Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praktik View Post

Some people say we have moved past our tribal roots here in Western society - I disagree.

Our tribes are now decided based on the products we buy, and the resultant disputes are just as meaningless as they were when we were arguing over bible interpretations or which tribe had the better facepaint.

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Was it really necessary to bring in religion? smile.gif At least bible interpretation stems from those who are considering more existential matters than the latest shiny gadget to buy (the material desires, if you will). As if this thread hasn't been derailed enough, it's probably not a good idea to move into theology and philosophy, lol.

I think its finally getting interesting again. Carry on.
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post #1082 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:13 PM
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Just curious, why are you not going with the 65vt60? Just wondering if there is a preference for the 60 over the 65. Thanks
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post #1083 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

I cant believe how bad this thread has turned out...WTF people???? We have 3 great panels this year...who cares who its made by? You CANT go wrong with any of them.

I don't think people care who makes the set, but are questioning the testing methods and results that seem to favor certain sets over others. E.G. leaving the Samsung at 60hz, not showing native 4K on the Sony, putting the LCDs off main axis etc.
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post #1084 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 440forpower View Post

Just curious, why are you not going with the 65vt60? Just wondering if there is a preference for the 60 over the 65. Thanks
That's what I was going to ask .. I went from a 60" Sony LED to a 65" ST60 and VT60 .. What a difference that 5" makes .. I could never imagine going down a size .. Maybe hes going down just a $$$ thing
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post #1085 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I don't think people care who makes the set, but are questioning the testing methods and results that seem to favor certain sets over others. E.G. leaving the Samsung at 60hz, not showing native 4K on the Sony, putting the LCDs off main axis etc.

-The Samsung was set to 96Hz.

-The LCD's to the far right were angled directly toward the audience's seating position. Unfortunately, given the nature of the technology it would've been impossible to make them perfectly on-axis, however. In addition, the ZT60's AR filter was stated to limit horizontal viewing angles and was not placed in the center-most position on the wall, but I'd say that it still faired very well in both polls.

-Was the demonstration content (Lawrence of Arabia, Samsara, Dark Knight Rises) available in 4K? Also, they DID allow the audience to view Sony's own 4K demonstration material.


An aside, but have conspiracy theories really been an issue since the voting results were announced? I haven't read most of the posts in this thread...
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post #1086 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I don't think people care who makes the set, but are questioning the testing methods and results that seem to favor certain sets over others. E.G. leaving the Samsung at 60hz, not showing native 4K on the Sony, putting the LCDs off main axis etc.

sytech, everything you said is 100% incorrect. I'll reply to each of your incorrect comments:

Kevin Miller very carefully explained the entire testing and methodology and as an engineer it sounded perfectly correct. And the video sources and distribution was as pure as it could possibly be. What do you think is wrong with the testing methodology?

Samsung's F8500 was set at 96Hz, not 60Hz as you claimed

Native 4k content was shown on Sony's 65" 4k TV

The LCD's were on articulating wall mounts facing the audience and the audience walked around the room to see them straight on.

I think it would be very nice to support retailers that support this category of enthusiasts. Give the specialists like Cleveland and Value Electronics our business and send a message to the manufacturers that we support those who support us. You could even look at it in a selfish way in that we get great personalized service, and knowledgeable technical advice when we do business with professional audio/video experts.

.
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post #1087 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Ken, I understand your half of the truth, but I'm interested in both sides. Just because nighttime viewing represents the majority doesn't mean we neglect the daytime minority. If you don't think 3d is going to be selling very well in the very near future as displays get refreshed and prices keep going the way they are, then you will be by the wayside, if you aren't already of course.

3-D capable displays sell well. 3-D content doesn't. 3-D broadcast is borderline non-existent. And the market doesn't seem to be clamoring for more.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup. IMO I think it's a big mistake to think this can only occur on commercials with full-screen whites. If that was it, I could give a rat's tush about it. But it isn't, it simply is not. I did the comparisons on normal content between a Pro 151 and a Sharp Elite for a month. They were both in my house. I've done the comparisons between an 8500 and a VT60 at more MHTs than I care to mention. In fact, I've yet to see a commercial in my comparison of the latter, just actual content. The ABL's throttling is unmistakeable. This is not an illusion, it's not a trick your eyes are playing on you and it's not just the result of an A/B. I can see it clearly watching an ABL hindered display all by itself.

Perhaps some are more sensitive to it than others. Perhaps some have never really seen what can happen when an ABL is less aggressive or simply doesn't exist.

There are a couple of fundamental flaws with this line of reasoning:

1) A Pioneer 151 isn't a Panasonic VT50 or VT60. So without some evidence that the Pioneer behaves similarly to one, we can more or less disregard that data as irrelevant.

2) The ability to detect the existence of something and the ability to actually be affected by the presence of it in normal circumstances are not the same thing. And, really, "Mr. Today Show Blocks" should take a lesson from his own playbook here. You were -- and I'm paraphrasing -- pretty much the only person to notice this color error on the Sharp Elite and then you spent dozens (scores? hundreds?) of posts convincing people it wasn't a big deal. Now, you've decided that any detectable ABL, no matter whether the detecting is done solely by you, no matter what the content is, no matter how infrequent, no matter the circumstances, is sufficiently material to warrant hundreds (thousands?) of mentions.

This despite a half decade where the topic didn't even rise to the level of meaningful concern on the forums and where -- at least as of 2012 -- the issue was smaller than it had been in 2011 and I presume 2009-10.

The idea that a typical person is going to regularly notice the effect of ABL* on a Panasonic plasma is false. I'm willing to state the previous sentence as fact because I've carefully included qualifiers.

( The effect you are looking for is a visible dimming of the display, particularly in white/bright areas. Anything else you are seeing is not ABL. )
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

"Expert's" opinions and "user's" opinions are so often diametrically opposed. Just look at so many products reviewed on CNET from audio equipment to cellphones to routers...you pick the product. You'd think that two different products were being looked at, one by the 'experts' and the other by the 'users'. I personally gave up using these reviews to gauge the merits of a product for my own use since my experience has been the same as many other users. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a product, looked at a review and thought "this can't be the same product they reviewed".

And this can work either way from the expert review saying the product was fantastic and my experience being the opposite to them feeling the product was crap and me thinking it was great.

In the end it's what we see, hear or experience that is the truth as to what's 'best' for us. smile.gif

And yet, in the case of the shootout at Valyoo Elektroniks (spelling obfuscated in case the ridiculous filtering prevents me from spelling it correctly), the experts and the "laypersons" reached nearly identical conclusions. At the end of the day, expert opinions are generally worthless. Real people buy things, not experts. If you wish to buy what experts recommend, you ought to do that. There is nothing wrong with that as a screening device, but at the end of the day, people are buyers. Buyers make companies money. Profitable companies make more products. I'll let others grasp the math from there.
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

I cant believe how bad this thread has turned out...WTF people???? We have 3 great panels this year...who cares who its made by? You CANT go wrong with any of them.

True enough. The productive posts are here though: How do I choose among three great choices given my needs? Look carefully, and there are gems.
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post

I agree. After talking on the phone with Dnice i am going with a 60" VT60 to replace my 65vt30 sometime this fall.

Are you sure about shrinking your screen size?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1088 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

-The Samsung was set to 96Hz.

-The LCD's to the far right were angled directly toward the audience's seating position. Unfortunately, given the nature of the technology it would've been impossible to make them perfectly on-axis, however. In addition, the ZT60's AR filter was stated to limit horizontal viewing angles and was not placed in the center-most position on the wall, but I'd say that it still faired very well in both polls.

-Was the demonstration content (Lawrence of Arabia, Samsara, Dark Knight Rises) available in 4K? Also, they DID allow the audience to view Sony's own 4K demonstration material.


An aside, but have conspiracy theories really been an issue since the voting results were announced? I haven't read most of the posts in this thread...

-The Samsung was left at 60hz for some test.

-LCDs and plasma could have been mounted in 3 across/2 row configuration for greater comparision fairness.

-Native 4K was not shown during the shootout. Only after Day 2 had concluded. The Amazing Spiderman was available on the 4K server available for comparison.

Cue the "start your own shootout" rebuttal in 5,4,3,2...
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post #1089 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:49 PM
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Just got back from a Magnolia and looked at the F8500 and VT60 they had there. I'll be going back, and to different stores to see them in different lighting conditions, but as a first look I liked the VT60 more. The F8500 was much brighter which was nice, but in my eyes it didn't look quite as natural as the VT60. I was expecting the F8500 was going to bring the wow factor more at the store due to its brightness but it turned out the other way around, just saw the VT and immediately fell in love with the picture. I also have another concern with the F8500 and how it makes blacks brighter when you set the correct film cadence. Anyone know if this is going to be fixed with a firmware update?
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post #1090 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

-The Samsung was left at 60hz for some test.

-LCDs and plasma could have been mounted in 3 across/2 row configuration for greater comparision fairness.

-Native 4K was not shown during the shootout. Only after Day 2 had concluded. The Amazing Spiderman was available on the 4K server available for comparison.

Cue the "start your own shootout" rebuttal in 5,4,3,2...


You'll get no such rebuttal from me. What you will get, however, is my counterpoint that The Amazing Spiderman is an awful, AWFUL film that nobody should ever be forced to watch. wink.gif (but it's totally cool if anyone did actually enjoy it)
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post #1091 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:01 PM
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Originally this thread was very interesting. It has now changed and no longer fun to read.

I am now unsubscribing.

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post #1092 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:03 PM
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All this shootout talk has got me thinking , I'm going to battle the new harmony ultimate vs harmony 900 vs harmony 1 vs harmony 650 for best harmony remote in my house .. Gonna be tough to check black levels though
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post #1093 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

-The Samsung was left at 60hz for some test.

-LCDs and plasma could have been mounted in 3 across/2 row configuration for greater comparision fairness.

-Native 4K was not shown during the shootout. Only after Day 2 had concluded. The Amazing Spiderman was available on the 4K server available for comparison.

Cue the "start your own shootout" rebuttal in 5,4,3,2...

Dude - where you there? Have you ever been? You should've said something to them at the shootout. Oh, you weren't? So you were one of the guys watching the feed making judgements based on a compressed video feed on your computer monitor all sourced from a decent but hardly reference webcam? If I were ve, I might give up the feed next year what with the arm chair quarterbacks bitching and moaning at their laptops.

Hey I wasn't there either but I know what the feed is really for: to LISTEN to what the experts say.
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post #1094 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

Originally this thread was very interesting. It has now changed and no longer fun to read.


AGREED! I wish this thread had some serious administrators!
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post #1095 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

-The Samsung was left at 60hz for some test.

-LCDs and plasma could have been mounted in 3 across/2 row configuration for greater comparision fairness.

-Native 4K was not shown during the shootout. Only after Day 2 had concluded. The Amazing Spiderman was available on the 4K server available for comparison.

Cue the "start your own shootout" rebuttal in 5,4,3,2...

Sorry sytech, you are not having a good night. Today you are just wrong again and again and again.

The F8500 was set at 96Hz period.

The WT60 and F8000 were stacked just as you wanted it to be.

Native 4k content was shown and a lot of it.

The Sony 4k TV did a poor job with 1080p content, that's so very important for potential owners to know before they plunk down $7k.
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post #1096 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

actually that isnt the case as we found out at the event smile.gif Dave, Dewayne and Kevin said they were working on patterns to test "content" contrast ratios better.....I was under the thinking that ANSI tests were good measures of both dark and light content, but the more thought I put into it, we have varyinglevels of lighted content and the ANSI only measures max ftl and minimum MLL at the same time which very rarely happens......

I've been saying that ANSI CR is not real world for a long time and I've been attacked for it a multitude of times. It's why your eye often sees one thing when the ANSI CR seems to say something else. But people will continue to believe the #s and not their eyes because the #s are infallible, right? I go back to frequency response curves in things like speakers. You can have two speakers that appear to have the same plots right down to the +/- db at different points along the frequency response curves. But hey, the speakers sound totally different. How can that be when the #s say they should sound the same? What can I say, #s are great, we need them, but again, if you don't use your head, eyes and ears, you'll lose somewhere down the road.

Some of these guys think I say what I do because I'm 'selling', 'protecting', 'knocking', 'fanboying' (did I make up a word?) etc. I say what I do because I truly believe it. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong, but I'll only go along with the crowd if I think the crowd is right.
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post #1097 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post

Ken, that was the first thing I tried. No luck, the commas and periods still didn't show. mad.gif

Oh well, back to the drawing boards. smile.gif
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post #1098 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Ken Ross are you sure you don't work for Samsung or hold an enormous amount of the Korean stock? You own roughly 90% of the post and it sounds like tiu have orgasm over the f8500 and it is your life destiny to claim how sucky Panasonics are.

You got me. I'm a Senior VP at Samsung. Before this I was a Senior VP at Sharp and prior to that a Senior VP at Pioneer. I move around a lot. But the one consistency in my life is to attack Panasonic whenever I can. Sometimes I set the alarm in the middle of the night so I can write another nasty post about those SOBs at Panasonic. You do know that several guys that work for Panasonic beat me up when I was a kid? That's where it all started.

Uh oh, am I starting to sound like degobah77??????????? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
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post #1099 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

He was the same with the Sharp when he bought it.

When is the shootout going on youtube?

EDIT-

I'm just poking fun at Ken. Go easy on me.

I hear ya saprano, no harm no foul. wink.gif

I'm in a good mood today because the cyan fix is coming tomorrow! biggrin.gif
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post #1100 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post


I think its finally getting interesting again. Carry on.

Yup, as long as we don't talk about displays, specifically Samsung & Panasonic (those SOBs biggrin.gif), I think we're good.
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post #1101 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post

@Pinger- Really F8500 and VT60 are close? Did you see the F8500 side by side to the VT60? Clearly F8500 is 2x bright, superior in sharpness, shadow details and VIVID color. It is not even close! The F8500 looks like and LED next to the VT60. Was in BB saw 3-Vt50's, 2-VT60's next to 2-F8500 in a darkened room. Not even close. How can the experts even pretend the VT60 had higher Contrast ratio. I hope Samsung releases the Contrast Ratio soon so all the experts can hang their heads in shame.

Sorry mustang I meant black levels, sometimes my thoughts get ahead of my typing lol... I couldn't agree more on your other points and yes I did see the VT and F8500 side by side, hence the reason I have F8500 smile.gif
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post #1102 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post


There are a couple of fundamental flaws with this line of reasoning:

1) A Pioneer 151 isn't a Panasonic VT50 or VT60. So without some evidence that the Pioneer behaves similarly to one, we can more or less disregard that data as irrelevant.

2) The ability to detect the existence of something and the ability to actually be affected by the presence of it in normal circumstances are not the same thing. And, really, "Mr. Today Show Blocks" should take a lesson from his own playbook here. You were -- and I'm paraphrasing -- pretty much the only person to notice this color error on the Sharp Elite and then you spent dozens (scores? hundreds?) of posts convincing people it wasn't a big deal. Now, you've decided that any detectable ABL, no matter whether the detecting is done solely by you, no matter what the content is, no matter how infrequent, no matter the circumstances, is sufficiently material to warrant hundreds (thousands?) of mentions.

OK Mark, I'm going to make this very brief since you and I have been around this block 100X.

1. That is correct, I never compared the ABL of a 151 to a VT50 or VT60. However I have compared, multiple times, a VT60 with an 8500 and that's the only comparison that has any relevance to me today. Since this is a thread dedicated to comparing those 2 panels, I really don't care about how the VT50 or 151 would fair in this comparison today. I made a statement regarding my comparison to a 151 and a Sharp Elite because they both sat in my house for one month. That comparison is and was valid. That comparison was meant to point out the fact that people don't/didn't generally complain about the ABL on the 151 either. Yet I saw clear evidence that there was a significant impact from its ABL on that panel too. It wasn't just commercials.

2. Yes, I did detect the fact that the Elite had a cyan error. How did I determine that after I had owned it for awhile and never saw it? Because of those cyan-colored glass blocks on the Today Show. I didn't detect it prior and I rarely detected it subsequent to the Today Show 'citing'. So I see absolutely no contradiction whatsoever in spotting a problem but then determining it was something rarely seen. Reviews didn't mention it, owners didn't mention it. The people bothered by it the most were non-owners. A fact that was often the subject of amusement in the Elite threads. The fact that I saw it and reported it simply showed I was being honest about detecting an issue, even though it was rarely seen. However the comparison of the cyan error to the impact of ABL is just wrong IMO. Just plain wrong. The impact of ABL, as I've seen it, is far greater than the cyan error ever was on the Elite. So this not a case of 'taking a lesson from my own playbook', these are two different 'playbooks'.

You may have the last word because I'm not doing this again with you. We've done this dance often enough and neither will convince the other.
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post #1103 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post

Originally this thread was very interesting. It has now changed and no longer fun to read.

I am now unsubscribing.

I think I'm with you on this Jim. The anger & hostility is really kind of disheartening. frown.gif

I'm outta here.
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post #1104 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:08 PM
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post #1105 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:10 PM
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Hiya Mark and Ken - I'll be testing ABL at differing luminance levels on the F8500 next week Friday. I'll be sure and let you know how it goes. Personally I hope the Sammy auto response is minimal. This new pixel tech is nothing short of amazing after all these years of hiding PDP in dark rooms.
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post #1106 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You got me. I'm a Senior VP at Samsung. Before this I was a Senior VP at Sharp and prior to that a Senior VP at Pioneer. I move around a lot. But the one consistency in my life is to attack Panasonic whenever I can. Sometimes I set the alarm in the middle of the night so I can write another nasty post about those SOBs at Panasonic. You do know that several guys that work for Panasonic beat me up when I was a kid? That's where it all started.

Uh oh, am I starting to sound like degobah77??????????? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

-choking on his milk and cookies!-

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post #1107 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:12 PM
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Needless to say , I'm selling my st50 for the 8500. It was the best I've seen in a plasma. Period. I've never seen a pioneer but would love to in person!
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post #1108 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovetightbass View Post

Needless to say , I'm selling my st50 for the 8500. It was the best I've seen in a plasma. Period. I've never seen a pioneer but would love to in person!

you should see the zt/vt the .0013 compared to the anemic .0018 of the 8500 is mind blowing. don't sell yourself short.biggrin.gif

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post #1109 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:28 PM
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I don't get the point of arguing about personal preference. Nothing's perfect
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post #1110 of 1489 Old 05-14-2013, 08:36 PM
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Winner of the shoot out for 2013 was the Samsung 8500. I think I read Roberts post correctly.
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Panasonic Viera Tc P65zt60 65 Inch Plasma Hdtv , Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P60vt60 60 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv
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