Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Well the PROs choice weighs more in m eyes. Since they are the ones who actually did the calibration and measurement. None of the attendees spent enough time with the panels over two days to properly do any kind of review IMO. Especially with the brightness discrepancy I think most would pick the brighter panel. Its human nature.

Well let's face it, if the calibrators label one panel a 99 and the other a 100, that's essentially a tie.

But my take is a bit different. In terms of black levels, all units were very close with an edge to the VT/ZT. However when it comes to brightness, and IMO the even more important performance aspect, ABL behavior, the 8500 has a significant edge. I say that because ABL performance can be seen and appreciated even in a dark viewing environment. Most people can also see the advantage in picture sharpness afforded by the 8500.

For those reasons I find (as David said) the 8500 to be the clear winner as best 'all-around performer'. I have no problem giving up just a bit of MLL for the more significant gains in ABL and brightness.
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post #542 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Its for feedback, its not for "hey go buy this tv".

You need to know what the display does wrong and what it does right and get the one that applies with your needs. Dark performance for me is always way more up there than light, but I keep my displays around 35-38fl anyways.

Now that gets to the category of 'headroom'. If you keep your displays at 35-38fl, you've now ruled out the ZT and you just barely squeeze in the VT@35fl. There's very little headroom here.
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post #543 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

^All that said, the Panny's were the best, right?

The answer is, it depends on where the TV is going......Also the results of the voting have not been posted....
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post #544 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:21 AM
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Please discuss sharpness. How "sharp" should 1080P content (say, a blu-ray movie) look? How is fidelity to the source determined?

Also, of the three, which is capable of rendering facial tones the best? Also, shadow details?

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post #545 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Now that gets to the category of 'headroom'. If you keep your displays at 35-38fl, you've now ruled out the ZT and you just barely squeeze in the VT@35fl. There's very little headroom here.

Just to be fair, the limitations were only seen in ISF mode, the sets probably could get brighter, but the otehr modes were not measured so there is no telling if numbers would have been different..Of course the other modes may introduce other things that would skew the calibration and or results, wee just dont ahve that info smile.gif
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post #546 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Please discuss sharpness. How "sharp" should 1080P content (say, a blu-ray movie) look? How is fidelity to the source determined?

Also, of the three, which is capable of rendering facial tones the best? Also, shadow details?

What was discussed in the shootout that the Samsung may look sharper becasue its brighter . Also it handles material that are less than 1080p generally better than Panasonic. if all you watch is Blu-rays then it may be a non issue for you.....

Ill let those that went to the event comment on how shadow detail and facial tones were handled...
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post #547 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gene9p View Post

It was up to the attendees not the calibrators to pick the winner and there was an unfair push for the Panasonics. Besides my Kuro I own and recommend Panny plasmas to everyone at all price levels. That being said the Samsung was the best tv as it performed in all kinds of lighting, had pure whites, clear bright picture and black levels were terrific especially when viewing movie demos and the little bit of regular tv programming shown including a bit of basketball playoffs. I won't say money was involved, but David represents Panasonic overseas and he was the main speaker and he had quite a few digs aimed at the Samsung tv.. Reminds me of 2 years ago when the "Kuro Killer' Sharp Elite just had to win, now the Panny ZT had to win but it was out done by it's little brother VT who was just as good but less money and both came up short against the Sammy. Funny how the techs wouldn't admit on the one test where the Sammy tv had bars all across the screen that that was better than the usual 4-5 bars on the Panny's. They tried to brush it off and say everything else about what the bars meant, but if you listen to Friday night you will hear me ask repeatedly is it better yes or no until reluctantly D-nice said yes.

I didn't realize that David had a relationship to Panasonic overseas. I must have missed that. I

I agree about the chart in question Gene. The Samsung's performance was clearly better, but it seemed to be dismissed. I did find that odd like you.

The bottom line, as I've said before, calibrator's have their biases just like all of us. Anyone blindly choosing, based solely on their opinions, especially when the panels are so close in many performance aspects, is doing themselves a real disservice.

See these panels yourself and make up your own mind. Sure, if a calibrator points to a serious performance issue, weigh that too. But it seems like there were no serious issues with any panel.
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post #548 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:33 AM
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Looking forward to the results of this-

http://avforums.tps.uk.com/2013registration.php

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/tps-to-hold-pioneer-vs-panasonic-vs-samsung-plasma-face-off/15429

The host claims the ZT60, and other models, has definitely surpassed the kuro.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasma-tvs/1764724-kuro-vs-modern-plasma-9.html#post18933030

Funny to see the kuro arguments are worldwide. biggrin.gif

How different are U.K sets from ours?

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post #549 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:38 AM
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Regarding the Samsung sharpness over the Panasonic...this has been going on for at least a few years.

In 2011, I briefly compared at home a 64D8000 to my ST30 and even on 1080p blu-ray, the Samsung was slightly more crisp. This was NOT because of brightness. There is something in these Samsungs that gives the image a slightly more crisp look. I stuck my nose to the screen on both displays with sharpness patterns and actually found the Samsung a hair cleaner at high frequencies so its not like the it's adding edge enhancement or something else.
It is still happening on the 2013s as we've heard and I've seen this even on the entry level F5300.

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post #550 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by gene9p View Post

I won't say money was involved, but David represents Panasonic overseas and he was the main speaker and he had quite a few digs aimed at the Samsung tv..

Gene,
I'm sorry, but what?

First of all, I do not represent Panasonic in any territory. I'm an independent reviewer and compressionist. Please check your facts before you post things like this.

Were I affiliated with any manufacturer beyond my usual role of pointing out bugs (something I do for ALL manufacturers who want to listen), I doubt that I would be allowed to speak at the shootout. Robert clearly differentiates manufacturer presentations at the beginning of the event and then turns it over to independent experts.

Second, which "digs" did I have at the F8500?
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post #551 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:44 AM
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So the VT60 won?

Good, it was pretty obvious.

I don't think you have been reading this thread. Or maybe I don't understand your type of humor.

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post #552 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Gene,
I'm sorry, but what?

First of all, I do not represent Panasonic in any territory. I'm an independent reviewer and compressionist. Please check your facts before you post things like this.

Were I affiliated with any manufacturer beyond my usual role of pointing out bugs (something I do for ALL manufacturers who want to listen), I doubt that I would be allowed to speak at the shootout. Robert clearly differentiates manufacturer presentations at the beginning of the event and then turns it over to independent experts.

Second, which "digs" did I have at the F8500?

I did not notice that you had any "digs" with Samsung at the Shootout. What I do remember was you stating you thought the Samsung was the better all around set.

Maybe that is the "dig" that he was talking about??????

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post #553 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:52 AM
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Just spoke to Value Electronics. Results will be out by the end of today!!!

I feel strongly both ways!
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post #554 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:56 AM
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Just spoke to Value Electronics. Results will be out by the end of today!!!

That's great news,Hopefully it'll be the F8500.
If that happens the Samsung has indeed the final nail in Panasonic's coffin.
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post #555 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

That's great news,Hopefully it'll be the F8500.
If that happens the Samsung has indeed the final nail in Panasonic's coffin.

I doubt it would be, but why would you want to kill off a competitor? The competition between the two is why both are improving.

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post #556 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:00 AM
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I own the f8500. Love it. I'm sure the vt60 has a nice image but I can't help but shake that tacky silver edging around the bezel that cheapens that high quality display. Shame on Panasonic.
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post #557 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

I did not notice that you had any "digs" with Samsung at the Shootout. What I do remember was you stating you thought the Samsung was the better all around set.

The best 2013 HDTV, of the VE participants, is the "better all around set" with respect to picture quality, right? Is the F8500 now the odds on favorite?

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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

That's great news,Hopefully it'll be the F8500.
If that happens the Samsung has indeed the final nail in Panasonic's coffin.

Exactly what we dont need. The competition is what has drived each company to make improvements....
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post #559 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:04 AM
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I just don't see how a television that has floating black, brightness pops and pink gray scale in the mid range (vs low range) can possibly be the best when the others don't have those issues.

Granted they will most likely be made better. It is my understanding, from what I heard watching the shootout, that the recent firmware release didn't fix it but made it better and I have to go with that. After all, not everyone sees/experiences those fluctuations the same. Panasonic made it better on the 30 series with firmware release but didn't fix it, however it was fixed in the 50 series. It seems to me that Samsung should have done everything to ensure that didn't happen this year.

Granted the F8500 gets brighter, however that does make colors look different, some people prefer that "look". One can get the same look from a lcd/led but then you've got the problem of off angle views. If higher brightness, even to the point of affecting color is desirable, or elevates one panel above another, then by that logic the F8000 should probably receive higher consideration, and other leds as well.

Speaking of color, when they showed the reports, didn't Panasonic do better both out of the box and after calibration? I wish day 2's video was up so I could take a look at them again since I was very sleepy by the time they were presented.

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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

That's great news,Hopefully it'll be the F8500.
If that happens the Samsung has indeed the final nail in Panasonic's coffin.

How many plasma models/sizes does Samsung manufacture for the US market? When has Samsung ever manufactured the best HDTV of a given year? What do you have against Panasonic.

I currently own two products from each- phone and tablet from Sammy; tv and blu player from Panny. I'd rather neither of them disappear. Panny is the plasma leader and Sammy is the mobile phone leader.
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post #561 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:12 AM
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The results are already in. 8500 "wins" because no one has seen a brighter plasma, but in a dark light-controlled secret room underneath the complex, a team of videophile Illuminati, hidden in the shadows, crown the VT60 as the quiet king for its picture quality, better contrast ratio, and the best part...doesn't have a Samsung logo on it biggrin.gif

Boom
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post #562 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I just don't see how a television that has floating black, brightness pops and pink gray scale in the mid range (vs low range) can possibly be the best when the others don't have those issues.

Granted they will most likely be made better. It is my understanding, from what I heard watching the shootout, that the recent firmware release didn't fix it but made it better and I have to go with that. After all, not everyone sees/experiences those fluctuations the same. Panasonic made it better on the 30 series with firmware release but didn't fix it, however it was fixed in the 50 series. It seems to me that Samsung should have done everything to ensure that didn't happen this year.

Granted the F8500 gets brighter, however that does make colors look different, some people prefer that "look". One can get the same look from a lcd/led but then you've got the problem of off angle views. If higher brightness, even to the point of affecting color is desirable, or elevates one panel above another, then by that logic the F8000 should probably receive higher consideration, and other leds as well.

Speaking of color, when they showed the reports, didn't Panasonic do better both out of the box and after calibration? I wish day 2's video was up so I could take a look at them again since I was very sleepy by the time they were presented.

Well I guess if the attendees didnt see these issues then thats how it could win. There is a difference between these things occuring and being found in calibration and them showing up during the demo material\voting period.....

As its been said before, if you get so focused on numbers you forget to watch the TV. We've only had a small handfull of reports from members that attended the events. Form them it seems the Samsungs brightness was more iimpactful to them than the lower MLL of the Panasonics. Theres nothing wrong with that, just peoples opinions, as its been said many a times, the numbers are a great tool to have, but when it comes down to it the votes\buying choices are going to be made on what people liked and what is going to fit thier situation...They are all very close this year and I think people were expecting some wide delta as it may have been in the past......
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post #563 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Exactly what we dont need. The competition is what has drived each company to make improvements....
I don't want to see the end of plasma,but it's going to happen either way,and let's not forget that Panasonic are having financial issue's due to sale drop's in the past year's.
My guess is Panasonic well be bought by Sony quit plasma and focus on LCD's and OLED's.
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post #564 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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Probably the same reason the Sharp Elite won the first year it was in the shootout, even with its poor color performance. The Elite won because the blacks were better and the crowd was swayed by that. In the case of the 8500, the crowd was wowed by the brightness.
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post #565 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:28 AM
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my first 3d tv was a Samsung 46D6400 and I love it exept for the motion blur,then I go plasma and read about Panasonics so I order one,55UT50,returned because it develops a vertical line on the the right edge of the screen...so I go with the 55ST50...returned because a burn in,they give me my money back so I decide this time go with Samsung...so...if this 60F8500 is as bright as my LED and as sharper as my actual 60e7000 I think I win even if it loose the shootout.let see if im lucky at last!!!
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post #566 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

The results are already in. 8500 "wins" because no one has seen a brighter plasma, but in a dark light-controlled secret room underneath the complex, a team of videophile Illuminati, hidden in the shadows, crown the VT60 as the quiet king for its picture quality, better contrast ratio, and the best part...doesn't have a Samsung logo on it biggrin.gif

As an owner of a VT30, I would have a hard time declaring any TV with a floating black issue a competition winner -- especially a competition operated by a consumer advocate, as Robert likes to think of himself. The VT30 version of the bug, at least, was *infuriating*, and I jumped through significant hoops with many of my fellow VT30 owners to get it repaired. IMHO, an error like that should disqualify a set from being considered from the competition, as that would create at least some incentive on the manufacturers to fix bugs like this.

If Samsung can fix these problems, and if the IR risk is not greatly increased by the additional brightness, I would be thrilled to consider the 8500 as my next TV. The additional brightness and perceived sharpness are killer features -- assuming they work correctly.

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post #567 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:39 AM
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Be that as it may, the King has been chosen; a decision made by those that create the shadows in which they lurk, pull all the strings, and put everything in its place.

Boom
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post #568 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

Be that as it may, the King has been chosen; a decision made by those that create the shadows in which they lurk, pull all the strings, and put everything in its place.

Results will be posted by the end of that day. Are you a VE employee? Do you have insider information?
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post #569 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I just don't see how a television that has floating black, brightness pops and pink gray scale in the mid range (vs low range) can possibly be the best when the others don't have those issues.

Granted they will most likely be made better. It is my understanding, from what I heard watching the shootout, that the recent firmware release didn't fix it but made it better and I have to go with that. After all, not everyone sees/experiences those fluctuations the same. Panasonic made it better on the 30 series with firmware release but didn't fix it, however it was fixed in the 50 series. It seems to me that Samsung should have done everything to ensure that didn't happen this year.

Granted the F8500 gets brighter, however that does make colors look different, some people prefer that "look". One can get the same look from a lcd/led but then you've got the problem of off angle views. If higher brightness, even to the point of affecting color is desirable, or elevates one panel above another, then by that logic the F8000 should probably receive higher consideration, and other leds as well.

Speaking of color, when they showed the reports, didn't Panasonic do better both out of the box and after calibration? I wish day 2's video was up so I could take a look at them again since I was very sleepy by the time they were presented.

Well I guess if the attendees didnt see these issues then thats how it could win. There is a difference between these things occuring and being found in calibration and them showing up during the demo material\voting period.....

As its been said before, if you get so focused on numbers you forget to watch the TV. We've only had a small handfull of reports from members that attended the events. Form them it seems the Samsungs brightness was more iimpactful to them than the lower MLL of the Panasonics. Theres nothing wrong with that, just peoples opinions, as its been said many a times, the numbers are a great tool to have, but when it comes down to it the votes\buying choices are going to be made on what people liked and what is going to fit thier situation...They are all very close this year and I think people were expecting some wide delta as it may have been in the past......

I am Not saying that they're not very close this year. Being that they are very close everything should be taken into consideration in determining who wins and that means they have to be nit picked. For me, the most important information from the shootout is that provided by the professionals, not so much the audience. I'm sure that is true for others on this forum, for various reasons, as well. And if it had as little importance as you want to imply, then there's little point of the majority of the presentation and information provided. Why not then just turn them on and let them vote?

IMO, what's great is that they are so very close, and the suggestion that new standards may need to be created.

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post #570 of 1489 Old 05-13-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

The results are already in. 8500 "wins" because no one has seen a brighter plasma, but in a dark light-controlled secret room underneath the complex, a team of videophile Illuminati, hidden in the shadows, crown the VT60 as the quiet king for its picture quality, better contrast ratio, and the best part...doesn't have a Samsung logo on it biggrin.gif

As an owner of a VT30, I would have a hard time declaring any TV with a floating black issue a competition winner -- especially a competition operated by a consumer advocate, as Robert likes to think of himself. The VT30 version of the bug, at least, was *infuriating*, and I jumped through significant hoops with many of my fellow VT30 owners to get it repaired. IMHO, an error like that should disqualify a set from being considered from the competition, as that would create at least some incentive on the manufacturers to fix bugs like this.

If Samsung can fix these problems, and if the IR risk is not greatly increased by the additional brightness, I would be thrilled to consider the 8500 as my next TV. The additional brightness and perceived sharpness are killer features -- assuming they work correctly.

I mostly agree passionately. However, I think the panel should be included but the fluctuating/pops flaw should carry a heavier weight than most other flaws.

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Panasonic Viera Tc P65zt60 65 Inch Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P60vt60 60 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv
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