Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Right, the relevance of ANSI measurements has been raised quite a bit this year.

Full-screen black should've been 0.0008 for the purposes of this shootout, however, since McKenzie achieved it on his review, and D-Nice referenced said review as mirroring the shootout measurements. To add, Chad also achieved this 0.0008, which puts to shame anything but a full-array LED or 9.5G Kuro.
It should have been 0.0008fLbased on what? What you think it should be or what a web converter says it should be? As I explained to you on another forum, We used properly calibrated Kleins and got the same measurments in fL and cd/m2. These measurements came from Klein's software, not CalMAN, any other calibration software or any other meter. So, either the Klein software have math conversion issues or the web based converter. I do know that David's meter read 0.0013fL when we switched his Klein software to fL and my meter read 0.003 cd/m2 when I switched my Klein software to cd/m2... full screen black of course in both 60 and 96Hz. Measurments were also the same with the ANSI patterns.

At any rate, the VT and ZT are excellent displays. However they are not of 500M/101FD stock or enhanced 2nd Gen Kuro black level capability on full screen black and/or ANSI patterns. That was very clear in the demo yesterday and tonight.
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post #362 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:10 PM
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Just got back from the shootout. After having watched it lat night on the net, I can say that you cannot appreciate how close these displays were in many categories, I will say that it's Samsung that is on the right track and is the revolutionary display. Even the Panasonic rep said they have met about what Samsung did. I they get those black levels down a little lower and Panny does nothing much, game over.

My observations are pretty close to Ken's. The darkest in light was the ZT60. Asa matter of fact from where I sat it looked quite a bit darker than the rest. D-nice said that was because of the filter. Both Panasonics were a little darker, visibly in the black level test, but we are talking a small amount. The best filter was the ZT60 followed by the 8500, then the VT60. Colors were right n for bot, the difference being that the 8500 was brighter so the colors looked maybe less saturated. I think what they all said was true this one is just up to what you are looking for and not the deficiencies of the panels or quality. If you need the extra output the Samsung is great and can hang close with the Panasonics in dark levels. If all you need is dimly lit viewing and thus want the darkest black levels, the Panasonics are for you. The only thing I will say is the ZT, is not all of that. With this total new manufacturing process, the visual and measured difference is practically nil.

The only thing is none of them quite knocked off the Kuro.The Kuro's colors are just as accurate if not more so, can get brighter than the Panasonics and yet has a better black level than them too. I am even more confused now as to what I am going to do......they were that close.

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post #363 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:10 PM
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Running SD from a Cisco cable box via HDMI produces watchable content on a XBR-3. I'm just seeking something similar. I could also run it through a Denon 4520 or Oppo 103 or would that work?. Probably getting the VT60 but I change my mind every 20 minutes.
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post #364 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

BTW I think the "real" winner of this wasnt even in the competition and that was the ST....

Sometimes I think I should just go that route and save an additional 1K compared to the F8500 and VT60.
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post #365 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It should have been 0.0008fLbased on what? What you think it should be or what a web converter says it should be? As I explained to you on another forum, We used properly calibrated Kleins and got the same measurments in fL and cd/m2. These measurements came from Klein's software, not CalMAN, any other calibration software or any other meter. So, either the Klein software have math conversion issues or the web based converter. I do know that David's meter read 0.0013fL when we switched his Klein software to fL and my meter read 0.003 cd/m2 when I switched my Klein software to cd/m2... full screen black of course in both 60 and 96Hz. Measurments were also the same with the ANSI patterns.

At any rate, the VT and ZT are excellent displays. However they are not of 500M/101FD stock or enhanced 2nd Gen Kuro black level capability on full screen black and/or ANSI patterns. That was very clear in the demo yesterday and tonight.

I think its gonna take manufacturers at least two more years to catch up to stock 500M/101FD black levels and about 4 years to catch up to enhanced 2nd generation Kuros. I am so glad I was finally able to secure your services and get my 101FD calibrated.

I watched the first day of the live feed and it looked like the Kuro demo disk i mailed you was a hit.

BTW my copy, like the original, has the same number of chapters as your copy - 11. It was my mistake to claim it had 15.
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post #366 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It should have been 0.0008fLbased on what? What you think it should be or what a web converter says it should be? As I explained to you on another forum, We used properly calibrated Kleins and got the same measurments in fL and cd/m2. These measurements came from Klein's software, not CalMAN, any other calibration software or any other meter. So, either the Klein software have math conversion issues or the web based converter. I do know that David's meter read 0.0013fL when we switched his Klein software to fL and my meter read 0.003 cd/m2 when I switched my Klein software to cd/m2... full screen black of course in both 60 and 96Hz. Measurments were also the same with the ANSI patterns.

At any rate, the VT and ZT are excellent displays. However they are not of 500M/101FD stock or enhanced 2nd Gen Kuro black level capability on full screen black and/or ANSI patterns. That was very clear in the demo yesterday and tonight.

I think its gonna take manufacturers at least two more years to catch up to stock 500M/101FD black levels and about 4 years to catch up to enhanced 2nd generation Kuros. I am so glad I was finally able to secure your services and get my 101FD calibrated.

I watched the first day of the live feed and it looked like the Kuro demo disk i mailed you was a hit.

BTW my copy, like the original, has the same number of chapters as your copy - 11. It was my mistake to claim it had 15.
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post #367 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

Just got back from the shootout. After having watched it lat night on the net, I can say that you cannot appreciate how close these displays were in many categories, I will say that it's Samsung that is on the right track and is the revolutionary display. Even the Panasonic rep said they have met about what Samsung did. I they get those black levels down a little lower and Panny does nothing much, game over.

My observations are pretty close to Ken's. The darkest in light was the ZT60. Asa matter of fact from where I sat it looked quite a bit darker than the rest. D-nice said that was because of the filter. Both Panasonics were a little darker, visibly in the black level test, but we are talking a small amount. The best filter was the ZT60 followed by the 8500, then the VT60. Colors were right n for bot, the difference being that the 8500 was brighter so the colors looked maybe less saturated. I think what they all said was true this one is just up to what you are looking for and not the deficiencies of the panels or quality. If you need the extra output the Samsung is great and can hang close with the Panasonics in dark levels. If all you need is dimly lit viewing and thus want the darkest black levels, the Panasonics are for you. The only thing I will say is the ZT, is not all of that. With this total new manufacturing process, the visual and measured difference is practically nil.

The only thing is none of them quite knocked off the Kuro.The Kuro's colors are just as accurate if not more so, can get brighter than the Panasonics and yet has a better black level than them too. I am even more confused now as to what I am going to do......they were that close.

So much for panasonic's "beyond reference" claim lol

I question what they changed on the Kuro to degrade its pq when they were putting it against the zt60 during tradeshows?
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post #368 of 1489 Old 05-11-2013, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I've never seen them and never heard anyone (including printed reviews thus far) comment on them. So I too have no idea where this is coming from. confused.gif

I think he is referring to the clip at 2:01:05

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout/videos/18161789

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post #369 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 12:19 AM
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What is "enhanced" Pioneers?
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post #370 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by surap View Post

What is "enhanced" Pioneers?

9.5 gen kuros (101fd and krp500) whose black levels have been lowered by d-nice with his proprietary software tweak.
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post #371 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Sometimes I think I should just go that route and save an additional 1K compared to the F8500 and VT60.

I love the ST60 biggrin.gif

And the price is right..
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post #372 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

So much for panasonic's "beyond reference" claim lol

I question what they changed on the Kuro to degrade its pq when they were putting it against the zt60 during tradeshows?

That's very sneaky on Panasonic's part frown.gif

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post #373 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 01:18 AM
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they made the claim that it was DNice's ability to get the kuro to perform at that level from what i remember and that no other calibrator could match that. meaning it was the talent of the calibrator on display and not the panel if you look at what other calibrators were able to do with the same kuro. who's to say Dnice won't get better at calibrating the zt/vt sets in the future but the test is now.
so for what it's worth Dnice agreed to only calibrate to half his ability. i don't want to speak on his behalf and maybe he will chime in but i think he agreed that it was fair which is why he agreed to it.
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post #374 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

The brightest display always wins given roughly equal blacks. Same reason everyone buys LEDs at Costco.

I have to wonder. Are the Panasonic's really clipping whites in real content?

Not even the VT50 clipped whites in real content. I presume this year's model have less of a problem with that, if anything.

I'm struggling to suffer with the "lack of brightness" on my 2012 Panasonic except when I'm just perfectly situated for the sun bouncing in from the side window (you need to be in the right spot for it be annoying, a few degrees off and the sun disappears).

I wouldn't discourage someone from buying brighter; but I wouldn't let them worry about not buying brighter, either.
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

After watching and listening to two days of shootout I don't know if any of these displays are worth upgrading from my VT50. I have a ZT60 on order that I will probably cancel on Monday.
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

What's sad is in some ways the shootout has raised more unanswered questions, lol

Actually, what i got from it, is you cant go wrong with any of them. Panny, Sammy have wonderful panels this year.
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post



BTW my copy, like the original, has the same number of chapters as your copy - 11. It was my mistake to claim it had 15.

The Kuro Demo disk that was used was it the 2007 or 2008?
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post #378 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 05:12 AM
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So....where are the results? The shootout is over, right? How long does it take to count up the votes? An hour or two? When are we going to find out who won this thing and that the finishing order was? No way it should be taking this long. Does anyone know? How long was it last year before a winner was crowned?

I feel strongly both ways!
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

So....where are the results? The shootout is over, right? How long does it take to count up the votes? An hour or two? When are we going to find out who won this thing and that the finishing order was? No way it should be taking this long. Does anyone know? How long was it last year before a winner was crowned?

I think election results come back quicker than this biggrin.gif

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I think election results come back quicker than this biggrin.gif

Unless they are in the recount stage...
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post

After watching and listening to two days of shootout I don't know if any of these displays are worth upgrading from my VT50. I have a ZT60 on order that I will probably cancel on Monday.

Yeah....Unless you're increasing your screen size, it's really hard to for most people to justify the cost vs benefit of upgrading. You start to get into that vicious cycle of TV acquisition syndrome and you're more fixated on TV specs then actually watching content on it.
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

So much for panasonic's "beyond reference" claim lol.....I question what they changed on the Kuro to degrade its pq when they were putting it against the zt60 during tradeshows?

I presume that the Kuro they pitted against the ZT60 at the trade shows was all stock and not ISF Calibrated by D-Nice like the one at the VE Shootout was. Knowing what i know about Japanese culture and companies, i think Panasonic has more integrity than to sabotage the Kuro in their comparisons.

But i am curious how a stock ZT60 stacks up against a stock 500M?
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post #383 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I presume that the Kuro they pitted against the ZT60 at the trade shows was all stock and not ISF Calibrated by D-Nice like the one at the VE Shootout was. Knowing what i know about Japanese culture and companies, i think Panasonic has more integrity than to sabotage the Kuro in their comparisons.

But i am curious how a stock ZT60 stacks up against a stock 500M?
The end result would have been the same. Also keep in mind that I did not make the 500M at the shootout as black as it possibly could have been.


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post #384 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It should have been 0.0008fLbased on what? What you think it should be or what a web converter says it should be? As I explained to you on another forum, We used properly calibrated Kleins and got the same measurments in fL and cd/m2. These measurements came from Klein's software, not CalMAN, any other calibration software or any other meter. So, either the Klein software have math conversion issues or the web based converter. I do know that David's meter read 0.0013fL when we switched his Klein software to fL and my meter read 0.003 cd/m2 when I switched my Klein software to cd/m2... full screen black of course in both 60 and 96Hz. Measurments were also the same with the ANSI patterns.

At any rate, the VT and ZT are excellent displays. However they are not of 500M/101FD stock or enhanced 2nd Gen Kuro black level capability on full screen black and/or ANSI patterns. That was very clear in the demo yesterday and tonight.
Not what I think, but as you mentioned on another site, perhaps it's due to a rounding error or mathematical conversion error by the Klein software. I have checked two separate calculator sites that have confirmed the 0.003 conversion to 0.0009 (more proper to round up this 1000th decimal place). Maybe I'll check out the equations for conversion myself. wink.gif This isn't very far from 0.0013 admittedly.
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I presume that the Kuro they pitted against the ZT60 at the trade shows was all stock and not ISF Calibrated by D-Nice like the one at the VE Shootout was. Knowing what i know about Japanese culture and companies, i think Panasonic has more integrity than to sabotage the Kuro in their comparisons.

But i am curious how a stock ZT60 stacks up against a stock 500M?
It doesn't quite measure up. Purely, on black levels, the stock should be 0.0005 if I'm not mistaken.
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post #385 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The end result would have been the same. Also keep in mind that I did not make the 500M at the shootout as black as it possibly could have been.

So i guess no Kuro killer again. I left a message on your phone about getting another display calibrated.cool.gif

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post #386 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:05 AM
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How do the panels compare to a 9G elite? The 9.5 has newer technology to achieve darker black levels I think? So now that we know that the panasonics can't match those, do they match or exceed the 9G kuros? According to cnet they do
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post #387 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

It should have been 0.0008fLbased on what? What you think it should be or what a web converter says it should be? As I explained to you on another forum, We used properly calibrated Kleins and got the same measurments in fL and cd/m2. These measurements came from Klein's software, not CalMAN, any other calibration software or any other meter. So, either the Klein software have math conversion issues or the web based converter. I do know that David's meter read 0.0013fL when we switched his Klein software to fL and my meter read 0.003 cd/m2 when I switched my Klein software to cd/m2... full screen black of course in both 60 and 96Hz. Measurments were also the same with the ANSI patterns.

At any rate, the VT and ZT are excellent displays. However they are not of 500M/101FD stock or enhanced 2nd Gen Kuro black level capability on full screen black and/or ANSI patterns. That was very clear in the demo yesterday and tonight.


Every time I run .003 cd/m2 through a converter it comes out to 0,000876 fL. If we take into account that he rounded down from .0034 it still comes out to 0,000992 fL.
Also if i run .0013fL through the converter it comes out to 0,004454 cd/m2. So what am i doing wrong on the conversion? am I missing something here?

Btw i have tried multiple websties same results
http://www.convertworld.com/en/luminance/
http://www.unitconversion.org/luminance/candelas-per-square-meter-to-foot-lamberts-conversion.html
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/luminance/calculator/foot-lambert-%5BfL%5D-to-candela-per-square-meter-%5Bcd/m%5E2%5D/
http://dennisthomsen.dk/2010/08/convert-cdm2-to-fl-foot-lambert/

either way I wan to say thank you to Robert for putting the show on, and a big thank you Do David M, D-Nice, and Kevin Miller for taking their time, and sharing their expertise with all of us. I really do appreciate the hard work you do and thanks for putting on a great shootout.
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post #388 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:16 AM
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Dnice You have been officially accused of cheating. Lol. Come on guys. Just go out and buy one of theses. You just can't go wrong. Keep plasma alive.
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post #389 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:18 AM
 
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^No one's accusing anyone, just trying to make sense of these readings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeBoogie View Post

How do the panels compare to a 9G elite? The 9.5 has newer technology to achieve darker black levels I think? So now that we know that the panasonics can't match those, do they match or exceed the 9G kuros? According to cnet they do
They're very close, in all likelihood one couldn't differentiate on the black level front, though I suspect the 60" Kuros go brighter....so an upgrade is still a downgrade in some ways.
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post #390 of 1489 Old 05-12-2013, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeBoogie View Post

How do the panels compare to a 9G elite? The 9.5 has newer technology to achieve darker black levels I think? So now that we know that the panasonics can't match those, do they match or exceed the 9G kuros? According to cnet they do
As I said months ago....

The ZT, as well as the VT, should equal some 2nd gen Kuros. They will not equal all 2nd gen Kuros. That comment excludes the 500M/101FD. I really wish I could have hauled my 141FD to the shootout.


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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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