Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

I feel the same as Ken re the apparent sharpness of the Samsung v. the Pannys.

Is fidelity to the source (blu-ray) with respect to sharpness superior on the Samsung? Is this view widely held?

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:12 PM
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I don't know, but I just wanted to say, my wife and I noticed this last night. I was wondering if it was a known issue or just mine. A great example bluray to demonstrate this is the iRobot 3d bluray (with Will Smith). Man, it's insane how bad it is in the movie and completely distracting! I was really upset about it.

Though, I put in the Hugo 3d bluray and wow, just WOW. Man, that's how I wish ALL 3d blurays were. My kids were tripping out on the intro where the snow comes in. Also, at one point, I told my son to move out of being in front of the TV only to find out it was the boy in the movie! I was trying to look around him to see the movie. It was the movie!! lol Man, other than that brightness changing issue, this is the best 3d ever!

Could it be the issue you are having is with the I Robot movie itself? That movie was converted to 3D, and Hugo was shot in 3D. Some of the 3D conversions were not done very well....

For those that aren't aware, Robert has discussed the 3D popping with Samsung. As long as they can reproduce it, a fix will be released.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:13 PM
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Vinnie, ha, agreed it should not be a decider when buying the set, but interesting none the less.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Lady year Samsung were also much brighter than 2012 Panasonic's. In fact most Samsung are very bright.
I think you mean 2011 (or the D series). The 2012 Samsungs (E series) were a step backwards in terms of brightness and Panasonic took a step forward. This year it's the opposite where the VT is dimmer than last year, but the ST60 is roughly the same, and Samsung is obviously much brighter.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Lady year Samsung were also much brighter than 2012 Panasonic's. In fact most Samsung are very bright.
Not true on the 2012s they were dimmer than the pannys

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

I feel the same as Ken re the apparent sharpness of the Samsung v. the Pannys.

Is fidelity to the source (blu-ray) with respect to sharpness superior on the Samsung? Is this view widely held?

Good question. Reminds me of my harping on ABL. I don't believe dimming of a display during bright scenes is being faithful to the source. In fact it's simply inaccurate.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
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Just spoke with Robert. Winner will be announced on value electronics facebook page within the hour

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dasanii19 View Post

Just spoke with Robert. Winner will be announced on value electronics facebook page within the hour

Gotta believe the scores are fairly tight. I'm still taking ZT, VT, F8500.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Calilife17 View Post

Every time I run .003 cd/m2 through a converter it comes out to 0,000876 fL. If we take into account that he rounded down from .0034 it still comes out to 0,000992 fL.
Also if i run .0013fL through the converter it comes out to 0,004454 cd/m2. So what am i doing wrong on the conversion? am I missing something here?

Btw i have tried multiple websties same results
http://www.convertworld.com/en/luminance/
http://www.unitconversion.org/luminance/candelas-per-square-meter-to-foot-lamberts-conversion.html
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/luminance/calculator/foot-lambert-%5BfL%5D-to-candela-per-square-meter-%5Bcd/m%5E2%5D/
http://dennisthomsen.dk/2010/08/convert-cdm2-to-fl-foot-lambert/

either way I wan to say thank you to Robert for putting the show on, and a big thank you Do David M, D-Nice, and Kevin Miller for taking their time, and sharing their expertise with all of us. I really do appreciate the hard work you do and thanks for putting on a great shootout.

Why bother with converters? To convert luminance into cd/m^2, multiply the fL quantity by 3.4263 (source: Digital Video and HD, Second Edition: Algorithms and Interfaces by Charles Poynton, pg. 579 ). BTW, If you need greater accuracy for the conversion factor, then compute the following quantity, 1/(.3048^2 x pi).
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

All this talk about greater perceived sharpness (assuming Samsung makes a similar leap in black level improvements), next year's Samsung could do a lot of dethroning methinks.

An open set of questions I think that's missing a clear answer: We assume Samsung will produce a new, improved model for 2014. No reason to doubt that so far, right?

We hear Panasonic is no longer spending money on plasma R&D. Does that mean 2013 is more or less it? Is there going to be any detectable change next year?

Does the 2014 Samsung -- assuming it is indeed improved and therefore a more clear "winner" among the pack -- represent some sort of high-water mark that remains untouched until an OLED comes along of similar size and remotely similar pricing?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:11 PM
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Ok Ken

Are you in here???


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Old 05-13-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

Ok Ken

Are you in here???



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Old 05-13-2013, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

An open set of questions I think that's missing a clear answer: We assume Samsung will produce a new, improved model for 2014. No reason to doubt that so far, right?

We hear Panasonic is no longer spending money on plasma R&D. Does that mean 2013 is more or less it? Is there going to be any detectable change next year?

Does the 2014 Samsung -- assuming it is indeed improved and therefore a more clear "winner" among the pack -- represent some sort of high-water mark that remains untouched until an OLED comes along of similar size and remotely similar pricing?
Too soon to tell (naturally). smile.gif I would not be so brave as to wager any bets on the likelihood of all of these answers being yes.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

Ok Ken

Are you in here???


he said he was sitting next to robert...so just find robert? or find the samsung group since someone else said he hung out over there.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I asked the the question to the Samsung reps as the Kuro demo with supposed to be strictly between the Kuro and Panasonic (It was my idea to ask them). It was out of respect for the company and damn sure wasn't because we did not want them to participate. I'm glad they said yes.

Based on your posts over the past 24 hours and the conversation we had at the shootout, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding the shootout in general. Instead of attempting to disrespect those involved with the shootout and the shootout's content with "paper cut" type attack tactics, please just spill the beans on exactly what your issues are in their entirety so that they can be addressed and hopefully resolved.


I felt the shootout was tilted toward the Panasonic despite what Robert said b4 it started. I felt your comments about technical issues were spot on about somethings but very evasive about others. I felt the Samsung LED which was a standout performer from where I was sitting was NEVER mentioned by you or any other person there other than the Samsung rep. and I hate LCD tvs!. It was far from an equal playing field when the techs ignore one of the participants. Certainly the Sony, also a subject of ridicule, was not given the chance to show it's best performance in any way. I think a lot of people wanted to see what a 4K tv could really do.. I am a plasma fan and a Kuro owner as you are but you know that wasn't an equal playing field by a long shot. The purpose of this shootout was to show off the Zt60 which proved only that the VT60 is the better buy and neither was as good as the Samsung 8500 and don't bother with the rest. I was surprised that not all the tv's were given the equal chance to strut their stuff. Now how does Robert sell the Sony 4k tv after the way you guys mocked it and the way even he himself allowed it to be presented. Would you buy one after seeing the show.? No..but he is going to try and sell someone one and you can bet you won't be quoted. and the shootout not even mentioned.

ps.

we never spoke at the show.......you got the wrong guy
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:42 PM
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I don't see how the Shootout could be an attempt to show off the ZT60 when they are bringing out a calibrated Kuro just to show that "Beyond the Reference" wasn't really beyond the reference.

If it was just a ZT60 showoff a great many things would have been different. One could argue the ZT60 took the biggest hit even if it ends up winning.

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Old 05-13-2013, 03:52 PM
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I don't see how the Shootout could be an attempt to show off the ZT60 when they are bringing out a calibrated Kuro just to show that "Beyond the Reference" wasn't really beyond the reference.

If it was just a ZT60 showoff a great many things would have been different. One could argue the ZT60 took the biggest hit even if it ends up winning.


actually it's going to take the biggest hit by losing...........
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:52 PM
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Agree with gene9p, but if all panels were taken to the top in terms of calibration and if there were 2-3 things that kept any model behind the other sets, the calibrators focus shifted automatically. VE shootout is an entusiast party - dark room blu-ray movie scenario. They dont look for a family TV.
And we need to watch the shootout when Robert uploads it and then see if they forgot to be fair. That can happen.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:00 PM
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actually it's going to take the biggest hit by losing...........

If it loses no doubt it takes the biggest hit. I already think its taken a "big" one amongst those that watched and attended the shootout.....
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:02 PM
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Watched both days online and I can't comment for what was said off camera but I felt the shootout was pretty fair as far as plasma was concerned.
LCD could've had a bit more attention though.
In the end, they made it so YOU can choose the best yourself.
They showed movie footage on all high end screens next to each other.
Let your eyes be the judge!
I'm grateful they gave the opportunity for seeing them side by side, thanks!
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Too soon to tell (naturally). smile.gif I would not be so brave as to wager any bets on the likelihood of all of these answers being yes.

Yep, Vinnie, it is too soon to tell. It's just some things to speculate on for the next "interregnum".

It seems to me, regardless of which of the three is the "winner" of this shootout, all three are (a) really good (b) slightly flawed. That suggests that anyone looking to buy right now could hardly go wrong (and could go a bit "more right" by considering the small pluses and minuses of each display), but that there is a bit of headroom for another generation or two of plasma improvement -- assuming it's even coming -- before we sit and wait out rationally priced and large enough OLEDs. The latter seems to be a 2016-17 phenomenon.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:11 PM
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Congratulations go to the F8500!
Well played by Samsung, focusing on brightness.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:13 PM
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As for the Sony 4k, they didn't even send a rep the first night. I missed the first hour on line Saturday so I don't know if one showed up that night. Not exactly much of a commitment on Sony's part. Btw, I scored the Sony 5th, behind the Sammy LCD.

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:13 PM
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Congratulations go to the F8500!
Well played by Samsung, focusing on brightness.

Excellent stuff cool.gif

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yep, Vinnie, it is too soon to tell. It's just some things to speculate on for the next "interregnum".

It seems to me, regardless of which of the three is the "winner" of this shootout, all three are (a) really good (b) slightly flawed. That suggests that anyone looking to buy right now could hardly go wrong (and could go a bit "more right" by considering the small pluses and minuses of each display), but that there is a bit of headroom for another generation or two of plasma improvement -- assuming it's even coming -- before we sit and wait out rationally priced and large enough OLEDs. The latter seems to be a 2016-17 phenomenon.


no doubt patience waiting for the OLED tv's is the way to go if you already own one the the top Plasma or LED tv's. It's not easy if you like to replace your tv every couple of years, like a leased car. Other than the brighter 8500 plasma....it's going to be a lot of the SOS for awhile.

did the 8500 win?..........
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

I don't see how the Shootout could be an attempt to show off the ZT60 when they are bringing out a calibrated Kuro just to show that "Beyond the Reference" wasn't really beyond the reference.

If it was just a ZT60 showoff a great many things would have been different. One could argue the ZT60 took the biggest hit even if it ends up winning.

If this was a ZT60 Dog and Pony Show, it would have been clear cut Saturday Night and we would not have had 2 days and 8+ pages of guessing and discussions.



Thanks, VE, Robert, David and D-Nice for putting on the shoot-out so us novices can learn about the latest crop of offerings. I'm just in the market for a 60" flat screen for hour Family Room HT Makeover and AVS and the Shootout have been very enlightening. Thanks for sharing it with us live!
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:19 PM
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Here are the 2013 Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation final results based on the votes of the attendees and our panel of experts. This year it's been a difficult task to declare a winner. Here's why:

The results came out so close that it is difficult to award one winner. The ZT60 won the popular vote in important categories, black and overall pq, but the F8500 has the highest scores overall and also won in important categories, like contrast ratio and day modes. In the past nine years it has always been very clear who won our Flat Panel Shootout event.

The attendees liked the higher light output of the F8500, so when tabulating the ballots the F8500 is the winner. They saw the F8500 as even sharper, which I would assume is also because of the brighter image in low and high ambient light conditions. Many participants told me the F8500 whites looked cleaner, brighter and in their opinion, whiter.

So the public has spoken and we therefore crown Samsung’s F8500 series PDP the new "King of HDTV" for 2013.

We also recognize and congratulate all of the development engineers at Samsung for making the most significant advancement in PDP technology this year.

Please also take note that the panel of experts selected the VT60/ZT60 as their personal choice. But even their choice was only a slight preference. As DeWayne put it to me.... “To me and just for example, if the VT60 is a 10 the F8500 is a 9 as I don’t care about panel brightness above 30fL”

However, we strongly recommend all consumers to use the same logic that the three expert panelists explained during our closing Q&A: end users should make their buying decision based on viewing habits. The three top contenders are all so very close this year that I don't see a clear winner and these three panels deserve our top recommendation equally.

In fact, all of the 2013 displays in our event this year are exceptional and have made significant advancements in picture quality, build quality and design. So my sincerest congratulations to Sony, Panasonic and Samsung for stepping up the game on PDP and LED display technology advancements.

Very respectfully submitted,

Robert Zohn
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:23 PM
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Very very close

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:24 PM
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Thanks Glashub
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