Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:02 PM
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Most modern PDPs from Samsung are single sheet of glass, it's cheaper to make and has a lower dud panel rate. However they had some major reliability issues with the panels suddenly and randomly cracking during use, causing a sudden loss of image. They eventually sorted it. I'm hoping Panasonic learned from Samsung's issues with sudden cracking.
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post #1352 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

The ZT has the one piece of glass, not the VT.

Actually they both have two layers of glass, it's just that the protective outer glass on the ZT60 is bonded directly to the panel where on the VT60 there is a small air gap between the two layers. The "One Sheet of Glass Design" term merely refers to the way the outer glass extends to the very edges of the TV, instead of disappearing beneath a traditional plastic bezel like on the ST60/S60 etc.

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post #1353 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Actually they both have two layers of glass, it's just that the protective outer glass on the ZT60 is bonded directly to the panel where on the VT60 there is a small air gap between the two layers. The "One Sheet of Glass Design" term merely refers to the way the outer glass extends to the very edges of the TV, instead of disappearing beneath a traditional plastic bezel like on the ST60/S60 etc.

And I wonder how many consumers actually know that they can get a step down model which essentially has the same thing...unbelievable, Panasonic. The advantages of that tv disappear more and more. Basically, the consumer pays a premium for an expensive cosmetic process and a filter.

I really want to see someone do a comparison of a calibrated ST60 vs. ZT60. It probably should have happened last weekend, since they're still setting up Kuro panels and there was an ST on the other wall. Let's talk about how the panel that's $2-3k less offers essentially the same performance.

Basically, next year's ST70, which will probably run about $900 at a 50" size, is going to beat a ZT60 or be identical in most picture quality parameters. I know they're running out of improvements to make, but this year was ridiculous.

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post #1354 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tom669 View Post

Most modern PDPs from Samsung are single sheet of glass, it's cheaper to make and has a lower dud panel rate. However they had some major reliability issues with the panels suddenly and randomly cracking during use, causing a sudden loss of image. They eventually sorted it. I'm hoping Panasonic learned from Samsung's issues with sudden cracking.

Actually that's true. Don't think it's been discussed before. I was just going to post that on anther thread where someone said one of the reasons they went with the ZT60 pre-order was the bonded outer glass to the substract. I learned this from a trick Dr. Larry Weber demonstrated at VE's Shootout last Saturday where he used a small flashlight directly on the front panel to show the double layer. Among the plasma TVs only the ZT60 and Samsung F8500 had no reflection back and forth between the two layers.
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post #1355 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:44 PM
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Exactly the reason people buy B&O equipment... No performance difference between that and premium audio gear, but it looks "designer".
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post #1356 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

And I wonder how many consumers actually know that they can get a step down model which essentially has the same thing...unbelievable, Panasonic. The advantages of that tv disappear more and more. Basically, the consumer pays a premium for an expensive cosmetic process and a filter.

I really want to see someone do a comparison of a calibrated ST60 vs. ZT60. It probably should have happened last weekend, since they're still setting up Kuro panels and there was an ST on the other wall. Let's talk about how the panel that's $2-3k less offers essentially the same performance.

Basically, next year's ST70, which will probably run about $900 at a 50" size, is going to beat a ZT60 or be identical in most picture quality parameters. I know they're running out of improvements to make, but this year was ridiculous.

They had the ST60 on another wall. Although it was not on during the Shootout I have seen it before and after the Shootout and the ST60 is dimmer looking in high ambient light (likely due to the less aggressive ambient light filter) and does not share the deep black level of the VT60/ZT60. However, one advantage the ST60 is that it does have a brighter image than the VT60/ZT60, which helps more at night than daytime use.

I'm leaning towards the F8500 for its superior brightness in night and daytime use, it's almost as black as the VT60/ZT60 and has the bonded glass for reduced reflections. I also like the F8500 full charcoal gray metal bezel. Nice new promotion on the F8500 is helping me pull the trigger.
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post #1357 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

They had the ST60 on another wall. Although it was not on during the Shootout I have seen it before and after the Shootout and the ST60 is dimmer looking in high ambient light (likely due to the less aggressive ambient light filter) and does not share the deep black level of the VT60/ZT60. However, one advantage the ST60 is that it does have a brighter image than the VT60/ZT60, which helps more at night than daytime use.

I'm leaning towards the F8500 for its superior brightness in night and daytime use, it's almost as black as the VT60/ZT60 and has the bonded glass for reduced reflections. I also like the F8500 full charcoal gray metal bezel. Nice new promotion on the F8500 is helping me pull the trigger.

I don't like how Panasonic still makes their VT/ZT with thick bezels, making them look like my 5 year old LCD TV. Samsung's thinner bezel does look better.
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post #1358 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

The ZT has the one piece of glass, not the VT.


What i meant is when you look at the tv itself you ha e a seamless glass bezel unlike other models...there is no indent where the glass meets the bezel
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post #1359 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

What i meant is when you look at the tv itself you ha e a seamless glass bezel unlike other models...there is no indent where the glass meets the bezel
Gotcha. I misunderstood.

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post #1360 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 05:13 PM
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i finally got around to seeing the 8500 and VT60 side by side this weekend. The 8500 blew me away, the VT looked dim and washed out even when set to THX bright room. To bad the 8500 has that input lag problem, that is a deal breaker for me. Guess I am going to have to wait till next years models.
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post #1361 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by elbobo19 View Post

i finally got around to seeing the 8500 and VT60 side by side this weekend. The 8500 blew me away, the VT looked dim and washed out even when set to THX bright room. To bad the 8500 has that input lag problem, that is a deal breaker for me. Guess I am going to have to wait till next years models.

Yeah it sucks that a nice and bright panel like the F8500, which would be amazing for gaming, has a bit too much lag to make it worthwhile.

As for the dim VT60....I think the brighter image of F8500 will make it win any casual side-by-side comparison. The eye is drawn more the brightness. But the VT60, viewed in your home, looks better than it does when placed next to a bright display. Not saying the F8500 isnt great, just saying that a brighter display usually wins these comparisons which is why every TV in Best Buy is set to VIVID mode when on display.



I wish some manufacturer would release a few prototype units to some of the people here on AVS, and have them test everything out before the set goes into mass production.
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post #1362 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by elbobo19 View Post

i finally got around to seeing the 8500 and VT60 side by side this weekend. The 8500 blew me away, the VT looked dim and washed out even when set to THX bright room. To bad the 8500 has that input lag problem, that is a deal breaker for me. Guess I am going to have to wait till next years models.
It might just be the brightness factor that got your attention as well as the Samsung's video processing for poor source material. Did you compare using blu rays and was the lighting fair enough to not give the vt60 a handicap? The 8500 will look superior in high ambient lighting.

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post #1363 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by elbobo19 View Post

i finally got around to seeing the 8500 and VT60 side by side this weekend. The 8500 blew me away, the VT looked dim and washed out even when set to THX bright room. To bad the 8500 has that input lag problem, that is a deal breaker for me. Guess I am going to have to wait till next years models.

Hopefully you adjsuted the settings even when in THX bright room, I found taht sometimes the contrast we set "too low" and increasing it helped (when testing out at BB MHT).....
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post #1364 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Famouss View Post

It might just be the brightness factor that got your attention as well as the Samsung's video processing for poor source material. Did you compare using blu rays and was the lighting fair enough to not give the vt60 a handicap? The 8500 will look superior in high ambient lighting.

I turned the 8500 off and the VT still looked dim and washed out all by itself. Lighting was in the magnolia section of a BB, so not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but not terrible either, they keep that section of the store much dimmer than the main floor. My current TV sits opposite my big front window so lighting conditions will never be close to ideal in my house.
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post #1365 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

They had the ST60 on another wall. Although it was not on during the Shootout I have seen it before and after the Shootout and the ST60 is dimmer looking in high ambient light (likely due to the less aggressive ambient light filter) and does not share the deep black level of the VT60/ZT60. However, one advantage the ST60 is that it does have a brighter image than the VT60/ZT60, which helps more at night than daytime use.

I'm leaning towards the F8500 for its superior brightness in night and daytime use, it's almost as black as the VT60/ZT60 and has the bonded glass for reduced reflections. I also like the F8500 full charcoal gray metal bezel. Nice new promotion on the F8500 is helping me pull the trigger.

I was there, too. I was hoping Robert would let them bring the ST60 out for comparison. I like to watch with little to no light, so this whole AR filter thing couldn't mean less to me. From what the calibrators were saying, the blacks between all 3 models were a wash.

The F8500 was great to watch all night. The blacks are so close on the Sammy and Panasonic sets, that the ability to hit 40-45fL calibrated is kind of the reason to pick this set.
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post #1366 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by elbobo19 View Post

I turned the 8500 off and the VT still looked dim and washed out all by itself. Lighting was in the magnolia section of a BB, so not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but not terrible either, they keep that section of the store much dimmer than the main floor. My current TV sits opposite my big front window so lighting conditions will never be close to ideal in my house.

Oh definitely terrible condition to compare TVs. All Panasonic's look dim and washed out inside Magnolias. This as been the case for as long as I can remember. The brighter TV always looks better. The feed they use don't help either. You truly have to get them home to appreciate these plasmas.
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post #1367 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Oh definitely terrible condition to compare TVs. All Panasonic's look dim and washed out inside Magnolias. This as been the case for as long as I can remember. The brighter TV always looks better. The feed they use don't help either. You truly have to get them home to appreciate these plasmas.
Those vivid LED tvs look so cringe worthy in the Magnolias.tongue.gif

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post #1368 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

Yeah it sucks that a nice and bright panel like the F8500, which would be amazing for gaming, has a bit too much lag to make it worthwhile.

As for the dim VT60....I think the brighter image of F8500 will make it win any casual side-by-side comparison. The eye is drawn more the brightness. But the VT60, viewed in your home, looks better than it does when placed next to a bright display. Not saying the F8500 isnt great, just saying that a brighter display usually wins these comparisons which is why every TV in Best Buy is set to VIVID mode when on display.



I wish some manufacturer would release a few prototype units to some of the people here on AVS, and have them test everything out before the set goes into mass production.

I would agree with everything you just said above. The F8500 is a great set but clearly not better then the VT60. There is a few things that i did not like about this set . One was the stand and would not care if it was mounted on the wall. The gray bezel and the glass not being seamless with the bezel. Like 95 percent of the people out there think a bright picture is great and that is why i think LCD,LED sets fool so many people into buying thrm. No one really knows what a accurate picture should look like or they have never seen a properly calibrated set. The F8500 looked great and blew away every LED set. I am sure the 3d is fantastic due to the higher ftl brightness, however to me the VT60 looks like a more pleasing set to look at due to the seamless glass construction. The inky blacks made the contrast stand out and objects that should look bright became brighter as the background displayed that black in the background. The F8500 showed alot of detail that i did not see with thr VT60 but i feel that if the set is using out of the box settings even with a bluray picture you will end up just being fooled like all the LEDs we have seen inthe past due to the increase in brightness. I do not know what it was but my eyes noticed that the F8500 had motion issues where as the VT60 picture moved seamlessly with the picture displaying inky blacks and felt very pleasing to my eyes. Both sets were on vivid while running men in black on direct tv with probably serveral cable splitters . The VT60 65" showed no artifacts on the bluray picture demo disc or on the direct tv movie of men in black. The F8500 i saw was a 50" and the 64" and to me there was a ton of artifacts and i do not know how to explain it but judder or motion issues on the F8500 as well...The set was extreamly bright and did show lots of detail however the black levels looked like crap compared to the vivid VT60. To me if you are the type of person who watches bluray movies at home at night with very little light the VT60 will outshine the F8500. During the day with sun in your room glare everywhere you will get a nice bright picture with the samsung F8500 but will have to deal with artifacts, motion , judder issues with poor response time . From what i have seen seems like the VT60 is a better overall set and while viewing poor signals other then 1080p then the F8500 .
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post #1369 of 1489 Old 05-19-2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

You truly have to get them home to appreciate these plasmas.
So true, on the flip side if these units where fully calibrated, it would be a bad thing for the storefront. Most would want their TV to look as good as what they saw in the store at no extra cost.
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post #1370 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

These shootouts always are the most expensive displays typically not what the average consumer will purchase in this economy. So even though I have the VT50, I would vote for the s60 or st60 for the general public.
the s60 is an incredible value at the 65 inch size.

The shootout wasn't about what the general public would buy. It was for the enthusiast who is looking for the best in picture quality.

If you want a shootout for the best value, you're looking in the wrong place. It's actually not a bad idea but I don't see the money in it for retailers.

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post #1371 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 07:47 AM
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If you want a shootout for the best value, you're looking in the wrong place. It's actually not a bad idea but I don't see the money in it for retailers.
Indeed, a shootout is intended to discover the best performer, through raw observation but also through objective means that can be measured. CNET, Consumer Reports, etc. include "value" as a metric in their evaluations. But what constitutes value varies by individual, which is part of the reason so many people take exception to ratings given by those companies. You would have thought the world ended when the ST60 was awarded 5 stars.

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post #1372 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 09:00 AM
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Exactly, hard to define great value and it can start to get gray. Some people would claim the S60 or very limited S64 is a better value than the ST60, etc. and on and on it goes.

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post #1373 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 11:07 AM
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Anybody have an update of when the videos from the shootout will be posted in YouTube? They were supposed to come out this past weekend last I read.
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post #1374 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 12:29 PM
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I realize I am risking reopening a can of worms here, but hopefully not.

What would folks in general consider "high ambient light" for purposes of evaluating shootout results?

For example, my situation: the TV will be in a living room with floor to ceiling windows, but we have heavy tree cover. The room is generally somewhat dim because of the tree cover and there is no direct light on the TV - at its highest point midday, we get some beams at an angle from behind and to the side of where the TV sits. It is certainly not light-controlled, but with rare exceptions, I'd rank the general light level as a cloudy afternoon.

Playing around with the old TV we're upgrading from (a several-year-old Samsung 30" or so LCD), I can set the brightness down to 20, and the picture is watchable even during the day.

I am trying to decide between the ZT60 and the F8500 for the above environment. Is that "high ambient light" when not watching at night? Or is this dim enough that "high ambient light" shouldn't really factor into my decision?
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post #1375 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 01:09 PM
 
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Save some money and go with the F8500 . The tv at stock settings blew away all other LEDs on the wall that i saw.
The ZT anti glare filter is not much better then the VT60 and the F8500 will output more light showing you more detail.

but there is a few minor drawbacks to owning this set and i am sure others will reply with plus and minuses vs the upper tier panasonic line
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post #1376 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 03:21 PM
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We have already determined that the ZT has the most effective filter by far......

So much mis-information which opinions passed as facts...
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post #1377 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

We have already determined that the ZT has the most effective filter by far......

So much mis-information which opinions passed as facts...

I'm not sure what facts you are using to support your conclusion, my impression was that the filter made a nominal difference. The VT60 and the ZT60 look almost identical side-by-side, something that the pros all noted. I spent plenty of time performing a critical comparison of the VT60 and ZT60 at the Friday night shootout.
The filters are quite similar. That's why the two Panasonic plasma panels tied in just about every category.

The ZT60's filter is a bit more aggressive and as a consequence the ZT60 is not as bright in the very circumstances where a more aggressive filter might be desirable-namely rooms that are not totally dark. The "gapless" construction touted for the ZT60 made no perceptible difference in image quality.

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post #1378 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 04:49 PM
 
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We have already determined that the ZT has the most effective filter by far......

So much mis-information which opinions passed as facts...


Kuro is dead

And more from cnet review released todayon the ZT60.....not much of improvement over a VT60

Picture quality
I was frankly surprised when our initial look at the ZT60 revealed essentially identical picture quality to the VT60 in a dark room. Now that I've had the opportunity to compare them both after aging and calibration, that impression is confirmed: the two high-end Panasonics deliver basically the same picture, including the same black levels, contrast, color and video processing, in dark home theater environments. The only difference arises when the lights come up. In a bright room the ZT60 maintains black levels and reduces reflections better than the VT60.

Speaking of "ever," both Panasonics also outperformed my in-house Pioneer Kuro plasma. Yes, I have seen other Kuros come closer to these Panasonics, but as far as I'm concerned, with review samples I have on-hand, the ZT and VT are both ultimately better than the Kuro. And since the ZT is better than the VT in bright rooms, it is the all-around best performing TV ever tested by CNET.

Click the image at the right to see the picture settings used in the review and to read more about how this TV’s picture controls worked during calibration.

Editors' Note: For the purposes of this review, Panasonic sent me another Pioneer Kuro, a 60-inch PRO-151FD manufactured in March 2009, ostensibly to help prove that the ZT60 was a superior performer. Unfortunately the Panasonic-supplied Kuro review sample didn't perform as well as I expected, or even as well as CNET's older Kuro (the 50-inch PRO-111FD I've been using as a reference since 2008). The 60-incher showed lighter black levels and a few other issues, which were serious enough that I don't consider it representative of the Kuro breed. For that reason I left it out of the comparison below, with the exception of select bright-room tests. Of course I did keep CNET's older PRO-111FD, which is still entirely representative of the breed, in the mix.
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post #1379 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 05:11 PM
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Well the good news is, just to say it again, the VT60, ZT60, and F8500 are all great units and one can not go wrong with whatever they pic.
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post #1380 of 1489 Old 05-20-2013, 05:14 PM
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imagic, CSIG1001 and CP, three very good posts. The VT60 and ZT60 looked almost identical at VE's Shootout. In some scenes you could see the advantage of a brighter image on the lower priced VT60, but otherwise they had the same image quality. And today it's also now confirmed by CNET.

Why spend more money on a ZT60 when you can get a VT60 for about $800 less and have more outlets available to buy one? And you get the pop up camera and better speaker system that are missing from the ZT60. For me I'm going with the VT60 or Samsung F8500. Still not sure which way to go.
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