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post #1 of 127 Old 05-03-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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DISCLAIMER
This measurements were not taken by me personally. All I did I searched for reviews on the internet and compiled various measurements from various sources into single datasheet. There may be a margin of error in the data. If you think some measurements are not correct, it's not my fault.


If you have the info about the black levels of TV models that are not included here, please feel free to post the link and I will update OP.


PIONEER

8G

Kuro PDP-4280HD (42") 0.007 fL (AVSForum)
Kuro PDP-5080HD (50") 0.006 fL (AVSForum)
Kuro PDP-5010FD (50") 0.004 fL (AVSForum)
Kuro PDP-6010FD (60") 0.004 fL video black, 0.008 fL ANSI (Home Theater)
Elite PRO-110FD (50") 0.004 fL (Home Theater)

9G

Kuro PDP-6020FD (60") 0.001 fL (D-Nice)
Elite PRO-111FD (50") 0.001 fL (Home Theater)
Elite PRO-141FD (60") 0.001 fL (AVSForum)

9.5G

Kuro KRP-500M (50") 0.0005 fL (AVSForum)
Elite PRO-101FD (50") 0.0005 fL (AVSForum)


PANASONIC

2008 Models

Viera TC-42PX80 (32") 0.037 fL (FlatpanelsHD)
Viera TH-50PZ800U (50") 0.015 fL (Tom Huffman)

2009 Models

Viera TC-P54V10 (54") 0.007 fL (Chad B)
Viera TX-P42G10 (42") 0.0087 fL (FlatpanelsHD)

2010 Models

Viera TC-P50S2 (50") 0.009 fL (Chad B)
Viera TC-50G25 (50") 0.0083 fL (Chad B)
Viera TC-50VT20 (50") 0.0026 fL (hdtvtest.co.uk)
Viera TH-65VX100U (50") 0.005 fL (Home Theater)
Viera TC-P65VT25 (65") 0.01 fL (Chad B)

2011 Models

Viera TC-P50ST30 (50") 0.0135 fL video black. 0.0135 fL ANSI (Chad B)
Viera TC-P65ST30 (65") 0.0094 fL (CNET)
Viera TC-P55GT30 (55") 0.0082 fL (CNET)
Viera TC-P65VT30 (55") 0.0062 fL (CNET)

2012 Models

Viera TC-P50GT50 (50") 0.0053 fL. 0.0062 fL ANSI (Chad B)
Viera TC-P65VT50 (65") 0.0025 fL in 60 Hz mode. 0.002 fL in 96 Hz mode. 0.002 ANSI (Chad B)

2013 Models

Viera TC-P50S60 (50") 0.0024 fL full field black. (PlasmaPZ80U)
Viera TC-P50ST60 (50") 0.00232 fL full field black. 0.0029 fL ANSI (Chad B)
Viera TC-P60VT60 (60") 0.00146 fL in 60Hz mode. 0.00165 fL ANSI. (Chad B)
Viera TC-P65ZT60 (65") 0.0011 fL (HDGuru)
Viera TX-P60ZT65B (60") (UK) 0.0009 fL black screen. 0.00117 fL ANSI checkerboard. (HDTVtest)
Viera TX-P60ZT65B (60") (UK) 0.00088 fL ANSI checkerboard. (AVSForums)
Viera TX-P65VT65B (65") (UK) 0.002 cd/m2 (AVSForums)
Viera TX-P65VT65B (65") (UK) 0.0033 cd/m2 After calibration in “Mid” mode. (HDTVtest)

SAMSUNG

2009 Models

PN58B650 (58") 0.012 fL (Tom Huffman)
PN50B860 (50") 0.020 fL (Home Theater)

2010 Models

PN50C8000 (50") 0.010 fL (D-Nice)
PN58C7000 (58") 0.007 fL (Home Theater)
PN63C7000 (63") 0.007 fL. 0.018 fL With Cinema Smooth on. (Chad B)

2011 Models

PN51D8000 (51") 0.0165 fL. 0.0225 fL with a 1080P/24 input and Cinema Smooth turned on. (Chad B)
PN64D8000 (64") 0.008 fL. 0.012 fL with a 1080P/24 input and Cinema Smooth turned on. (Chad B)

2012 Models

PN51E450 (51") 0.0111 fL (CNET)
PN51E550 (51") 0.0085 fL (CNET)
PN60E8000 (60") 0.0073 fL with a 1080P/24 input and Cinema Smooth turned on. 0.0079 fL ANSI without CS. 0.0062 fL with CS. (Chad B)

2013 Models

PN60F8500 (60") 0.001 fL Black Optimizer on. 0.003 fL ANSI (TweakTV)
PN64F8500 (64") 0.0025 fL with 1080P/24 and cinema smooth on. 0069 fL with Black optimizer off (Chad B)

2013 OLED TV

KN55S9C (55") 0.00004 fL Entirely black Screen (CNET)

2014 Models

PN64H5000 (64") (USA) 0.0016 fL Calibrated black level (black screen) (HDTVtest)


LG

2008 Models

50PG60 (50") 0.033 fL (Home Theater)

2009 Models

60PS80 (60") 0.023 fL (Home Theater)

2010 Models

50PK550 (50") 0.0132 fL (Chad B)
50PK750 (50") 0.026 fL (Chad B)
50PK950 (50") 0.0116 fL (FlatpanelsHD)

2011 Models

50PZ950 (50") 0.0219 fL Black luminance (0%). (CNET)

2012 Models

50PM9700 (50") 0.0136 fL Black luminance (0%). (CNET)


CONCLUSION
2013 is the year Kuro was finally matched. Last Kuro models were introduced in 2008. It took 5 years to produce TVs that could dethrone the King. TVs from Panasonic ZT60 series are equal to Kuro 9G. 2013 Samsung OLED TV absolutely trumps Kuro 9.5G in black level performance.


Sources
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Various measurements (AVSForum)

Pioneer KURO PDP-6010FD 1080p 60" Plasma Display Measurements (Home Theater)

Pioneer Elite PRO-110FD Plasma TV Measurements (Home Theater)

Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-111FD Plasma HDTV HT Labs Measures (Home Theater)

The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion (AVSForum)

Pioneer 9G Kuro Comparison Chart: xx20, 500/600M, 111/151, 101/141, 500/600A, LX-XX90 (AVSForum)

PANASONIC TX-P42G10 REVIEW (FlatpanelsHD)

The Official Panasonic TC-PXXS2 Owner's Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

The Official Panasonic G20/25 Owner's Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic TC-PxxVT20/25 Owners Thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxST30 Thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic 2011 TC-PxxVT30 Series Thread Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

Panasonic TC-P65ST30 review (CNET)

Panasonic TC-P55GT30 review (CNET)

Panasonic TC-P65VT30 review (CNET)

Official Panasonic GT50 Series Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread (AVSForum)

Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

Panasonic TC-PZT60 review (CNET)

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 HDTV-First Review (HDGuru)

Panasonic TX-P60ZT65B Plasma TV Review (HDTVtest)

UK Panasonic ZT65/ZT60 (TX-P60ZT65) 3D Plasma TV Review (AVSForums)

Panasonic VT65 (VT60) TX-P65VT65B 3D Plasma TV Review (AVSForums)

Panasonic TX-P65VT65B Performance (HDTVtest)

Samsung C7000 & C8000 measurements by D-Nice (AVSForum)

Samsung PN58C7000 Plasma 3D HDTV HT Labs Measures (Home Theater)

The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread (AVSForum)

CNET Plasma TV aging test : 2011

Official Samsung 2011 PNxxD8000 Thread (AVSForum)

Samsung PN51E450 review (CNET)

Samsung PN51E550 review (CNET)

Official Samsung PNXXE7000 - PNXXE8000 owners thread (AVSForum)

Preliminary Review of Samsung New PN60F8500 Plasma (TweakTV)

Samsung F8500 - new industry standard? (AVSForum)

Samsung PN64H5000 (USA) Plasma TV Review (HDTVtest)

LG 50PZ950 review (CNET)

LG 50PM9700 review (CNET)

Samsung OLED TV: Best picture we've ever seen (CNET)
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post #2 of 127 Old 05-03-2013, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I updated the first post and added some new data. I hope you enjoy comparing the black levels of 2013 models with older ones. biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 02:22 AM
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Lots of people want good black levels.The black levels are quite black on Sam e450 plasma.Lots of new shows have a contrasty look with real dark black levels and real bright whites.You don't see much in the dark black screens and there is no problem with them being black enough.Black levels being black enough is not a problem on this tv,except on some lighter screens the gamma changes and the blacks lighten up some..the shifting gamma,dim screen and overblown whites are the main issues on this tv,but I'll live with them.
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post #4 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 11:43 AM
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There are a few things that can affect the black level measurements, so I would take the numbers above with a pinch of salt. Meter differences, panel size and the amount of hours on the panel all can give different numbers. For example, the 50" and 55" ST50 and GT50 measure ~0.005 after 100-150hrs, but drop to under 0.003 shortly after (as proven by D-Nice on the ST50). The larger ST50/GT50s measure in the 0.002x range regardless of hours. The ST60 has been measured as low as 0.0016 with a Klein K10 colorimeter as per D-Nice and 0.0015 as per David Mackenzie with the same meter. The Klein K10 is one of the best meters for measuring low light.
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post #5 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 04:46 PM
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I thought the VT60 was supposed to be blacker than the Kuro 9.5G?
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post #6 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 05:48 PM
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No, the lowest the VT60/65 has been measured at, was 0.0009fL by HDTVTest. The ZT65 has been measured at 0.0003fL by AVForums. David Mackenzie and the reviewer for the ZT65 at AVForums both use a Klein K-10 colorimeter. Chad B uses a SpectraCal C6 colorimeter for black readings which may cause differences in measurements. Also worth mentioning is that HDTVTest reviewed the 55VT65 and AVForums reviewed the 60ZT65... panel sizes may cause slight differences, too.
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post #7 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 09:02 PM
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Choosing the ycc444 setting over rgb on cablebox makes the blacks seem darker on mine.

Don't mean to change topic from original but somebody finding a plasma that does not overblow/clip whites is every bit or more important than the black levels from what I've seen on 2 of them.Unless the higher priced plasmas don't have that White clipping problem.mine is the lowest priced plasma.
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post #8 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anybody know, why EU models measure way lower blacks than NA models? Does that mean that black levels are high on NA models because they are made cheaply? I observed that EU models cost is higher that NA models.
It also seems while all 2013 North American Plasma TV sets have bested 8G Kuros, 2013 EU model VT60/VT65 has matched 9G Kuro black levels. Also EU ZT65 has bested 9.5G Kuro.
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post #9 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 11:36 PM
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Yeah, I'm wondering it too. At first, I thought measuring at 50hz instead of 60hz was the reason, but no, they also measure in 60hz. Is it because of supposed lower brightness for EU models? I think I've heard European VT50 owners complaining about light output on professional mode, but I may be mistaken.
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post #10 of 127 Old 05-04-2013, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

Does anybody know, why EU models measure way lower blacks than NA models?

AFAIK, they don't.

ST60
0.00232 fL (NA, Chad B)
0.0016 fL (NA, D-Nice)
0.0020 fL (NA, HD Guru)
0.0015 fL (EU, HDTVtest)

F8500
0.002 fL (NA, CNET)
0.0025 fL (NA, Chad B)
0.0017 fL (NA, D-Nice)
0.001 fL (NA, TweakTV)
0.004 fL (NA, Jeff Meier)
0.0018 fL (EU, HDTVtest)
0.0038 fL (EU, AVForum)

As rahzel said, the meter used and panel size can affect measured MLL, as can certain settings (like Black Optimizer on the F8500). Most measurements I've seen this year from either continent seem pretty close, although Katzmaier's measurements are high for the S60 and ST60.
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post #11 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 12:06 AM
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Panel size definitely makes a difference on the Samsungs. They historically had better MLLs on higher inch models, but it's reversed this year. I wonder how low can a 51 inch F8500 can go then?
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post #12 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Panel size definitely makes a difference on the Samsungs. They historically had better MLLs on higher inch models, but it's reversed this year.

Is that confirmed? I've seen only two measurements of the 60" F8500 and none of the 51". I want to know MLL, ANSI pattern and full-screen white measurements for the 51", but I haven't seen any posted yet.
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post #13 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Panel size definitely makes a difference on the Samsungs. They historically had better MLLs on higher inch models, but it's reversed this year. I wonder how low can a 51 inch F8500 can go then?

I noticed that, too. I think Kevin Miller had measured the 60" at .001fL and the 64" at .0016fL. I was very impressed with the 51" that I watched in a dark room in Magnolia. Looked close to my 500m in that black bars didn't have anything in the way of glow, even in low apl scenes. Black optimizer was on, of course. That being said, it did not reach the depth of the pioneer, but the black level they attained this year is better than what I can recall on the Panasonic 50 series.

Katzmaier's comparison of the ST60 to the F8500 had the Samsung coming in blacker, but not beating the VT60... I'm sure someone will be measuring it soon though.

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post #14 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I noticed that, too. I think Kevin Miller had measured the 60" at .001fL and the 64" at .0016fL. I was very impressed with the 51" that I watched in a dark room in Magnolia. Looked close to my 500m in that black bars didn't have anything in the way of glow, even in low apl scenes. Black optimizer was on, of course. That being said, it did not reach the depth of the pioneer, but the black level they attained this year is better than what I can recall on the Panasonic 50 series.

Katzmaier's comparison of the ST60 to the F8500 had the Samsung coming in blacker, but not beating the VT60... I'm sure someone will be measuring it soon though.

Miller did not disclose the MLL of 64 inch model on his review. I only see ANSI black and ANSI contrast ratio. Wasn't Ken Ross' sample, not the one Miller had used for his review, the only 64 inch one Miller had its MLL disclosed? From what I heard, the reason F8500's MLL behaves this way is because larger inch panels have bigger pixels, therefore higher brightness, which may be possible for affecting the MLL. Miller mentioned the ANSI luminance lobbing is reduced on the 64 inch sample which may explain for higher ANSI contrast ratio despite having higher MLL/ANSI black. I only saw 60 inch model and it definitely had Kuro 141FD level on/off black, but its touted brightness was kind of a letdown. I was expecting more since so many people were saying it's about 90% as bright as an F8000. Maybe the 64 inch one can satisfy me. Miller also mentioned he also tested the 51 inch one along with the others, but didn't disclose any info. I hope to find out ASAP.

Edit : And while the 60 inch model I saw definitely had great black, I would never go as far as to say it's anywhere near the 500M. Hmm, the mystery thickens.
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post #15 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 02:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

AFAIK, they don't.

ST60
0.00232 fL (NA, Chad B)
0.0016 fL (NA, D-Nice)
0.0020 fL (NA, HD Guru)
0.0015 fL (EU, HDTVtest)

F8500
0.002 fL (NA, CNET)
0.0025 fL (NA, Chad B)
0.0017 fL (NA, D-Nice)
0.001 fL (NA, TweakTV)
0.004 fL (NA, Jeff Meier)
0.0018 fL (EU, HDTVtest)
0.0038 fL (EU, AVForum)

As rahzel said, the meter used and panel size can affect measured MLL, as can certain settings (like Black Optimizer on the F8500). Most measurements I've seen this year from either continent seem pretty close, although Katzmaier's measurements are high for the S60 and ST60.
I admit I was partially wrong. But I can confirm for sure that Panasonic EU models have lower black levels than their US counterparts. As for Samsung, some specimens of US model measure lower MLL than their EU counterparts.
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post #16 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

I admit I was partially wrong. But I can confirm for sure that Panasonic EU models have lower black levels than their US counterparts. As for Samsung, some specimens of US model measure lower MLL than their EU counterparts.

I wonder what's the ANSI black of the 500M? From AVForums' review of ZT60, they say the 500M (500A in their country) has about 14,000:1 ANSI contrast ratio which is way too lower than I thought.
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post #17 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 11:47 AM
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AFAIK the Kuros don't float blacks, so the MLL is the same as ANSI black. The problem with ANSI black is it's difficult to measure without letting any light in. Case in point, most reviews of the VT50 showed ANSI black slightly higher; but at the shootout, they managed to measure ANSI black and MLL the same. 14,000:1 ANSI is about right for a 1st gen Kuro (or 9G) but it seems low for a 2nd gen (or 9.5G).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Miller did not disclose the MLL of 64 inch model on his review. I only see ANSI black and ANSI contrast ratio. Wasn't Ken Ross' sample, not the one Miller had used for his review, the only 64 inch one Miller had its MLL disclosed? From what I heard, the reason F8500's MLL behaves this way is because larger inch panels have bigger pixels, therefore higher brightness, which may be possible for affecting the MLL. Miller mentioned the ANSI luminance lobbing is reduced on the 64 inch sample which may explain for higher ANSI contrast ratio despite having higher MLL/ANSI black. I only saw 60 inch model and it definitely had Kuro 141FD level on/off black, but its touted brightness was kind of a letdown. I was expecting more since so many people were saying it's about 90% as bright as an F8000. Maybe the 64 inch one can satisfy me. Miller also mentioned he also tested the 51 inch one along with the others, but didn't disclose any info. I hope to find out ASAP.

Edit : And while the 60 inch model I saw definitely had great black, I would never go as far as to say it's anywhere near the 500M. Hmm, the mystery thickens.

Well, if the 60" looks similar in mll to a 141FD, we're not that far off from the 500m. The other thing we don't know is whether these sets get a little blacker over time when they've had more break in.

Maybe it was D-Nice that got that measurement in mll on the 64" panel, I don't remember, I'm just going off one of Ken's old posts when he was at VE with Robert and D-Nice. I think David McKenzie just reviewed the 64" with an mll of .00175fL. If Katzmaier is reviewing the 60" at .002fL, and he has it darker than the ST60, which we already know that panel is hitting around .0016fL based on the best readings by D-Nice and David McKenzie, we can say that this set gets plenty black. The opening of The Dark Knight that I viewed was stunning, easily on par with what I've seen with my 9.5G, just a slightly more detailed and brighter look to the image.

I'll ask when I'm at the shootout next Saturday whether there is a real discrepancy in mll across the different panel sizes. I'm really looking forward to Kevin's thoughts on the F8500 after this firmware fix.

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post #19 of 127 Old 05-05-2013, 12:15 PM
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What is this firmware suppose to fix on the F8500?
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post #20 of 127 Old 05-06-2013, 04:17 AM
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The firmware update addresses brightness popping and floating blacks. It was applied to Robert's 8500s and it worked. Kevin Miller was very pleased with the results. It also mitigated some calibration issues.
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post #21 of 127 Old 05-06-2013, 04:29 AM
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Is this something that is in the works for the D series as well? Have you heard anything. Most D series owners applied the Zoyd method of fixing the floating blacks but did Samsung release official firmware to address this issue. I know that I also read on this forum that the floating blacks returned for some people and that they just applied the "fix" a second or a third time. Sorry to go a bit of topic and bring in an old issue that has to do with the D series .
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post #22 of 127 Old 05-08-2013, 07:38 PM
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An accurate white balance and cms is how you get those good black levels.
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post #23 of 127 Old 05-08-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Is this something that is in the works for the D series as well? Have you heard anything. Most D series owners applied the Zoyd method of fixing the floating blacks but did Samsung release official firmware to address this issue. I know that I also read on this forum that the floating blacks returned for some people and that they just applied the "fix" a second or a third time. Sorry to go a bit of topic and bring in an old issue that has to do with the D series .

Hi, hungro.

The D series problem was included in an official update by Samsung. Zoyd extracted and posted it for all owners.

The problem has not reappeared on my D7000 and only a few very vocal owners claimed it did on their sets. (At least one of them replaced his D with an E series and almost immediately started to complain about the short comings of the new one.)

I too am sorry for the off topic post.

Larry
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post #24 of 127 Old 06-26-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

I updated the first post and added some new data. I hope you enjoy comparing the black levels of 2013 models with older ones. biggrin.gif
just wanted to say thank you for this thread! super nice to have this data all in one place.

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
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post #25 of 127 Old 06-26-2013, 03:27 PM
 
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ZT's missing. :[
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post #26 of 127 Old 06-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

ZT's missing. :[
its there... its soo black you cant see it biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
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post #27 of 127 Old 06-26-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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Nah, that's the 500M. biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 127 Old 06-26-2013, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for suggestion. Now both size ZT60 models are included in my comparison. I can't wait for 2014 and see how 2014 PDP TVs match 9G or even 9.5G Kuros in Black levels. biggrin.gif

BTW enjoy this link.
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post #29 of 127 Old 06-27-2013, 01:10 AM
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Nicely done! A while back I would be curious about this and have to google for a while, i'm just curious how Mitsu DLPs rate esp. with LCDs.

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post #30 of 127 Old 06-29-2013, 06:39 AM
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Well done.
It's been said already that all the readings are from different panel sizes, by different calibrators and meters. It's still very helpful to have all the numbers together as you have done.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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