If someone could do this starfield measurments on the H5000 we would know if the black level is always at 0,0016fl. I doubt that.

I'm sure it floats like all Samsung plasmas have for years. It's been part of their design as Zoyd has discussed.

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post #119 of 127 Old 03-17-2014, 03:22 PM
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Hungro 60 or 96hz ?

60Hz, never checked in 96Hz.
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post #120 of 127 Old 03-17-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urga View Post

The Black H5000 0.0016fl , ST60 EU level which is 0.0014fl ... wink.gif
Not even a fair comparison nor does it matter since you cannot get the ST60 anymore, but if you could. The 65" ST60 was selling for $2,399 USD when released while the 64H5000 is selling for $1,397.00 USD.

You need to compare with other TV's within it's price. Otherwise we can just add the ZT60 in there as well.
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